1. #1

    Is Crit rate viable for ele shaman?

    So i'd like to try to build Haste + Crit instead of Haste + Mastery today. I see how boomkin's build on haste crit (i know the reason is for the starsurge proc), but with such high crit, its also means more crit on every spell count. And i wonder, with our crit damage is 250% of normal damage today, isn't it make crit considerable to build? i know the proc chance on mastery is pretty high, but its still RnG. Any insight?

  2. #2
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    The main reason Crit is generally lower in value for Elemental is because we get automatic criticals with Lava Burst. On live, on a target with Flame Shock, in 5.2, on any target. While we do get increased crit damage, such a large portion of our damage is automatically at 100% crit that we get a lower result.

    The increased crit damage does mean that Crit isn't terrible, either, though, it just usually doesn't surpass the value of Haste or Mastery.

  3. #3
    Mechagnome Eruionmel's Avatar
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    No, you should not try to build around it. Like Endus said, it's not terrible, but you certainly don't want to take it over mastery. Avoid it when you can, but it's not a problem if you do get it.
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  4. #4
    The reason the increased crit damage exists in the first place is simply so that crit isn't completely terrible. It's already the lowest stat, so imagine how bad it would be if it only did normal crit damage? As it is now, it's the worst stat but not to the point that crit gear is insta-pass.

    Besides, ele mastery is practically crit if you think about it. You don't get the big pretty numbers, yeah, but ultimately it's a chance to have almost double damage, much like crit.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The main reason Crit is generally lower in value for Elemental is because we get automatic criticals with Lava Burst. On live, on a target with Flame Shock, in 5.2, on any target. While we do get increased crit damage, such a large portion of our damage is automatically at 100% crit that we get a lower result.

    The increased crit damage does mean that Crit isn't terrible, either, though, it just usually doesn't surpass the value of Haste or Mastery.
    i remember reading a blue post that crit damage does NOT scale with crit rating. hence lowering the value even more

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by shammypie View Post
    i remember reading a blue post that crit damage does NOT scale with crit rating. hence lowering the value even more
    Endus' "While we do get increased crit damage" refers to our natural 250% damage crits, not extra damage with extra crit rating which I think you confused it with.

    When in doubt, sim it, and you'll see that Haste and Mastery beat Crit on single-target. Interestingly, on AOE simming I get very high Crit ratings.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Michelangelo View Post
    Interestingly, on AOE simming I get very high Crit ratings.
    Thats just the way it should be. If you have many targets you wont be using Lava Bursts. You will drop a magma totem and use Glyphed chain lightning.. Or use some other AoE of your choice. You will get full benefit from your crit rating.

    But; Crit is terrible for ele shaman. I have 40%+ of damage done on a single target boss being auto-crits from Lava Bursts. This means that high crit raiting will only benefit 60% of my damage done (fulmination, lava shock, ligthining bolts etc).

    This is Normal Spirit kings 10 man, my damage:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...&s=2266&e=2667
    Last edited by Slush; 2013-02-28 at 09:06 AM.

  8. #8
    Thanks for the input guys! I haven't simmed it myself. But i kinda curious about how's the ouput on the real raiding situation. And yea, i reckon that our single target today is heavily topped by Lava Burst. I was kinda thinking, with higher crit, LB would catching up. Still on second position, but not with that much difference. So it seems Haste + Mastery is still the best build.

  9. #9
    Dreadlord zenga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slush View Post
    But; Crit is terrible for ele shaman. I have 40%+ of damage done on a single target boss being auto-crits from Lava Bursts. This means that high crit raiting will only benefit 60% of my damage done (fulmination, lava shock, ligthining bolts etc).

    This is Normal Spirit kings 10 man, my damage:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/8...&s=2266&e=2667
    By that logic and from that same log mastery affects 65% of your damage, yet it's often our best stat. Like others said, crit is NOT terrible for ele, it's just not as good as haste or mastery. Crit does affect your lava bursts, due to clearcasting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michelangelo View Post
    Endus' "While we do get increased crit damage" refers to our natural 250% damage crits, not extra damage with extra crit rating which I think you confused it with.
    Pretty sure he means the extra damage we do while in clearcasting state (which comes from crits).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Michelangelo View Post
    Endus' "While we do get increased crit damage" refers to our natural 250% damage crits, not extra damage with extra crit rating which I think you confused it with.

    When in doubt, sim it, and you'll see that Haste and Mastery beat Crit on single-target. Interestingly, on AOE simming I get very high Crit ratings.
    On the AOE part, crit will come in closer in value since CL is a 1.5 second cast by default, thus not benefiting as much from haste as our single target rotation/priority list would (LB and EB notably).

    Also, as we get further along into the expansion, crit value will rise as we acquire more and more haste via gear. Enough to warrant gemming/enchanting/reforging for crit? Probably not...it would require us to be in the neighborhood of 30-35% haste from gear for that to become a possibility.

    Disclaimer: That last quip about crit is purely speculative, based on having checked stat weights of my own while under BL effects, so take it for what you will.

  11. #11
    but when she we start valuing crit over haste? because of the diff haste caps. like at 50%-100% haste, its value is much lower than 0-50% haste.

    or matter what is haste values under 100% better than crit?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by orderschvank View Post
    but when she we start valuing crit over haste? because of the diff haste caps. like at 50%-100% haste, its value is much lower than 0-50% haste.

    or matter what is haste values under 100% better than crit?
    Best recommendation for that possibility would be to import your own gear into Simcraft and run it...there's a bazillion different factors that could come into play as to if/when you should favor crit over haste.

    I would venture to guess maybe by the end of the next raid tier (the one after ToT), it could be a possibility. Again, I'm speculating here, so take it with a grain of salt.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by orderschvank View Post
    but when she we start valuing crit over haste? because of the diff haste caps. like at 50%-100% haste, its value is much lower than 0-50% haste.

    or matter what is haste values under 100% better than crit?
    Once you hit 5-6k haste you start seeing haste and crit get a lot closer. You just have to sim it out.
    The legendary meta is simming to be a slight dps increase, with that I wouldn't be shocked if Ele stopped getting haste at the 4203 bloodlust GCD cap. But I'd have to see the sims, and how they buffed the meta for Ele (proc chance boost?) to avoid making the meta be responsible for a 5% dps loss for ele relative to affliction. If they buff the meta for Ele.

    The thing about AoE is... when you are pure AoE'ing, you are doing way more damage with spells that "have a chance to crit" than usual. You go from 60% of your damage being impacted by crit rating to 100% of your damage being impacted by crit rating. That's a huge boost. Mastery though, if you are attacking targets, gets about the same boost since it'll have 5 33% of normal chances to proc.

  14. #14
    ya, reforged out of as much haste as possible im sitting at 6852 haste lol

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