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  1. #1
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    Ret's problem is...holy?

    Pretty much the issue in essence according to the blue posts on the frontpage. Certainly not a problem that other hybrids such as Monks/Druids encounter, but now that we're about to begin one of the penultimate patches of the expansion, i'm starting to think this is both an issue that won't be solved during this expansion, and that will require quite significant overall reworking of the Paladin class...again.
    "Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you." - Grand Admiral Proudmoore

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Pretty much the issue in essence according to the blue posts on the frontpage. Certainly not a problem that other hybrids such as Monks/Druids encounter, but now that we're about to begin one of the penultimate patches of the expansion, i'm starting to think this is both an issue that won't be solved during this expansion, and that will require quite significant overall reworking of the Paladin class...again.
    No, it's complete bullshit and I'll tell you why: Most dedicated Ret players enjoy the playstyle of melee dps. Duh, right? My paladin has been shelved for a long time, but at one point I was a very above average PvE holy paladin, and a pretty decent PvP ret paladin. You know what I did when Ret got the nerf truncheon so hard that it was nearly unplayable in Cataclysm? I fucking rolled a different class for pvp, that's what. I didn't go "oh well might as well be holy for pvp" because I enjoy smashing faces a hell of a lot more than I enjoyed waving my hands around and hoping my partners did the work while I ran around pillars for ten minutes. Battlegrounds aren't too bad, but Arena healing is just painful.

    Some people enjoy that shit. I personally do not, and I'd say if at this point you don't realize that the current balancing team has a real bias against Ret paladins(and ESPECIALLY in pvp), you're rather blind.

  3. #3
    I am Murloc! Alenarien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tjanson View Post
    Some people enjoy that shit. I personally do not, and I'd say if at this point you don't realize that the current balancing team has a real bias against Ret paladins(and ESPECIALLY in pvp), you're rather blind.
    Blizzard saying that the reason Ret is bad is because Holy is so good, and Blizzard having a bias against Ret, are not mutually exclusive concepts.

    The problem in my eyes is both that they never think Holy is good enough (and thus buff it to the point where it's inevitably the best healer), and that they've been paranoid at least since TBC about buffing Ret in fear of making it too strong; whilst at the same time having permitted Warrior/Rogue/DK to be some of the most consistently strong melee.
    Last edited by Alenarien; 2013-03-02 at 12:05 PM.
    "Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you." - Grand Admiral Proudmoore

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral Hextor's Avatar
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    Rogue is a joke ATM. But come 5.2, we'll sink even lower on that scale. We can only laugh at warriors. -60s on wings is meh.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Blizzard saying that the reason Ret is bad is because Holy is so good, and Blizzard having a bias against Ret, are not mutually exclusive concepts.

    The problem in my eyes is both that they never think Holy is good enough (and thus buff it to the point where it's inevitably the best healer), and that they've been paranoid at least since TBC about buffing Ret in fear of making it too strong; whilst at the same time having permitted Warrior/Rogue/DK to be some of the most consistently strong melee.
    Sorry, I wasn't all that clear. I should be sleeping right now, really. What really started the backlash against Ret was the 3.0 patch right before WotLK's launch. Ret wasn't really that great in BC, but there were a ton of specs that weren't either, I can't say there was a particular bias. After they reworked - and drastically buffed Ret, everything changed. Everything hit so hard and wasn't mitigated by armor at all because it was almost all holy damage, and you saw Ret alts coming out of deep storage so fast it was like Paladins were a Biblical plague. Seriously epic nerfs and qq proceeded, and Blizzard started openly mocking paladins and the people that played them. It was great, really. We even got a cool NPC named after us.

    As to Warrior/Rogue/DK... the "right" spec to pvp with is almost always changing for Rogues, and DKs go back and forth a bit as well. Blizzard really does think that it's "okay" to have a class completely change they way they play as long as one of their specs is viable. Which is a little less of a change for Rogues or Warriors as opposed to Paladins or Shamans, who need to completely revamp their choice of role in order to be competitive.

    Holy really hasn't always consistently been the best PvP healer. They're usually pretty decent, but Blizzard just gave paladins a bunch of new tools that really only fit into Holy's toolbox well. It's not really surprising though. They're not great at predicting the impact their changes have.

  6. #6
    Ret's problem is that absolutely everything that defined Ret was given to Holy and not vice versa.

    It's a 100% buff to Holy and an actual NERF for Ret.


    PoJ and LAotl were both Ret, now you can only pick one of two.
    Repentance and Fist of Justice were for Ret, now you can only pick one of two.
    Sacred Shield and Selfless Healer were for Ret, now you can only get one of them.
    Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger were for ret, now you can only have one of two.

    There is no logical, explainable reason where this could be considered fair for a spec that has always lived under the shadow of Holy, as if they needed help.


    The only solution is to nerf Holy counterpart talents or buff Ret's.. in order to make them clearly distinguishable and don't be like Holy can do the same.

    EG:
    LAotL if you judge someone 15 yards away or more it casts a free Emancipate. PoJ your speed can't be reduced below 75%.
    Fist becomes physical and knocks down. Repentance is instant cast.
    Sacred Shield is a one time big absorb you can put on anyone, can't be dispelled, 60 sec CD. <- (big buff for ret desirability)

    shit like that, etc.
    Last edited by Veliane; 2013-03-02 at 01:45 PM.

  7. #7

    RETRYBUTION : Victim of the new talent tree :(

    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Blizzard saying that the reason Ret is bad is because Holy is so good, and Blizzard having a bias against Ret, are not mutually exclusive concepts.
    GC must stop balancing Ret arround Holy, maybe ......... all is Divine Shield fault, everyone hates OOMG BUBBLE, and says that is OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    Ret's problem is that absolutely everything that defined Ret was given to Holy and not vice versa.

    It's a 100% buff to Holy and an actual NERF for Ret.

    There is no logical, explainable reason where this could be considered fair for a spec that has always lived under the shadow of Holy, as if they needed help.


    The only solution is to nerf Holy counterpart talents or buff Ret's.. in order to make them clearly distinguishable and don't be like Holy can do the same.

    EG:
    LAotL if you judge someone 15 yards away or more it casts a free Emancipate. PoJ your speed can't be reduced below 75%.
    Fist becomes physical and knocks down. Repentance is instant cast.
    Sacred Shield is a one time big absorb you can put on anyone, can't be dispelled, 60 sec CD. <- (big buff for ret desirability)

    shit like that, etc.
    With the implementation of the new talent tree, hurt alot Retribution spec. (We use to have ALL Tier 5 talents as core spells, y`know)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Icecold3000 View Post
    With the implementation of the new talent tree, hurt alot Retribution spec. (We use to have ALL Tier 5 talents as core spells, y`know)
    thats what hurt several class/specs, like rogues, was blizz putting one spec's important passive talents all spread out in the new 5.0 talent tree.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Alenarien View Post
    Blizzard saying that the reason Ret is bad is because Holy is so good, and Blizzard having a bias against Ret, are not mutually exclusive concepts.
    If Blizzard deleted Holy paladins from the game, ret would still be held back by the fact that it's a true hybrid and few people are good at playing true hybrids.

    Blizz need to make ret a specialist DPS spec with far less healing and utility for allies in order to truly make it work in WoW at the moment.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    If Blizzard deleted Holy paladins from the game, ret would still be held back by the fact that it's a true hybrid and few people are good at playing true hybrids.
    The problem is that Blizzard has two different competing images for Paladins. One is that of Holy Paladins, and the other is melee Paladins, that being Prot and Ret. From the very start, Paladins in beta had Crusader Strike and Holy Strike. Then suddenly those abilities were removed for Seals. Seal of Crusader was our dps Seal, and even that was further nerfed into useless. Holy was never nerfed, and was the only spec to have an attack, which is Holy Shock. Since Vanilla Holy Paladins have never been bad. Prot didn't really exist until TBC when they got a taunt.

    To this day they admit that Holy Paladins are over powered, but do little to nerf them. If you look at our glyphs and talents, it's all geared towards Holy Paladins. Holy contradicts that Paladins are a melee class. The only reasons people spec Holy are because.

    #1 It's a very powerful healing spec.
    #2 Leveled a Paladin only to find that everyone wants you Holy.
    #3 Actually likes to heal as a Paladin.

    Blizz need to make ret a specialist DPS spec with far less healing and utility for allies in order to truly make it work in WoW at the moment.
    One developer explained that the reason why Retribution has healing abilities is because they want to remind you that Paladins are a healing class. Even though in reality it's a melee class, and in most games they're depicted as tanks. Even in their own lore, Paladins are a two handed wielding melee class with some healing capabilities.

    If they really wanted to get things right, then a Holy Paladin should melee. Have their own special strikes that heal. Like an attack that you can use on allies, but can do damage, just not like Ret Paladins can. Not Holy Shock which is a ranged spell that can also heal. But the core mechanic of a healer is to sit in the back of the raid and heal, which would make it extremely difficult to bring a Holy Paladin into raids.

  11. #11
    If they really wanted to get things right, then a Holy Paladin should melee. Have their own special strikes that heal. Like an attack that you can use on allies, but can do damage, just not like Ret Paladins can. Not Holy Shock which is a ranged spell that can also heal. But the core mechanic of a healer is to sit in the back of the raid and heal, which would make it extremely difficult to bring a Holy Paladin into raids.
    They managed to pull it off with Monk healers.
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  12. #12
    My point is they don't need to nerf holy to fix ret. They just need to make ret a non-hybrid specialist.

    Take away abilities like Hand of Sac and Hand of Prot and healing for allies and give ret more offensive abilities instead.

    They will *have* to do it if rated BGs become the norm in PVP, or make healing passive AOE healing that is caused by damage dealing or something.

    I played in the original beta. I remember Tom Chilton later saying that they wanted paladins to be melee holy warriors with utility for allies, but they "evolved" in a different direction, and because holy was just more efficient they went with it.

    Paladins refused to accept that and in season 3 we started seeing a change in direction. Wrath really turned things around.


    If you guys actually want to play ret as a hybrid then I suggest that you forget about rated BGs and stick to arena where it can work. Ret is not a specialist. Ret is a "support spec". That means you pressure while helping allies. If you are good at that then stick with ret.

  13. #13
    The problem is that other melee are much better at actually "being melee" than Ret is. And ontop of that Holy brings pretty much everything that a Ret Paladin does.

    So why bring a Ret paladin when a Warrior or Dk is better and taking a Holy paladin gives you the same utility as Ret?

  14. #14
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    I'm the one who had that tweet chat with GC and sadly the game isn't only balanced on how good/bad a class is doing but how much it's played regardless of the level of "skill" it's played on. Take that as you want it... I read it as play the least played class and you'll win.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    They managed to pull it off with Monk healers.
    You don't have to fistweave to heal and you will wipe the raid over and over again if you tried to on several fights. Also fistweaving in arenas...LOL

  16. #16
    like always, blizz gotta be a joke

    i wonder if that'd fly with other classes, too
    hpriest is only bad at healing because spriest is too good, if spriest wasn't good, everyone would be holy!

  17. #17
    they want us to play holy, its not that they cant fix ret, its that they cba to.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by peachtree View Post
    hpriest is only bad at healing because spriest is too good, if spriest wasn't good, everyone would be holy!
    Holy Priests are replaced with Holy Paladins, and yes Shadow is so good that Priests rarely do go Holy or Disc in PvP. Fact is, a Shadow Priest can also heal very well, when needed, but can dps very well when needed. In comparison, a Holy Priest can heal but can't also do good damage.

    Shadow Priests are so good at off healing that PvP power was knee jerk nerfed so that you can't get damage AND healing. They're undoing that nerf a little, and going after Shadow in patch 5.2, as they should have done. Before 5.2, whatever a Holy or Disc Priest can do, a Shadow Priest can also do plus damage. Sounds awfully a lot like Ret vs Holy Paladins doesn't it?

    Rets Paladins do need something to separate themselves from Holy. Even though a Holy Paladin can't do good damage like a Ret, healing is just far more in demand and powerful. Once Shadow is properly nerfed, Priests will migrate over to Holy or Disc, cause damage vs healing, healing always wins.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Dukenukemx View Post
    Holy Priests are replaced with Holy Paladins, and yes Shadow is so good that Priests rarely do go Holy or Disc in PvP. Fact is, a Shadow Priest can also heal very well, when needed, but can dps very well when needed. In comparison, a Holy Priest can heal but can't also do good damage.

    Shadow Priests are so good at off healing that PvP power was knee jerk nerfed so that you can't get damage AND healing. They're undoing that nerf a little, and going after Shadow in patch 5.2, as they should have done. Before 5.2, whatever a Holy or Disc Priest can do, a Shadow Priest can also do plus damage. Sounds awfully a lot like Ret vs Holy Paladins doesn't it?

    Rets Paladins do need something to separate themselves from Holy. Even though a Holy Paladin can't do good damage like a Ret, healing is just far more in demand and powerful. Once Shadow is properly nerfed, Priests will migrate over to Holy or Disc, cause damage vs healing, healing always wins.
    haha ok yea once spriests nerfed, the hpriests in pvp will just come rolling in

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliane View Post
    Ret's problem is that absolutely everything that defined Ret was given to Holy and not vice versa.

    It's a 100% buff to Holy and an actual NERF for Ret.


    PoJ and LAotl were both Ret, now you can only pick one of two.
    Repentance and Fist of Justice were for Ret, now you can only pick one of two.
    Sacred Shield and Selfless Healer were for Ret, now you can only get one of them.
    Divine Purpose and Holy Avenger were for ret, now you can only have one of two.

    There is no logical, explainable reason where this could be considered fair for a spec that has always lived under the shadow of Holy, as if they needed help.


    The only solution is to nerf Holy counterpart talents or buff Ret's.. in order to make them clearly distinguishable and don't be like Holy can do the same.

    EG:
    LAotL if you judge someone 15 yards away or more it casts a free Emancipate. PoJ your speed can't be reduced below 75%.
    Fist becomes physical and knocks down. Repentance is instant cast.
    Sacred Shield is a one time big absorb you can put on anyone, can't be dispelled, 60 sec CD. <- (big buff for ret desirability)

    shit like that, etc.
    Yeah it blows my mind how they made the new talent tree 80% old Ret abilities. How do you miss something like that, or notice it and think its ok.

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