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  1. #1

    5.2 Resto changes

    I have been doing some testing with Sould of the forest for resto and comparing it with Incarnation: Tree form. I am unsure where to obtain the t14(if you can) so i am testing this with full s13 pvp gear, but it seems to me that this is 100x better with it giving me double the amount of ticks on rejuvy pretty much and thats not even taking into account the haste i would have from PvE gear. Also using it for WG

    Any chances on some feedback from people who have been testing this as I can not see Tree form being better then this when you can only use it twice a fight in most cases.

  2. #2
    Theres alot of "it depends" around Soul of the Forest.

    With SotF you have to, more often then not, delay your Swiftmends so you can use the haste boost to its maximum potential.
    Wich ultimately isn't the best thing to do, delaying Swiftmend or delaying Wild Growth to align them.
    Unless there are consistant bursts of AoE going out, Incarnation is still the better alternative. Its not only a throughput CD, but is also mana conservative.
    Wild Growth is really the only reason to take SotF and they have awkward CD differences. Rejuv still overheals to much.

    Fights usually have just phases of raid damage, wich allows you to rotate Incarnation and Tranquility.
    I'm sure SotF will become more viable in 5.2 when they increase the haste gain, but i still prefer Incarnation, unless fights actually have considerable raidwide damage and you use Wild Growth on CD without the majority of it overhealing.
    "There's never enough time to do all the nothing you want" - Calvin and Hobbes

  3. #3
    T14 4 set bonus, and not using the WG Glyph can bring it near enough inline, however its still not perfect, the only fights that this is useful on is 3rd boss MSV and Tsulong, the rest is Incarnation spec.

    In 5.2 expect to see more SotF specs coming out.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by sexfacejonny View Post
    T14 4 set bonus, and not using the WG Glyph can bring it near enough inline, however its still not perfect, the only fights that this is useful on is 3rd boss MSV and Tsulong, the rest is Incarnation spec.
    The use of WG glyph is mandatory anyway, and with T14 4p and WG glyph, the cooldowns fit nicely (no need to delay anything) so that you get the perfect rotation for constant AoE damage fights. Right now I would advise SotF for almost all fights.

    Best example for constant damage is Heroic Will of the Emperor. Anyone not using SotF here is doing it wrong.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    The use of WG glyph is mandatory anyway, and with T14 4p and WG glyph, the cooldowns fit nicely (no need to delay anything) so that you get the perfect rotation for constant AoE damage fights. Right now I would advise SotF for almost all fights.

    Best example for constant damage is Heroic Will of the Emperor. Anyone not using SotF here is doing it wrong.
    But for the next tier, SM cd would go back to 15 seconds without T14 4P. I think this makes SotF bad for constant damage as it essential makes WG a 15 seconds CD spell.
    Last edited by insanedruid; 2013-02-28 at 05:47 AM.

  6. #6
    THanks for the feedback.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    The use of WG glyph is mandatory anyway,
    Can you explain your logic on this? And are you referring to 10 or 25?

  8. #8
    You really have to just use the ol' thinker. If you're dealing with pretty consistent AoE damage that isn't easily healed to full, SotF is very strong, and will only get stronger in 5.2. With the lowered Haste breakpoint, you'll specifically gear around it, and your sustained group healing will be very powerful and quite efficient. On the other hand, if you're struggling with mana longevity, ToL is a great conservation tool, and if you're struggling with burst healing in a given phase, ToL is a potent cooldown. You really have to look at a given fight and decide what's going to be best for you, not just run with the same thing all the time.

    On a side note, is Force of Nature going to be worth a damn? I'd love to just have a 1 minute CD that gave me a nice boost, for certain situations.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by NightZero88 View Post
    Can you explain your logic on this? And are you referring to 10 or 25?
    I can only speak for 10s because I don't raid in 25 man, but I guess it's even more true there.

    I guess everyone agrees that with the WG glyph, when WG hits 6 targets, it's more HPS and more HPM than without. (If you doubt that, we can get back to it, but let's just assume this as a fact for now. I remember this was proven with math about one expansion ago.)

    The only remaining question is, does it (mostly) hit 6 targets in 10 mans? With the (not so) new large range, and with a bit clever targeting, it should. Let's look at a log:
    Will of the Emperor heroic (easy to evaluate because I'm doing AoE rotation for the whole fight): 43 SotF gains -> 43 WG casts, Log shows 258 applications. 258/43 = 6. That's 100%.

    So the question is, can you target your WG so that 6 people will be hit? Then the glyph is a definite gain. If not, you should work on your targeting, not remove the glyph.

  10. #10
    Thaldor, I'm not arguing your point by any means, but just curious....are you sure none of those hits are on pets? I often do not feel i'm getting 6 targets every time in 10 man, although I'm not into heroics yet and I know that will make a big difference, plus probably not as good at targeting as you.

    Also, while I agree the glyph has been proven to be better for 5.0/5.1, I think the argument is that it might be worth not using it because SotF will be so good at 70% haste that it will be better to use it and WG at with the reduced CD. I honestly have no clue because I havne't seen the analysis, but I know the glyph wasn't a huge difference in results from non-glyphed, so the SotF change could potentially change the dynamics. I'd love to see the math on this when people who know how to do it attempt these calcs.

  11. #11
    Yes, some of the hits are on pets, but very few as WG prioritises players over pets. This is also easy to see in the logs; in the fight mentioned above, 48 out of 3258 ticks went on pets - that's 1.5%.

    The argument with SotF in 5.2 can go either way, actually. The reason to not use the glyph would be to make the CD of WG exactly half of Swiftmend's CD to use it rotationally. This would however still mean holding off WG for a bit, waiting for SM, pretty often. On the other hand, SotF is stronger when used with glyphed WG, since it would give 5 more extra ticks (the 6th application going from 8 to 13 ticks). I'm not sure which way I'll go, as a SotF rejuv on the tank isn't that bad either.

    The math behind the glyph is actually pretty simple. Assuming using WG on CD, look at a 40s window in which you can cast 5 non-glyphed WGs or 4 glyphed ones. Now we count the number of applications:
    No Glyph: 5*5 = 25, using one more GCD (and mana)
    Glyph: 4*6 = 24
    So basically, without the glyph you spend one GCD (and WG manacost) for a single WG hot application. It's easy to see that if you put one Rejuv in that GCD, you use less mana, and heal a lot more with the glyph.

  12. #12
    If we take your logs no wg hits are on pets and i never remember a wg to go to pets instead of a player. I am doing mostly 25man . Sotf build can be useful everywhere not only in 1-2 fights measuring/balancing your stats correctly (not too much spirit) it can be be very helpful instead of waiting 2 or 3 (max) times in a fight to pop a cd. In combination with heart of wild talent and lack of disc priests it provide nice hps . By the way has anyone noticed their mushrooms to provide more healing ? they seem to produce at least 1-2% more constantly in my overall healing in logs in last 2 weeks.

    Sotf without the glyph is interesting also to play around and might be more interesting for next patch.

    p.s. if only healing touch spell was better so we could use it more it could actually help the rotation .

  13. #13
    Blademaster Juvenate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    On a side note, is Force of Nature going to be worth a damn? I'd love to just have a 1 minute CD that gave me a nice boost, for certain situations.
    It's better but is still inferior to Incarnation and Soul of the Forest in HPS by about 15% if used on CD.
    I blog about Resto Druid stuff at WTS Heals.

  14. #14
    isnt depending on casts (haste therefore plays a role) ? How many casts they have on ptr with 3043 haste and how much with new sotf haste caps? If i remember correctly they had 6 to 7 casts per tree. If value of that has gonne up plus the increase healing it might not be that bad and perhaps lifesaver in certain situations!!! iceblock + treants healing is one that pops in mind (if healing is good)

  15. #15
    Stood in the Fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    Y
    The math behind the glyph is actually pretty simple. Assuming using WG on CD, look at a 40s window in which you can cast 5 non-glyphed WGs or 4 glyphed ones. Now we count the number of applications:
    No Glyph: 5*5 = 25, using one more GCD (and mana)
    Glyph: 4*6 = 24
    So basically, without the glyph you spend one GCD (and WG manacost) for a single WG hot application. It's easy to see that if you put one Rejuv in that GCD, you use less mana, and heal a lot more with the glyph.
    You can actually cast 6 / 5 wild growths in a 40 second window making 30 applications each.

    In general you'll see less effective healing and more over healing with from the 30 applications with the glyph than without. Usually you'll want to swap it in and out depending on the fight.

  16. #16
    Blademaster Juvenate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apostoloss View Post
    isnt depending on casts (haste therefore plays a role) ? How many casts they have on ptr with 3043 haste and how much with new sotf haste caps? If i remember correctly they had 6 to 7 casts per tree. If value of that has gonne up plus the increase healing it might not be that bad and perhaps lifesaver in certain situations!!! iceblock + treants healing is one that pops in mind (if healing is good)
    6 casts/250k per minute at 3043 or 7 casts/290k per minute at 4000+. Due to lag there probably isn't a specific BP you can hit, but at 4000 or so Haste the cast time is reduced enough to achieve a 7th full cast. 8 casts won't be worth the Mastery loss.
    I blog about Resto Druid stuff at WTS Heals.

  17. #17
    SoTF beat Incarnation on several fights and its still quite pathetic and sad that druids still haven't figured this out, either that or I'm completely overestimating the progression of 90% of druids.

    Heroic Will, Heroic Garalon/Wind Lord/Amber Shaper, Heroic Empress, Heroic Protectors (and Heroic Elite) are all fights where SoTF should put out higher throughput than Incarnation (assuming you are taking HoTW with it for 6% more SP, if you're taking NV with SoTF.. oi vey)

    Even losing the 4p from t14 it will still be way better on constant raid damage fights where Hpallys and Disc Priests can't just sit there laughing at everyone with 0 over healing and thinking they are skilled.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalur View Post
    I can only speak for 10s because I don't raid in 25 man, but I guess it's even more true there.

    I guess everyone agrees that with the WG glyph, when WG hits 6 targets, it's more HPS and more HPM than without. (If you doubt that, we can get back to it, but let's just assume this as a fact for now. I remember this was proven with math about one expansion ago.)

    The only remaining question is, does it (mostly) hit 6 targets in 10 mans? With the (not so) new large range, and with a bit clever targeting, it should. Let's look at a log:
    Will of the Emperor heroic (easy to evaluate because I'm doing AoE rotation for the whole fight): 43 SotF gains -> 43 WG casts, Log shows 258 applications. 258/43 = 6. That's 100%.

    So the question is, can you target your WG so that 6 people will be hit? Then the glyph is a definite gain. If not, you should work on your targeting, not remove the glyph.
    I was amased you managed to sync WG and SotF that well.. turns out your logs are very different from my own experience. - Why is your tranq healing that low? You should have been able to fit in 1-2 more.

    (Cant post links yet.. TT - if you care enough, look for 'Sleepykitty' and one of the top ranks on the fight)

    Besides the healing numbers being skewed alot.. I think that might be a more practical run.. atleast I have trouble having perfect uptime on SotF and WG. Still love it tho.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamy View Post
    SoTF beat Incarnation on several fights and its still quite pathetic and sad that druids still haven't figured this out, either that or I'm completely overestimating the progression of 90% of druids.

    Heroic Will, Heroic Garalon/Wind Lord/Amber Shaper, Heroic Empress, Heroic Protectors (and Heroic Elite) are all fights where SoTF should put out higher throughput than Incarnation (assuming you are taking HoTW with it for 6% more SP, if you're taking NV with SoTF.. oi vey)

    Even losing the 4p from t14 it will still be way better on constant raid damage fights where Hpallys and Disc Priests can't just sit there laughing at everyone with 0 over healing and thinking they are skilled.
    SotF is quite strong in T14. But without T14 4P, I think SotF will be quite a lot weaker even with the 50%-->75% buff of patch 5.2 with WG glyph.
    We might want to remove WG glyph so that we can use WG on CD againg. Anyone did the math?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Dackzor View Post
    I was amased you managed to sync WG and SotF that well.. turns out your logs are very different from my own experience. - Why is your tranq healing that low? You should have been able to fit in 1-2 more.
    It all comes down to healing assignments. In our raid, the Paladin heals both tanks, while I heal everyone else. Except for the burn phases, I don't have the tanks in range, so hardly any healing on them at all. For the rest of the group, I found that SM (on ranged camp) + WG (SotF) is enough to heal the damage caused by Titan Gas, so I use them rotationally. I keep LB on our Retri "tank" and heal add damage with Rj and direct heals. With WG being so strong, I find that I don't need to use Rejuv too much.

    I think it's difficult to compare my log with your ranked one. Your group is obviously way stronger, and your kill was 5 minutes shorter than ours. In such a short fight, I would probably throw out a lot more Rejuvs, too (your overheal is also about twice as much as mine). But when going for longevity, WG definitely is the way to go. However, in the log I linked, Rj is lower than usual because I had forgotten to reforge and was missing the haste breakpoint. Usually, WG and Rj are on par for that boss, see this log.
    You're right about Tranq, I didn't use it a lot because the fight isn't very stable yet and I like to save it for when something goes shit. On farm, I would use it more often for mana conservation.

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