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  1. #61
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Yeah your talking out your ass trying to make rogues seem much less overpowered then they were. Probably because you played one or played with one and want to believe 4.3 RLS was somehow more skilled then 5.1 KFC, it aint. The numbers posted here are for Glad, glad in S11 was not 2200, it was far closer to 2600. 20% of S11 glads were rogues, about 20% of S11 glads will be warriors.
    I think there's a significant difference here though. Lock/rsham was amazing with almost anything that season/expansion. Rogues may have been the best complimentary class to peel for that comp, and then they got access to stupidly broken pve gear that gave them way too much damage, but you could still replace that rogue with something like a mage or feral and still get results. Also you couldn't just stick a rogue with any healer/dps and instantly create a fairly viable team, but you can currently do that just fine with a warrior.

    I don't think s11 rogues are even really comparable to s12 warriors in terms of straightforward overpoweredness; they just have nearly identical viability when you consider their best comp. Which of those really matters in the end is up for debate though I suppose.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Yeah your talking out your ass trying to make rogues seem much less overpowered then they were. Probably because you played one or played with one and want to believe 4.3 RLS was somehow more skilled then 5.1 KFC, it aint. The numbers posted here are for Glad, glad in S11 was not 2200, it was far closer to 2600. 20% of S11 glads were rogues, about 20% of S11 glads will be warriors.
    Rogues were overpowered but pve items had a lot to do with it but its not compareable to s12 warriors.

    I covered that here
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Just think about this for a sec s11 rogues got no nerfs in s11 and had the rep they did. Warriors have eaten tons of hotfix nerfs and a patch nerfs still reped like s11 rogues were really just think about what that says about the level of overpoweredness of warriors for just a min here.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Yeah your talking out your ass trying to make rogues seem much less overpowered then they were. Probably because you played one or played with one and want to believe 4.3 RLS was somehow more skilled then 5.1 KFC, it aint. The numbers posted here are for Glad, glad in S11 was not 2200, it was far closer to 2600. 20% of S11 glads were rogues, about 20% of S11 glads will be warriors.
    Point being? The argument is stupid and moot, because neither are okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    Rogues were overpowered but pve items had a lot to do with it but its not compareable to s12 warriors.

    I covered that here

    And yeah... part of the OP part about 4.3 rogues was the legendary. Warriors do not currently have a legendary and still wreck face.

  4. #64
    Plenty of rogues were vying for rank 1/gladiator without legendaries. Plenty of rogues were vying for gladiator in comps outside of rls. Rogues were blatantly broken overpowered throughout s11 and didn't see a single nerf. Warrior rep would be far lower than s11 rogue rep if 5.1 were there to have been a new season with the patch.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Plenty of rogues were vying for rank 1/gladiator without legendaries. Plenty of rogues were vying for gladiator in comps outside of rls. Rogues were blatantly broken overpowered throughout s11 and didn't see a single nerf. Warrior rep would be far lower than s11 rogue rep if 5.1 were there to have been a new season with the patch.
    RLS
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    Were mainly what were played.

    There are VERY few if any glad warriors outside of KFC and Warrior/Spriest/Shaman
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  6. #66
    The Lightbringer Razorice's Avatar
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    Not surprised. Warriors are OP as hell.

  7. #67
    Old God apepi's Avatar
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    I am interested to see the difference from the glads and hoth warrior rep.
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  8. #68
    Sometimes when we finally get hard data like this I wish I could package it, time travel to start of patch when Warriors (and a few of the other OP culprits) were vehemently saying stuff like "We were underpowered/trash throughout cata. This season we are balanced and thus we're playing at a far higher skillcap than anyone else".

    On-Topic: I found 3 things interesting

    1) Warlock gladiators - I find it interesting that after the "FOTM OP" (I use this somewhat sarcastically) specs like BM,Arms, FMage,Spriest, they are in the same league as DPS Druids (~6% rep), which are also known to be generally strong. Could they be stronger than their forums seem to imply? I wonder how accurate the people complaining on the forums are. Not meant to troll or anything, just a genuine curiosity.

    2)Rogues may be underrepresented overall, but those who play them are very skilled. I suppose a good thing, though might imply class inaccessibility to all but a few skilled players. In other words, the class is capable but is unpopular or inaccessible.* I know the data does not reflect general rogue rep in arenas, but from previous knowledge I know they're pretty underrepped in general

    3) Although the low rep of monks (0.2%?) is disheartening and shows they are in dire need of buffs or something, what is FAR more disheartening is that Retribution Paladins (DPS Paladins) and DPS Shaman are equaling them in Gladiator. Given the pure numbers of those 2 classes there are overall, it's clear all 3 classes need a severe round of buffs.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by asharia View Post
    Swap warrior and rogue bars and it's basically next season

    Last season too

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    3) Although the low rep of monks (0.2%?) is disheartening and shows they are in dire need of buffs or something, what is FAR more disheartening is that Retribution Paladins (DPS Paladins) and DPS Shaman are equaling them in Gladiator. Given the pure numbers of those 2 classes there are overall, it's clear all 3 classes need a severe round of buffs.
    It is pretty likely all paladins and shaman respec healer, since healer Paladin and healer shaman are completely overpowered (point out in the graph too).
    Last edited by Exorte; 2013-03-01 at 07:24 AM.

  11. #71
    The "overall" charts do not work. For example, anyone could look solely at them and think "druids aren't doing too bad". Then you look at the dps chart, and you're forced to think "well they must all be resto". Look at the healer chart, druids aren't doing so great there either. You still need to differentiate between dps and healers for an overall chart to work. Because even though dps druids and heal druids are all druids, it's not like you can play more than 1 spec at once.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Exorte View Post
    It is pretty likely all paladins and shaman all respec healer, since healer Paladin and shaman are completely overpowered (point out in the graph too).
    Yes. it is probably a mix of (a) resto and hpal being OP and (b) the DPS specs being complete jokes. Given the pure numbers playing the shaman and pally classes, I'd say ideally there SHOULD be a high amount of gladiator DPS and Healer specs for the two classes. If only Healers are repped, then the DPS spec is undertuned significantly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-01 at 06:41 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dingobongo View Post
    The "overall" charts do not work. For example, anyone could look solely at them and think "druids aren't doing too bad". Then you look at the dps chart, and you're forced to think "well they must all be resto". Look at the healer chart, druids aren't doing so great there either. You still need to differentiate between dps and healers for an overall chart to work. Because even though dps druids and heal druids are all druids, it's not like you can play more than 1 spec at once.
    I'm looking at DPS charts. If you eliminate the OP outliers (Warriors and BM hunters), Druids are just lagging behind Mage and SPriests, both of which are very popular and top tier classes for PVP.

    Obviously it's less than those 2, but consider that at least it's not a difference like Gladiator Frost Mage to Gladiator Ret/WW/Ele/Enh.

    Also factor in my completely unqualified opnion that ferals and boomkin are a lot harder to play and less accessible to most players :P

    And I think no one has ever said "mm, Ferals could use a buff in arenas". Boomkins are gods of RBG. So... it's not like you don't have a niche, in the greater perspective.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Exorte View Post
    It is pretty likely all paladins and shaman respec healer, since healer Paladin and healer shaman are completely overpowered (point out in the graph too).
    Well, many people, including me, do not change specs or classes based on weather and seasons, so yes, dps specs needs a lot of help, either buff trough sustained damage ( and nerf burst ) or buff defensive capabilities

    Playing enhance since s1 and currently, we are not shaman but we are Ascendance. Between the CD my dmg in arena is piece of shit, they waaaaaaay overtuned that skill and nerfed the sustained damage to the ground, which is funny, because in PvE melee shaman is fine, probably because there we can have an almost 100% uptime on the target

    Personally, i would love to see Ascendances removed, even tho i really enjoy that spell, and i think it is really fun to be the god of destruction every 3 min, but it is very easilly countered ( disarm, even with chain is still 4 sec minus ), if stormstrike parried / dodged / blocked ( which is weird, if we consider, you just parried / dodged / blocked a SPELL ) the damage drasticly drops
    Last edited by Darksoldierr; 2013-03-01 at 07:31 AM.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    Sometimes when we finally get hard data like this I wish I could package it, time travel to start of patch when Warriors (and a few of the other OP culprits) were vehemently saying stuff like "We were underpowered/trash throughout cata. This season we are balanced and thus we're playing at a far higher skillcap than anyone else".

    On-Topic: I found 3 things interesting

    1) Warlock gladiators - I find it interesting that after the "FOTM OP" (I use this somewhat sarcastically) specs like BM,Arms, FMage,Spriest, they are in the same league as DPS Druids (~6% rep), which are also known to be generally strong. Could they be stronger than their forums seem to imply? I wonder how accurate the people complaining on the forums are. Not meant to troll or anything, just a genuine curiosity.

    2)Rogues may be underrepresented overall, but those who play them are very skilled. I suppose a good thing, though might imply class inaccessibility to all but a few skilled players. In other words, the class is capable but is unpopular or inaccessible.* I know the data does not reflect general rogue rep in arenas, but from previous knowledge I know they're pretty underrepped in general

    3) Although the low rep of monks (0.2%?) is disheartening and shows they are in dire need of buffs or something, what is FAR more disheartening is that Retribution Paladins (DPS Paladins) and DPS Shaman are equaling them in Gladiator. Given the pure numbers of those 2 classes there are overall, it's clear all 3 classes need a severe round of buffs.
    Or it could be that shamans and paladins have other specs that are good in pvp so a lot of them decided to go holy/resto. My friend loves ret a lot but he told me "holy pallies are just too op to not play." I mean you're really comparing 1 spec of a class to an entire class (monk). Monks in pvp suck. Paladins and shamans are great in pvp. Its just the one spec you wish to play isn't doing well (which I do think needs to be addressed). However to imply that ret is worse off than monk is misleading by saying that the pool of players has any bearing on how many become gladiators.

    Many people play certain classes for a variety of reasons. I love my paladin for his spells and his overall "feel" though when I play ret I'm not nearly as much of a "game changer" as when I play holy. However I have gear for both and my paladin has it way better in that regard then my monk. Though unlike my friend i'm sub 2400 on my pally so maybe my views aren't as unbiased.

  15. #75
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    Warrior rep would be far lower than s11 rogue rep if 5.1 were there to have been a new season with the patch.
    Keep telling yourself that...

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    1) Warlock gladiators - I find it interesting that after the "FOTM OP" (I use this somewhat sarcastically) specs like BM,Arms, FMage,Spriest, they are in the same league as DPS Druids (~6% rep), which are also known to be generally strong. Could they be stronger than their forums seem to imply? I wonder how accurate the people complaining on the forums are. Not meant to troll or anything, just a genuine curiosity.
    1) Warlocks had a period where they could global whole teams as demo. This didn't last very long, but many sat on their ratings.

    2) Due to the way gearing works now, ferals would have needed to be feral from the start of the season to be competitive. There are few good feral druids who stuck with it for the entire season.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Tya View Post
    1) Warlocks had a period where they could global whole teams as demo. This didn't last very long, but many sat on their ratings.

    2) Due to the way gearing works now, ferals would have needed to be feral from the start of the season to be competitive. There are few good feral druids who stuck with it for the entire season.
    If you read the blog, it does says only active teams counted in, those who sit on their raiting since months aren't
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  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by lokatii View Post
    Or it could be that shamans and paladins have other specs that are good in pvp so a lot of them decided to go holy/resto. My friend loves ret a lot but he told me "holy pallies are just too op to not play." I mean you're really comparing 1 spec of a class to an entire class (monk). Monks in pvp suck. Paladins and shamans are great in pvp. Its just the one spec you wish to play isn't doing well (which I do think needs to be addressed). However to imply that ret is worse off than monk is misleading by saying that the pool of players has any bearing on how many become gladiators.

    Many people play certain classes for a variety of reasons. I love my paladin for his spells and his overall "feel" though when I play ret I'm not nearly as much of a "game changer" as when I play holy. However I have gear for both and my paladin has it way better in that regard then my monk. Though unlike my friend i'm sub 2400 on my pally so maybe my views aren't as unbiased.
    You could have players on the flipside like me (and I think Darksoldier) stick with DPS specs and have no inclination to play the healer spec. I main tank as Prot Pally in my other spec, so I can't go Holy even if I wanted an offspec.

    I'm comparing DPS monks to DPS Shaman and DPS Paladins. When I referred to "all" paladins and shaman I meant that assuming 2 million of each class and that both the healer and DPS spec are viable, there should be enough talented players to be at Glad level for both. The fact that DPS shaman and paladin's are on par with monks, who are as a whole low in population (not just in PVP, I mean universally) is a mix of factors that include (a) those specs are very poor (b) the heal specs are very OP.

    Put it another way. If the pally/shaman class is like China with 2 billion people and can "spec" into becoming lawyers and doctors, there is a large enough talent pool for there to be 50% lawyer 50% doctor (with some allowance either way of course). But if everyone in China is a lawyer, and nobody wants to be a doctor, it means being a lawyer is way better, and being a doctor is horrible.

    In the case of Monks, your class population is like Singapore with a population of 4 million only. The talent pool is so small you can't draw *too* many objective statements about where these two occupations lie. I.e. Its true monk Gladiators are underrepped. But Monks are, in comparison to most classes, almost invisible. It's *ALMOST* reasonable to expect their Gladiators to be rare.

    I'd frankly be worried if a new class popped up with only 500K players playing it and most of them became gladiators. Then that class could possibly be OP. Cough s5 cough.

    Agree that all 3 need a lot of help.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Booniehat View Post
    You could have players on the flipside like me (and I think Darksoldier) stick with DPS specs and have no inclination to play the healer spec. I main tank as Prot Pally in my other spec, so I can't go Holy even if I wanted an offspec.

    I'm comparing DPS monks to DPS Shaman and DPS Paladins. When I referred to "all" paladins and shaman I meant that assuming 2 million of each class and that both the healer and DPS spec are viable, there should be enough talented players to be at Glad level for both. The fact that DPS shaman and paladin's are on par with monks, who are as a whole low in population (not just in PVP, I mean universally) is a mix of factors that include (a) those specs are very poor (b) the heal specs are very OP.

    Put it another way. If the pally/shaman class is like China with 2 billion people and can "spec" into becoming lawyers and doctors, there is a large enough talent pool for there to be 50% lawyer 50% doctor (with some allowance either way of course). But if everyone in China is a lawyer, and nobody wants to be a doctor, it means being a lawyer is way better, and being a doctor is horrible.

    In the case of Monks, your class population is like Singapore with a population of 4 million only. The talent pool is so small you can't draw *too* many objective statements about where these two occupations lie. I.e. Its true monk Gladiators are underrepped. But Monks are, in comparison to most classes, almost invisible. It's *ALMOST* reasonable to expect their Gladiators to be rare.

    I'd frankly be worried if a new class popped up with only 500K players playing it and most of them became gladiators. Then that class could possibly be OP. Cough s5 cough.

    Agree that all 3 need a lot of help.
    Just as long as you ultimately realize that monks need more help than shaman or pallies.

  20. #80
    Bloodsail Admiral nerdjames's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darksoldierr View Post
    If you read the blog, it does says only active teams counted in, those who sit on their raiting since months aren't
    An "active" arena team doesn't mean that they're literally active. It's a Blizzard term to describe eligibility for end-of-season rewards. Active just means that a team has played at least 20 games in the season, and has at least one person on it within 100 pr of the team's rating that's played at least 20% of the team's games.

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