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  1. #141
    I also don't understand what the big deal is with these large numbers - isn't it going to be weird looking at a death log and seeing X hit Y for 30 damage -> Y died?

    I just don't see the benefit of such a system, how can people complain about something so arbitrary?

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Sammriy View Post
    I think it has to do with the combat log being an absolute mess, bosses health being into the crazy number range "He has 10 million billion health!" (exaggerating) and the numbers flashing across your screen with 1000000, 2880000, 3000000! When that starts to be your white hits and so frequent, it just gets to be a bit much.
    I don't get this... Don't look at them if it's such a bother?

    When I'm in raid combat (or any combat really), I don't see the numbers at all. When I'm done with the fight I look at my recount and see what went on, but as for fighting I'm totally in tune with what's going on, not staring at the numbers...

    Maybe this is what's going on in these heroics where the people are pulling 12k dps, they're not actually playing they're just watching numbers...

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    The problem with the gear started at WoTLK and Cataclysm finished it off.

    What Blizzard did right in TBC was that during questing the gear wasnt really an upgrade for the end-game raider, yes there werent many of us but thats not the point.

    The item levels didnt instantly start + 10 above the previous LAST TIER.

    They started barely better than the FIRST TIER, after 5-7 levels they hit the same as T3 with all the equip bonuses etc, and at level 68-70 you simply had to replace your gear, some set bonuses were still OP so people used them in Karazhan, but raw stats even the simply blue gear was better at 70.

    But thats the point, T3 items became obsolete because of the equip/set bonuses at level 69 and some bonuses useful until you got your 2 set bonus from Karazhan, they didnt become obsolete 3 hours into the expansion.

    Thats where Blizzard failed with item levels, especially in cataclysm/mop.

    Since i used Scroll of Resurrection back at August to get a free level 80 because i knew i would play at some point, and i did this last week i saw the item scaling horribly.

    SoR free level starts with 232 item level, first quest reward in Cataclysm is 272 when the last tier of Wrath was 277..

    Questing in TBC didnt reach the last tier of gear 8-10 levels in, not in the first 2 quests of the expansion (Of course because of gems and proper equip stats like crit and haste the 277 is better, but you get the scaling point i hope!).

    Its okay to feel stronger, but the scaling should start a bit lower than it did, 20 levels above the previous T3, not 60 and 70 like Cata/MoP.
    I aggree
    The itemsquish would also make for a more fluid leveling experience.
    I levelled some chars up doing cata and it was like. 1-58 fine fluid experience your gear gets a bit better everytime. 58 of to hellfire massive increase in stats BAM. Then 58-68 levelling in tbc was very fast compared to back in the day but the minute i hit 68 of to northrend gotta get the overpowered itemupgrades. And as you might have guessed the same thing happened the minute you hit 80 in northrend.
    It just feels kinda annoying that effectively all your gear becomes instant obsolete at 58,68, 80 and now 85. And that every content you do those last few levels up to those breakpoints with its item upgrades feel utterly pointless.
    Like hurray I got a shiny new sword at level 57 in LBRS, but in 4 bars im level 58 so that blue sword is actually crap.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    Actually the technical computer stuff is the reason the squish is inevitable someday.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ifeanychukwu View Post
    The game client still has to deal with all the original numbers. I think that's part of the reason Blizzard would want to do an item squish.
    Could you explain me why it's a problem?

  5. #145
    For the progammatically curious:

    Your CPU can only operate on registers. Registers are 32bit, 64bit or various types of floating point and can hold a value. Each CPU instruction can do things with registers, like adding them together. Each of these operations typically takes exactly one cycle to execute (RISK design), but some operations (like floating point division) may take significantlymore.

    Adding up two values that fit into a register require but one instruction. Adding up two values that cannot fit into a register takes more than one instruction, as the CPU has to do "big math" operations on it. This means calculating parts of the addition in turn, effectively calculating the first 32 bits separately, then the next 32 bits and so on. We're still talking only a few instructions, but it is more than one. For modern architectures, this is not a problem unless you exceed 64 bits integers. And if you do, you really should use a floating point variable anyway.

    More important than the instruction counter is data size. Transferring all that data into your CPU from memory, and transferring all that data over the network eats bandwidth. There is a notable difference in bandwidth cost once you start using 64bit datatypes instead of 32bit datatypes. I would assume wow uses 32bit floats instead of 32bit integers to avoid the extra bandwidth. The question is then what the overhead of doing those calculations in float insttead of integer math would be. Assuming the wow programmers do their job, it shouldn't be a concern.

    Apart from the int32 limit of 4.2 billion, which can easily be avoided by using float ops instead, I do not see a major technical reason for the stat squish.

    --

    There is however a major readability reason. When your trinket start having +836 int on it, anyone can immediately see what is going on. But when your trinket start having +86273561937291 int on it, you have to ask yourself: was that 12 or 13 zeroes? And does it even matter what those last 10 digits are?

    Similarly, if your +836 int trinket was buffed to +837 int tomorrow, would that even make you care?

    Right now, damage numbers suffer from this. Do I really care if my Greater Heal crits for 112023 damage, or is it enough for me to know it heals for 112k? Next expansion item stats will suffer the same problem. Item squish will come is my prediction.
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  6. #146
    I don't understand why they didn't just implement a linear stat progression model from the start. The argument that "my character wouldn't feel more powerful" is null and void, because you would infact, be more powerful. Just not exponentially so.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylwaria View Post
    Well... you could potentially use bitfields
    Not if you are a good programmer and you are not looking at a binary variable.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    More important than the instruction counter is data size. Transferring all that data into your CPU from memory, and transferring all that data over the network eats bandwidth. There is a notable difference in bandwidth cost once you start using 64bit datatypes instead of 32bit datatypes. I would assume wow uses 32bit floats instead of 32bit integers to avoid the extra bandwidth. The question is then what the overhead of doing those calculations in float insttead of integer math would be. Assuming the wow programmers do their job, it shouldn't be a concern.
    If performance was a big issue they'd have written this game in Assembly (ya ya I know this language is awful if you wanna use it in different processors).

    This game doesn't even use a lot of bandwidth, I'll sniff some packets (yes I know it's against ToS) when I get at home and see how much it uses.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Libertarian View Post
    Do you understand the differences between signed and unsigned integers, 32bit / 64bit, and floating point numbers?
    Yes I do. I have been working in IT branche for 20 years now... you can go ahead and throw anything to me.
    Just explain where the limits are for calculations for computers now and after two years... and where the highest numbers in wow are now and what we expect them to be in two years.

    I think after that the whole squish will become clear, if it is needed or just wanted.

  10. #150
    Pit Lord Drarion's Avatar
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    Omg My combat log is filled with high numbers and it makes me sad, i want see only 100 hits not 100k ((((((((((((((((

  11. #151
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    Seeing numbers like 213,456 on every hit is a little obscene.

  12. #152
    Pit Lord Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    Its something about logging on for the first time in a little while and seeing that you can only do 2k dps when you were able to do 170k the last time you logged on...
    Synek - best rogue in the world
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I don't think I know what the acronym "tsg" is. It's not RBG's or Arena, random battlegrounds, or any form of dungeon or raid that I can think of. What does it mean?

  13. #153
    Pandaren Monk
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    Yes I do. I have been working in IT branche for 20 years now... you can go ahead and throw anything to me.
    Just explain where the limits are for calculations for computers now and after two years... and where the highest numbers in wow are now and what we expect them to be in two years.

    I think after that the whole squish will become clear, if it is needed or just wanted.
    Then you would know it has nothing todo what todays or computer in 2 years can do...
    Blizzard has a minimum computer spec requirements (7 year old cpu...) or recommended requirements (5 year old cpu)

    Those are the deciding factors, not what a modern or future computer can handle. :P

  14. #154
    Nothings worse with bigger numbers, its just easier to read & combat log looks cleaner.

    If they don't do it next expansion I'll be suprised, we're going to see tanks break 1 million health...dps is going to be through the roof at the start of the next expansion let alone the end of it.

    They need to do it or just...idk man. UI's are going to need reading glasses to see clearly when they're that small

  15. #155
    The Lightbringer LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    I aggree
    The itemsquish would also make for a more fluid leveling experience.
    I levelled some chars up doing cata and it was like. 1-58 fine fluid experience your gear gets a bit better everytime. 58 of to hellfire massive increase in stats BAM. Then 58-68 levelling in tbc was very fast compared to back in the day but the minute i hit 68 of to northrend gotta get the overpowered itemupgrades. And as you might have guessed the same thing happened the minute you hit 80 in northrend.
    It just feels kinda annoying that effectively all your gear becomes instant obsolete at 58,68, 80 and now 85. And that every content you do those last few levels up to those breakpoints with its item upgrades feel utterly pointless.
    Like hurray I got a shiny new sword at level 57 in LBRS, but in 4 bars im level 58 so that blue sword is actually crap.
    On the other side, I completely love levels 58/68/80 etc. Why? Because that means a slew of upgrades are coming and good character performance boost. I love going into the Outland or Northrend and seeing my character rise in power dramatically, it is fun and is what I look forward to in the leveling experience.

    Should there be an item squish? I do not believe so. I think one is coming, however. Big numbers actually do not slow computers down any more believe it or not. I would just feel really weak going from 300k crits (which I love) to a 6k crit (which would be ridiculously disheartening). Your character is powerful, numbers are the best way to convey that in this game, keep it.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    On the other side, I completely love levels 58/68/80 etc. Why? Because that means a slew of upgrades are coming and good character performance boost. I love going into the Outland or Northrend and seeing my character rise in power dramatically, it is fun and is what I look forward to in the leveling experience.

    Should there be an item squish? I do not believe so. I think one is coming, however. Big numbers actually do not slow computers down any more believe it or not. I would just feel really weak going from 300k crits (which I love) to a 6k crit (which would be ridiculously disheartening). Your character is powerful, numbers are the best way to convey that in this game, keep it.
    I agree. I'd not like to fight Sargeras and see it in my combat log:

    Sargeras' Ultimate Explosion bla bla hits you for 3000.

    Now if it was:

    Sargeras' Ultimate Explosion bla bla hits you for 868070987097.

    I'd be like "OMG it hurts that guy is really strong".

    But it's just me :P

  17. #157
    Scarab Lord Azutael's Avatar
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    It's been out of hand for a long time now, I for one would welcome a squish.

  18. #158
    High Overlord Zaphiron's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if anyone said this but if they change the item lvls. Everything else will be retuned sas wrllell, like boss health, ability dmg etc. It's quite massive change to be made just like that. For the rest things will probably remain the same just with lower numbers ( when everything is fine tuned). Not something to add in just a random patch but rather a new expention.
    Last edited by Zaphiron; 2013-02-27 at 01:43 PM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by santa666 View Post
    Then you would know it has nothing todo what todays or computer in 2 years can do...
    Blizzard has a minimum computer spec requirements (7 year old cpu...) or recommended requirements (5 year old cpu)

    Those are the deciding factors, not what a modern or future computer can handle. :P
    Do you mean to say that the next xpac will have numbers which will be too high for a computer 7 years old??????


    This is not only meant for santa666 but for all:
    Come on guys why are you being that vague...... give me the numbers and facts for your arguments.
    Some say that the numbers will pose a technical difficulty for computers, so give the facts then (even for 7 years old computers).

  20. #160
    The Lightbringer Tehterokkar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angarin View Post
    Nothings worse with bigger numbers, its just easier to read & combat log looks cleaner.

    If they don't do it next expansion I'll be suprised, we're going to see tanks break 1 million health...dps is going to be through the roof at the start of the next expansion let alone the end of it.

    They need to do it or just...idk man. UI's are going to need reading glasses to see clearly when they're that small
    We'll see last tier of the expansion... in ICC, Druid tanks were at like 70k health, so that's like 52k outside of ICC. DPS was around 16-17k before ICC buff. Come Cata, DPS went to about 30k in T11 heroic gear and tank health around 140k at most IIRC.

    Now at the end of Cata, Tanks had almost 200k health I believe. DPS were reaching 50k on Ultraxion "easily", about 55k was top DPS. Now come MoP, DPS in Full HC gear is about 120k at most, tanks having 500-550k health

    At the end of MoP, we probably will have 650-750k health on tanks and DPS doing 180-200k.

    At the beginning of next expansion, if they go with previous increases, we'll likely see about 1.75m health on tanks(about 2.5 times increase per expansion in health), seems highly unlikely, expect 1m though. DPS would be 300-350k probably.

    And they said there would be another expansion after this... Hurray for 1m DPS and 4m health on tanks!

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