Thread: Gearing Prot

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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I'm not sure why you quoted me on this, since that was essentially the point I was making?
    I was quoting you to say "this" and expand on your point.

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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    I was quoting you to say "this" and expand on your point.
    Ah. Well I will expand your expansion then, as clearly I support my own good ideas.

    I didn't see a "this" so I thought either I was unclear or you misunderstood. Apologies for confusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Ah. Well I will expand your expansion then, as clearly I support my own good ideas.

    I didn't see a "this" so I thought either I was unclear or you misunderstood. Apologies for confusion.
    We're not really supposed to say "this", but shhhh.

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    We're not really supposed to say "this", but shhhh.
    I saw everything.

  5. #45
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    So did I. Stay on topic and such.

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  6. #46
    Back OT; given Theck's recent Matlab'ing, anyone considering moving back into Mastery > Haste? Given that tank damage is [a bit] more meaningful in 25M over 10M, and tank DPS is [a bit] more meaningful in 10M than 25M, I foresee that anyone who opts to change would likely be a 25M MT, but just wanted to poll the crowd.

    Writeup is located here, btw.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  7. #47
    I am not sure if a read somewhere in his post that he takes in consideration the t15 2 set bonus in his calculations. I will personally be stacking haste and then mastery. Isn't our 2 set t15 favoring fast holy power acquisition?

    Also, tank damage in either 10 or 25 is a significant amount of raid damage. Yes its true that it has less impact on those 25 mans, but if you can dish some extra dps w/t gimping your survivability why not help with that enrage timer?

    Edit: Two - set bonus : Casting Word of Glory or Eternal Flame also grants you 40% additional block chance for 5 seconds per holy power.
    Last edited by Meanor; 2013-03-01 at 08:24 PM.

  8. #48
    This is sort of a dumb question, but could someone explain exactly how Sacred Shield works?

    I've been refreshing it fairly often throughout my rotation but I'm not sure if I should be waiting for it to wear off before refreshing.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Meanor View Post
    I am not sure if a read somewhere in his post that he takes in consideration the t15 2 set bonus in his calculations. I will personally be stacking haste and then mastery. Isn't our 2 set t15 favoring fast holy power acquisition?

    Also, tank damage in either 10 or 25 is a significant amount of raid damage. Yes its true that it has less impact on those 25 mans, but if you can dish some extra dps w/t gimping your survivability why not help with that enrage timer?
    Not sure how 2 set favors faster HoPo/min over any other gear combination? Are you saying you're going to try and game it by WOGing every 15sec? If you did that, you'd actually be better off stacking mastery/avoidance to push for a TDR build, but that's another topic altogether.

    This tier, even in 25man, tank damage in normals and heroics is pretty paltry. I've not seen much that changes that in 5.2 (unless you try to do something like cheese Iron Qon by 1tanking or something). The fact that the damage is so minimal (when done correctly) is a large part of what allows haste to flourish, since raw mitigation isnt as important. Now, if heroics have some ramped up tank damage, we may see a paradigm shift, but in terms of mitigation MA > HA, while dps is reversed.

    At any rate, the change/question posed is specifically regarding haste versus mastery with a higher item budget (aka more rating to play with). There comes a point where the synergistic feedback of haste -> mastery reaches an inflection that favors stacking mastery to better bolster your ShotRs versus mindless spam of ShotR. Nobody is debating that haste has more DPS potential, but I'm curious if we will see a "cap" this tier or next.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Back OT; given Theck's recent Matlab'ing, anyone considering moving back into Mastery > Haste? Given that tank damage is [a bit] more meaningful in 25M over 10M, and tank DPS is [a bit] more meaningful in 10M than 25M, I foresee that anyone who opts to change would likely be a 25M MT, but just wanted to poll the crowd.

    Writeup is located here, btw.
    Mastery has always been better than haste for tanking. We are not stacking haste to be tankier, its for the dps.
    Haste provides enough tankiness to survive so the dps is just a bonus.

    Mastery stacking do however have a lot higher skill cap than haste stacking.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-01 at 09:31 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Mastery has always been better than haste for tanking. We are not stacking haste to be tankier, its for the dps.
    Haste provides enough tankiness to survive so the dps is just a bonus.

    Mastery stacking do however have a lot higher skill cap than haste stacking.
    I think Theck actually made the opposite argument in his article, saying that a haste build actually requires more skill in order to get the damage reductions at the right time to balance out the mitigation that is lacking as opposed to a mastery build.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Relur View Post
    I think Theck actually made the opposite argument in his article, saying that a haste build actually requires more skill in order to get the damage reductions at the right time to balance out the mitigation that is lacking as opposed to a mastery build.
    Theck looks at linear damage taken intake. It becomes entirely different from looking at an actual boss fight. In an actual boss fight mastery build requires a lot more skill as it is much more dependant on hitting the SotR when actually needed.

    To me it is not even an argument. It is very obvious that a mastery build requires more well timed than a haste build.

    Mastery build got lower SotR% uptime and higher damage reduction on the SotR making it more valuable to actually hit those % where needed.



    Also, that said, if you are just blindly using your SotR, a haste build have higher % of chance to randomly cover dangerous events due to having higher uptime %.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    This is sort of a dumb question, but could someone explain exactly how Sacred Shield works?

    I've been refreshing it fairly often throughout my rotation but I'm not sure if I should be waiting for it to wear off before refreshing.
    Sacred Shield applies a buff to your character for 30s. While that buff is maintained, an absorb effect (the "bubble") is generated every 5s. If the damage absorption isn't used by the time the next refresh comes up, a new absorb effect overwrites the old one - they don't stack. Somewhat confusingly, both the 30s buff and the temporary bubble are named "Sacred Shield," but you can figure out which one is which because the absorb effect expires much more quickly than the buff.

    Because of the initial 5s delay in getting that first absorb effect, you should be refreshing the 30s buff before it expires. This ensures continuity of the effect without invoking a new delay period.

    In addition, I personally use WeakAuras to track the amount of vengeance I have incoming. In addition to using this as a gauge to determine if I need to use a defensive cooldown, I try to renew my Sacred Shield 30s buff whenever I take a large spike of incoming damage, since the Vengeance thus generated increases my Spell Power and thus the strength of the SS absorb effect. Whenever I have a particularly large-valued SS Buff on me, I try not to renew it until either it is about to expire or my Vengeance level increases again, since this maximizes the size of the absorb bubbles I'm getting and I don't want to overwrite a SS Buff creating large bubbles with a SS Buff creating a smaller bubble.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Also, that said, if you are just blindly using your SotR, a haste build have higher % of chance to randomly cover dangerous events due to having higher uptime %.
    Shouldn't be higher spikes with a haste build but lower damage taken over all? Also, shouldn't be more self healing with more haste thus negating some of the disadvantages of haste?

  15. #55
    Theck: “But the numbers say that C/Ma is simply stronger based on stochastic metrics”
    Meloree: “Yes, but your numbers are shit, because nobody cares about stochastic metrics.”
    Theck: “You’re mean.”
    I'm with Mel on that one

    Haste and Mastery are about the same. You can cover more of the dangerous bits of the fight with more haste, and going from 46% reduction to 49% reduction isn't likely to "save your life". Whereas going from 0% reduction to 46% likely would.

    Regardless, I'm sticking with liberal amounts of haste for two reasons: 1 - I like the faster rotation and 2 - beyond providing ~equal damage reduction, haste provides a non-insignificant amount of dps. More damage = more raid healing and the boss dies faster.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Meanor View Post
    Shouldn't be higher spikes with a haste build but lower damage taken over all? Also, shouldn't be more self healing with more haste thus negating some of the disadvantages of haste?
    We were not talking about the effectiveness of haste. It was about mastery build having a higher skill cap with less room for failure than a haste build in bleeding edge situations.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-02 at 01:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Haste and Mastery are about the same. You can cover more of the dangerous bits of the fight with more haste, and going from 46% reduction to 49% reduction isn't likely to "save your life". Whereas going from 0% reduction to 46% likely would.
    On most fights you can cover the dangerous bits of the fight with 0 haste as they are often very short and intense. This is why mastery is superior in terms of pures survivability though still imo haste pulls ahead due to the dps increase.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #57
    Tank damage intake is almost never a block on a new fight. raidDPS nearly always is.
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    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Tank damage intake is almost never a block on a new fight. raidDPS nearly always is.
    Tank damage is now a part of raid DPS. That's the way it is, and there are a lot of us who like this change.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Camaris View Post
    Tank damage is now a part of raid DPS. That's the way it is, and there are a lot of us who like this change.
    Yep, I love the fast rotation
    Intel i5 2500K (4.5 GHz) | Asus Z77 Sabertooth | 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP 1600MHz | Gigabyte Windforcex3 HD 7950 | Crucial M4 128GB | Crucial M550 256GB | Asus Xonar DGX | Samson SR 850 | Zalman ZM-Mic1 | Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB | Noctua NH-U12P SE2 | Fractal Design Arc Midi | Corsair HX650

    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

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