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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Because The Orcs totally resorted to invading Ashenvale first right?
    Er... yes? Did you play Warcraft III? The fighting in Ashenvale is all Grom's fault.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  2. #62
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Fine me the Quote then, because Honestly?

    If the Night Elves WERE giving lumber to the Horde, Does that not contradict the whole point of the Warsong Lumber operations in the first place?
    The lumber shipments started up after the ceasefire established after the Lich King's death. The entire reason things began spiralling out of control between the Alliance and Horde, and the leadup to Cairne's death, is because the Twilight's Hammer began butchering and skinning Sentinels guarding lumber shipment caravans to Orgrimmar and pinning it on the Horde. When the Horde leadership (both Thrall and later Garrosh) refused to look into things, the Sentinels stopped the lumber shipments, sparking Garrosh's invasion (and, typical of his victim complex, Garrosh focuses on the fact that the lumber shipments stopped in Wolfheart, not the reason they stopped to begin with and his and Thrall's hand in the cessation).

    Only farms they could cultivate are Pork Farms in Durotar and Barrens.
    It wouldn't really require twisting the blood elves' or taurens' arms to get them to teach the orcs how to irrigate.

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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    It wouldn't really require twisting the blood elves' or taurens' arms to get them to teach the orcs how to irrigate.
    Or have Tauren druids teach the orcs how to grow buildings, just as Night Elves do, from living wood. They can use it to repair ships in naval combat, but not build homes for the Orcs? It's the Night Elves fault for not teaching them I guess? If your allies won't help you, why do you then demand aid from your enemies?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    It was a very serious answer. Did you miss the Thrall bashing threads? You yourself said Thrall returning would be WORSE than Garrosh. You're the one calling me names and then expecting a "serious answer". I gave them already, in the past. I'm not going to waste my breathe arguing nonsense with a pigheaded Horde fanboi. It's easier to just agree with them and watch them get livid when I single in on their rallying cries with lore as it is.
    Let's look at your track record shall we?


    No matter what the Horde does to survive, it will be wrong in your eyes.

    No matter what the Night Elves do, it will be right in your eyes.

    Night Elves should have won Ashenvale because they are stronger than Orcs and Tauren, Faster than Orcs and Trolls, and can easily destroy destroyers and goblin shredders with bows and arrows.

    You claim the Idea that Night Elves should be more back to their routes, then complained about Tyrande being an Impulsive Dumbass... when she was an impulsive dumbass in her origin.

    You claim that Night Elves should be Noble but Primal, and yet you hate the idea of Orcs being Noble but Primal.

    You are totally against the idea that Elune may be a Naaru... because this somehow makes her less special.

    You complain how the Horde gets all the focus, when Alliance had better quests, better hubs and more focus around their races in Vanilla at the least.

    You complain how you have so many characters who are useless and doing nothing, yet Rexxar, a very important character of the Horde, has not done anything since TBC.

    Everything you post on the forum is that EVERYTHING is bad in Warcraft lore because the Horde are getting some screen time and development.

    The Horde has not claimed any more canon kills than the Alliance, in fact, I cannot claim ONE the Horde have claimed over the Alliance.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Or have Tauren druids teach the orcs how to grow buildings, just as Night Elves do, from living wood. They can use it to repair ships in naval combat, but not build homes for the Orcs?
    Pretty sure orcs want wood for tools of war, not home. They want the night elves to give them wood so they can kill the night elves better.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Er... yes? Did you play Warcraft III? The fighting in Ashenvale is all Grom's fault.
    Technically, it would be Jaina and Thralls Fault for telling the Warsong clan to gather Lumber for them.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Or have Tauren druids teach the orcs how to grow buildings, just as Night Elves do, from living wood. They can use it to repair ships in naval combat, but not build homes for the Orcs?
    Maybe it's sacrilege to them? Aren't the wisps who extract wood from the trees their dead ancestors?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Maybe it's sacrilege to them? Aren't the wisps who extract wood from the trees their dead ancestors?
    Yes but no. Wisps are night elves who wish to continue aiding their people after death, so it's not really like they're being pressganged into service (and even the wisps who sacrificed themselves to stop Archimonde did so willingly and out of a sense of duty to their people; something the orcs would find honorable and commendable).

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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Technically, it would be Jaina and Thralls Fault for telling the Warsong clan to gather Lumber for them.
    Thrall told him to get lumber, not start a war with the natives. Or drink Mannoroth's blood and murder a forest demigod who would've been a mite useful in fighting off the Legion later in the game. Seriously... Grom was such an idiot...

    Jaina didn't meet Thrall until the end of the campaign.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    Your idea of Thrall and his teachings is... pretty bad, quite honestly.

    For one thing, like Morm said, the orcs under Thrall had a cultural rebirth, going back to their shamanistic roots (and before you repeat yourself, even warriors and hunters were part of that culture. It's not class based >.>)

    Thrall, a symbol of subservience? Not in the slightest. He freed the orcs from both their physical prisons and their mental chains. He, along with Grom Hellscream (mostly Hellscream), freed the orcs from their blood curse. Saying that Thrall is a symbol of subservience is like saying that Sylvanas is a symbol of love and kindness.
    I speak of a Warrior and Hunter culture not as classes, but as how they functioned, They were not all Shamanistic. Ritual fights were common, and ritual hunters were both a symbol of adult hood AND to offer matehood with a potential mate.

    Thrall as a Symbol of subserviance was probably a poor choice of words yes, I am tired and I basically meant to say that Thrall kept the Horde passive, Something that does not come naturally to Orcs.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Why? I'm tired of going over a broken record with the same thickheaded people who aren't interested in hearing an opposing viewpoint, but just screaming in their echo chamber. Give me an infraction if you want. The bias and ignorance of the story is unreal. Forgive me for taking it and running with it, as they would...
    I can't (not a mod of General Discussion) and wouldn't even if I was. This is mainly just advice... stooping to their level just makes you like them.

    Argue your points directly and calmly, and you can hold your head high and say "At least I tried."

    Either that, or ignore them and move on.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Yes but no. Wisps are night elves who wish to continue aiding their people after death, so it's not really like they're being pressganged into service (and even the wisps who sacrificed themselves to stop Archimonde did so willingly and out of a sense of duty to their people; something the orcs would find honorable and commendable).
    Well, I don't know if the point has ever been answered in lore. I just assumed the Night Elves were still too pissed at the Orcs to even consider it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 06:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Thrall as a Symbol of subserviance was probably a poor choice of words yes, I am tired and I basically meant to say that Thrall kept the Horde passive, Something that does not come naturally to Orcs.
    The Orcs were not always bloodthirsty warriors. That was the result of drinking demon blood. And Thrall's Horde was hardly passive, it just strove for peace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callei View Post
    Yes but no. Wisps are night elves who wish to continue aiding their people after death, so it's not really like they're being pressganged into service (and even the wisps who sacrificed themselves to stop Archimonde did so willingly and out of a sense of duty to their people; something the orcs would find honorable and commendable).
    I remember reading something about Wisps and the Horde somewhere before, I can't recall, but it was very relatable to them.

    Honestly, the first Disappoitment I had with World of Warcraft was when I found out the Night Elves were not on the Horde, they seemed to fit so well with them.

    Before people actually listen to Constellations rabid stupidity, I am not promoting Orcs being some Genocidal bullies who destroy and Pillage the world around them. I am talking about a Horde that doesn't get Pushed and does nothing, I am talking of a Horde who pushes back.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 06:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I can't (not a mod of General Discussion) and wouldn't even if I was. This is mainly just advice... stooping to their level just makes you like them.

    Argue your points directly and calmly, and you can hold your head high and say "At least I tried."

    Either that, or ignore them and move on.
    Taking sides in a discussion when the guy is doing the very thing he's complaining about, very mature for a mod there.

    [This post was infracted for flaming.]
    Last edited by Rivelle; 2013-02-27 at 12:37 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Let's look at your track record shall we?
    This is fun

    No matter what the Horde does to survive, it will be wrong in your eyes.
    All they ever do is wage warfare, then get really upset when it comes back to them.

    No matter what the Night Elves do, it will be right in your eyes.
    When it comes to defending their homes they arent wrong, period. When it comes to how they are full-retard when it comes to flaws, no. Malfurion and the Druids not entering the war against the Horde was very wrong.

    Night Elves should have won Ashenvale because they are stronger than Orcs and Tauren, Faster than Orcs and Trolls, and can easily destroy destroyers and goblin shredders with bows and arrows.
    Orcs should win because they are stronger than Night Elves, Trolls should win cause they are faster than Night Elves, Tauren should win cause they are bigger than Night Elves. These are your arguments, not mine. I've asked for a fair fight portrayal but for the umpteenth time you fail to comprehend this.

    You claim the Idea that Night Elves should be more back to their routes, then complained about Tyrande being an Impulsive Dumbass... when she was an impulsive dumbass in her origin.
    No, she wasn't an impulsive dumbass. She took calculated risks. They bill her as being a wise and noble leader in her thumbnail. She should act like it. Cause that's how she is described.

    You claim that Night Elves should be Noble but Primal, and yet you hate the idea of Orcs being Noble but Primal.
    No, I never said anything about primal. Martial means skilled in warfare.

    You are totally against the idea that Elune may be a Naaru... because this somehow makes her less special.
    It does... not to mention kills all kinds of lore.

    You complain how the Horde gets all the focus, when Alliance had better quests, better hubs and more focus around their races in Vanilla at the least.
    No they didn't. What are you talking about? Or even know, you've never played the Alliance at all. Can tell by your posts...

    You complain how you have so many characters who are useless and doing nothing, yet Rexxar, a very important character of the Horde, has not done anything since TBC.
    Neither has Velen. Rexxar has been cancelled out. Next?

    Everything you post on the forum is that EVERYTHING is bad in Warcraft lore because the Horde are getting some screen time and development.
    No, not at all. They are perfect and invincible, fans like you justify things the writers INTENDED HORDE PLAYERS TO QUESTION. Lore beyond factions is great. Thunder King, Pandaria for example. I love it, great stuff, well done. Makes sense too.

    The Horde has not claimed any more canon kills than the Alliance, in fact, I cannot claim ONE the Horde have claimed over the Alliance.
    Because you can't, means its so. You can't recall a lot of things, your knowledge of the lore is sparse at best, and entirely centered around the Horde. I've played both factions since I started, and come cataclysm I started to steadily dislike what the Horde became and really hate how pathetic the Alliance was in response to it. You play horde, see horde, everything is horde horde horde, echochamber. You don't want a discussion, you want people saying "Ya I agree!". I'm giving you that and you don't like it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 06:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Before people actually listen to Constellations rabid stupidity, I am not promoting Orcs being some Genocidal bullies who destroy and Pillage the world around them. I am talking about a Horde that doesn't get Pushed and does nothing, I am talking of a Horde who pushes back.
    But an Alliance that pushes back has no right to? Horde wasn't pushed by the Alliance... they were pushed by circumstance. And way to go with the personal attack. Im rabdly stupid for disagreeing with you and pointing out your flaws in lore, logic, and your assessment of me through blind echo chamber rage. Welcome to my ignore list. You earned it
    Last edited by Justignoreme; 2013-02-27 at 06:29 AM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Technically, it would be Jaina and Thralls Fault for telling the Warsong clan to gather Lumber for them.
    Next time someone asks me to do a chore I will use that defense, Oh you wanted me to go to the store to get milk so I went there and stole the milk after killing the stocking team. Stupid teenager telling me I have to pay to get my dairy products.... /scoff

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I can't (not a mod of General Discussion) and wouldn't even if I was. This is mainly just advice... stooping to their level just makes you like them.

    Argue your points directly and calmly, and you can hold your head high and say "At least I tried."

    Either that, or ignore them and move on.
    I have argued my points, constantly, sourcing them and so on. I get confronted with the religion of Horde that refuses to "believe" written lore. I think the solution is putting the Fiend on ignore. Nothing worthwhile has ever been posted by him with respect to anything.

  17. #77
    Fluffy Kitten Callei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    I remember reading something about Wisps and the Horde somewhere before, I can't recall, but it was very relatable to them.

    Honestly, the first Disappoitment I had with World of Warcraft was when I found out the Night Elves were not on the Horde, they seemed to fit so well with them.
    I always figured the night elves and the other Hyjal races (dryads, Keepers, and Dark Trolls) would have been a third faction to keep the WC3 dynamic (Alliance, Horde, Sentinels) up until the unveil that a) there would only be two factions, and b) night elves joined the Alliance.

    Before people actually listen to Constellations rabid stupidity, I am not promoting Orcs being some Genocidal bullies who destroy and Pillage the world around them. I am talking about a Horde that doesn't get Pushed and does nothing, I am talking of a Horde who pushes back.
    Hm. Under Baine, Vol'jin, even someone like Nazgrim, you could have a Warchief willing to shove when shoved back, but who isn't so froth-mouthing shithouse crazy that he wouldn't be willing to pursue diplomacy when the situation calls for it.

    Awesome sig by Elyaan is awesome.

  18. #78
    Orcs not being pushed around is great. But what Garrosh is doing is far more than 'not being pushed around.' He's going too far, and is the opposite extreme from Thrall. Taking resources you need to survive, fine. Trying to completely drive another race from their ancestral homes and claim all of it for yourself? Not good.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    I speak of a Warrior and Hunter culture not as classes, but as how they functioned, They were not all Shamanistic. Ritual fights were common, and ritual hunters were both a symbol of adult hood AND to offer matehood with a potential mate.

    Thrall as a Symbol of subserviance was probably a poor choice of words yes, I am tired and I basically meant to say that Thrall kept the Horde passive, Something that does not come naturally to Orcs.
    You don't really get what the whole "shamanistic culture" thing meant.

    Shamanism was the central pillar of the orcs culture, as a way of communing and living with nature and their ancestors. This ancestor worship and harmony with nature was replaced with warlock magics and a battle-lust which still plagues the Horde today in the form of Garrosh and his supporters.

    The warriors and hunters had a role to play in this culture, and their ways were being taught as well, it was all part of what Thrall was doing.

    And passivity doesn't come naturally to orcs, no, but peace was a natural part of their culture, and that was what Thrall was trying to do. The biggest issue was that trouble followed them to Kalimdor, and I can see where you get "passive" from what Thrall was trying to do, but really I would call it restraint. He wanted the orcs to stay true to their proper culture and not fall pray to the battle-lust that permeated the Old Horde. He didn't want another war and considering the hostility of those he was trying to negotiate with, I think his "lack of action" is reasonable. The war would have started far sooner if not for his decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Taking sides in a discussion when the guy is doing the very thing he's complaining about, very mature for a mod there.
    I'm allowed to take sides in a debate thread, as long as I don't directly insult anyone, which I'm fairly certain I haven't. I've talked purely in a hypothetical manner. I don't know you well enough to say if you're one of "those people" I referred to. If you were hurt by my words I apologize.

    Though really I'm not on anyone's "side." I have my own opinions on this matter that I don't think either you or Constellation share. I called her out for a reason, and it certainly wasn't to say "I'm on your side! as opposed to Fiend's!"

    I have to say though that I don't think you know me well enough to call my actions immature, when all I've done in this thread so far is suggest to someone to "Argue your points directly and calmly" and make some points about your summarization of Thrall's work in the New Horde.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post

    Pointless words.
    Yeah, not.

    You argued through an entire that that Orcs were weaker than Night elves, Then Tauren were weaker than night elves, and that Trolls were slower AND than night elves. When confronted about it? You used ONE QUOTE from Grom who said they fought savagely, for elves. Just let this sink in to people, You thought, that Tauren and Orcs.. were WEAKER than Night Elves.

    As for Tyrande, she didn't take caluclated risks, she "Followed Elune's path" this included

    - Killing watchers to free Illidan after her Husband told her not to do so.
    - Getting trapped inside a demon infested forest
    - Refusing to side with the Alliance and Horde in the Wake of the Burning Legion, for Once she listened to Malfurion.
    - Not wishing to give up her immortality to save the world, and took convincing by her Husband to do so.

    She was not smart, she was Angry, reckless and impulsive.

    All you can think of about the Night elves doing something wrong is.... the Druids didn't want to get involved? Clearly you have not read their history.

    Martial, primal. You don't even know what you want with night elves, you want them back to Warcraft 3 standards, then they were barbarian-like, as much as the Orcs.

    Alliance Quests were ten times more fun than Horde Quests, with often better hubs too. Let's not forget the capital cities that were more than tents, huts or a circle hub.

    You whine again about the Horde faction lore, this is because the Horde is undergoing needed development, beforehand, the Alliance was much bigger and much more powerful. A thread years ago mentioned this. The Horde before cataclysm had nothing in the way of equaling Gnome or Orcish tech beyond goblin mercenaries, or the Numbers of Humans.


    As for Velen, let's put the simple, at least you have seen all your faction leaders in game.

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