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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Thrall was alot more willing to take action before World of Warcraft, perhaps it was Vanilla's storytelling that made it alot more narrow, but Wrath of the Lich King didn't Address these things either, as they still happen in Cataclysm.

    Hell, only Garrosh is the one who handled Northwatch, even if it was a stupid and wrong action.
    And what did the Alliance do to the Horde in Wrath exactly that would warrent the Warchief going to war with the Alliance despite their common enemy?
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  2. #102
    A Horde fanboy arguing with Alliance fanboy.

    Horde fanboy -> everything about the Horde is right.
    Alliance fanboy -> everything about the Alliance is right.

    Pointless thread remains pointless.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Tell me then, why isn't Garrosh in Southern Barrens personally taking care of the Alliance incursion? Lore characters can't be everywhere at once, and Thrall's seeming passivity wasn't a Thrall specific thing, it was a flaw in Blizzard's overall storytelling in vanilla/bc. Faction leaders did NEXT TO NOTHING not just Thrall.
    I don't mean Personally, I mean as a Warchief. He should have sent some Grunts to help take down Northwatch hold. He should have Sent some Grunts to slap Dwarf ground looters. What I am talking about here is not that these points were addressed in Vanilla, obviously they were quests. But that they were not addressed in Cataclysm, in fact, thats the only time they ARE addressed.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    However, if you knew. The Frostwolves DID try diplomacy first, telling them to leave, the Dwarves just said "Fuck you" and started mining anyway.

    While I have no doubt the Warsong were stupid meatheads, an Envoy to Thrall telling him to back the fuck off would have worked just as well as Squatting around the Warsong camp in stealth and then melting their lumber.

    Huh, I've always read that they were attacked without warning.

    "The Stormpike Expedition have set up residence in the valley to search for natural resources and ancient titan relics. It is likely that they did not know of the Frostwolf orcs' connection to the area when choosing to visit the valley. Despite their intentions, the dwarven presence has sparked heated conflict with the Frostwolf orcs to the south, who have vowed to drive the interlopers from their lands. The Stormpike dwarves sent in an initial expedition, the Stormpike Guard, to search for ancient relics of their past and mine for natural resources and were attacked (they felt) without provocation by the territorial Frostwolves.[1]" from wowpedia.
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by corebit View Post
    A Horde fanboy arguing with Alliance fanboy.

    Horde fanboy -> everything about the Horde is right.
    Alliance fanboy -> everything about the Alliance is right.

    Pointless thread remains pointless.
    Worst part is, I am not a Fanboy, I play a Dwarf and only have 2 Horde characters to my many Alliance characters. I just think saying the Horde are evil nazi's because they... attack places, is stupid. They have very Logical reasons, but Garrosh is stretching them way to far and yes, HE is going full stupid Genocide, but the Horde did have good reasons to be offensive, at least in some areas.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Thrall was alot more willing to take action before World of Warcraft
    Because there were actual direct threats, not just potential threats.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Hell, only Garrosh is the one who handled Northwatch, even if it was a stupid and wrong action.
    Northwatch wasn't a direct threat to the Horde. It was a potential threat and really for the most part a way for the Alliance to say "Yeah. We have a presence here. Don't forget it." and a security measure against the Horde (since they distrusted them, you know).

    They were an annoyance that Thrall tried to get rid of. Because it's a military base, if Thrall had went to destroy it, it would have sparked a war, which he didn't want, because he knew that war was bad for the Horde. And believe it or not, it is. The only reason Northwatch became a threat to the Horde was because Garrosh became overly aggressive and his actions made the Alliance wary enough to heavily reinforce it.

    Thrall's not an idiot. That's why he didn't take it down by force.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-02-27 at 07:01 AM.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    I don't mean Personally, I mean as a Warchief. He should have sent some Grunts to help take down Northwatch hold. He should have Sent some Grunts to slap Dwarf ground looters. What I am talking about here is not that these points were addressed in Vanilla, obviously they were quests. But that they were not addressed in Cataclysm, in fact, thats the only time they ARE addressed.
    Maybe word of it never reached Thralls ears before it was taken care of by adventurers.
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  8. #108
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    How Is this thread even still here?

    Yes, the Orcs were pretty bad off in the desert at the onset of the Cataclysm, but really only the orcs. Their culture was, however, non-existent until their freeing from the internment camps back in WCIII, and you cannot argue against that due to them being bonafide slaves.

    Also, how can you claim that the horde is "family" when you are propping up a man that would have the Darkspears under marshal law, their leader killed and the blood elves as cannon fodder? There is no family in this horde, there is the Orcs and then there is everyone below them. Garrosh's only concern are the Orcs at the end of the day. He is not the leader of the horde, he is the leader of the orcs and is using everyone else as puppets.
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Worst part is, I am not a Fanboy, I play a Dwarf and only have 2 Horde characters to my many Alliance characters. I just think saying the Horde are evil nazi's because they... attack places, is stupid. They have very Logical reasons, but Garrosh is stretching them way to far and yes, HE is going full stupid Genocide, but the Horde did have good reasons to be offensive, at least in some areas.
    To be clear, I don't think the Horde is all bad. I don't think the orcs are all bad. I'm just arguing that they're not completely justified in all of their aggressions either.

    This war may have started in part because the orcs needed food and lumber from Ashenvale. but that doesn't explain Garrosh trying to take Stormwind, or ordering the Forsaken to invade Gilneas. Garrosh not only didn't try diplomacy himself, he despises diplomacy as seen in The Shattering and the comics, where he didn't approve of Varian trying to open trade for lumber from Elwynn so they wouldn't need ashenvale. Garrosh's attitude is 'take what we need/want.' It's the opposite extreme of doing nothing and letting the alliance walk over you. What the horde needs is something in the middle, not Garrosh 2.0
    Last edited by Malzra; 2013-02-27 at 06:58 AM.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    To be clear, I don't think the Horde is all bad. I don't think the orcs are all bad. I'm just arguing that they're not completely justified in all of their aggressions either.
    Horde isn't bad, Garrosh is bad. Garrosh is destroying the Horde. Garrosh is inciting genocide. Garrosh has many impressionable orcs willing to do his bidding. Garrosh being touted as the best Horde leader as he dismantles the Horde, making Horde family by bringing his racism to his own allies, and suddenly Thrall is being trashed as a terrible Warchief for having the Wisdom to understand diplomacy. I don't get how it goes full circle to this:

    "and yes, HE (Garrosh) is going full stupid genocide" from the OP himself...

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Horde isn't bad, Garrosh is bad. Garrosh is destroying the Horde. Garrosh is inciting genocide. Garrosh has many impressionable orcs willing to do his bidding. Garrosh being touted as the best Horde leader as he dismantles the Horde, making Horde family by bringing his racism to his own allies, and suddenly Thrall is being trashed as a terrible Warchief for having the Wisdom to understand diplomacy. I don't get how it goes full circle to this:

    "and yes, HE (Garrosh) is going full stupid genocide" from the OP himself...
    Yeah. I would say Garrosh IS far worse than Thrall as a warchief, even if we assume that Thrall not doing anything in vanilla was a character flaw rather than just how the game was designed back then, because at least Thrall kept the horde together. Garrosh is splitting it apart at the seams because he only cares about the orcs and uses the others as tools and fodder.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    To be clear, I don't think the Horde is all bad. I don't think the orcs are all bad. I'm just arguing that they're not completely justified in all of their aggressions either.

    This war may have started in part because the orcs needed food and lumber from Ashenvale. but that doesn't explain Garrosh trying to take Stormwind, or ordering the Forsaken to invade Gilneas. Garrosh not only didn't try diplomacy himself, he despises diplomacy as seen in The Shattering and the comics, where he didn't approve of Varian trying to open trade for lumber from Elwynn so they wouldn't need ashenvale. Garrosh's attitude is 'take what we need/want.' It's the opposite extreme of doing nothing and letting the alliance walk over you. What the horde needs is something in the middle, not Garrosh 2.0
    Yes, Horde needs something in the Middle, not Garrosh, at all, as he is a terrible example of What an new Orc Warchief should be.

    The way I see it, the Orcish Warchief should be Diplomatic, but firm. He will give his demands, and we will take the oppositions in return, he will listen to all sides and judge accordingly, Harsh if need be. If this means that the Alliance gets the a fortress dismantled? So be it. If this means capture Humans are sent back to the Alliance as honor dictates, then it will be done. Honor is a major role in almost all Cultures of the Horde, it should be the main characteristic of the Warchief.

  13. #113
    Also an interesting tidbit, this was probably retconned but in Cycle of Hatred the barrens was actually supposed to be a no mans land and not horde territory.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    Horde isn't bad, Garrosh is bad. Garrosh is destroying the Horde. Garrosh is inciting genocide. Garrosh has many impressionable orcs willing to do his bidding. Garrosh being touted as the best Horde leader as he dismantles the Horde, making Horde family by bringing his racism to his own allies, and suddenly Thrall is being trashed as a terrible Warchief for having the Wisdom to understand diplomacy. I don't get how it goes full circle to this:

    "and yes, HE (Garrosh) is going full stupid genocide" from the OP himself...
    Garrosh had SOME Good Ideals, and for a moment in Cataclysm seemed to be the kind of Warchief people wanted. Blizzard however fucked him over. Part of me wants him to get purged of this stupid angry emotions during SoO and actually becoming a decent character or the potential for one again.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Yes, Horde needs something in the Middle, not Garrosh, at all, as he is a terrible example of What an new Orc Warchief should be.

    The way I see it, the Orcish Warchief should be Diplomatic, but firm. He will give his demands, and we will take the oppositions in return, he will listen to all sides and judge accordingly, Harsh if need be. If this means that the Alliance gets the a fortress dismantled? So be it. If this means capture Humans are sent back to the Alliance as honor dictates, then it will be done. Honor is a major role in almost all Cultures of the Horde, it should be the main characteristic of the Warchief.
    We can agree on that then. Sadly the need of resources by the orcs doesn't seem to be brought up in game, only in the short stories and novels, so it's not a clear thing in game for people. They could have justified the ashenvale invasion more in game if that was played up more, but it's harder to justify when an ancient on the Alliance side of the quest tells you they're letting the wood rot. The story just gets confused sometimes.

    The sad thing is, I thought that's what Garrosh would shape up to be until they announced he was going to be a raid boss. I thought he would shape up, as show by examples like Stonetalon, and become a brutal but honorable Warchief. Instead, he's going off the deep end.
    "If you have to believe it on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.” Aron Ra

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Also an interesting tidbit, this was probably retconned but in Cycle of Hatred the barrens was actually supposed to be a no mans land and not horde territory.
    I always assume it was a rather loose border, with the North being a majority of Horde while the south being less populated. Then again, this is reflected in Cataclysm and it shows that really, in Vanilla, the Horde was little more than a refuge for the savage races, than a total world superpower, at last at the start.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-27 at 07:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    We can agree on that then. Sadly the need of resources by the orcs doesn't seem to be brought up in game, only in the short stories and novels, so it's not a clear thing in game for people. They could have justified the ashenvale invasion more in game if that was played up more, but it's harder to justify when an ancient on the Alliance side of the quest tells you they're letting the wood rot. The story just gets confused sometimes.

    The sad thing is, I thought that's what Garrosh would shape up to be until they announced he was going to be a raid boss. I thought he would shape up, as show by examples like Stonetalon, and become a brutal but honorable Warchief. Instead, he's going off the deep end.
    I honestly have no idea what is to do with the resources in Ashenvale. Sources left right and center say the lumber was going to rot... yet there was a shortage... so they drew up plans with the humans but that fail... so they had plans with the sentinals... but they failed... if they needed all these trade agreements, then the "surplus" of lumber surely was not large at all.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Yes, Horde needs something in the Middle, not Garrosh, at all, as he is a terrible example of What an new Orc Warchief should be.

    The way I see it, the Orcish Warchief should be Diplomatic, but firm. He will give his demands, and we will take the oppositions in return, he will listen to all sides and judge accordingly, Harsh if need be. If this means that the Alliance gets the a fortress dismantled? So be it. If this means capture Humans are sent back to the Alliance as honor dictates, then it will be done. Honor is a major role in almost all Cultures of the Horde, it should be the main characteristic of the Warchief.
    And the problem with that is that doesn't work. The Warchief can't just do as he pleases if he's trying to negotiate. I can see why you look down on Thrall... you expect something that isn't realistic. WoW is complex (relatively speaking). Things have consequences. Going back to Northwatch, again, if Thrall went to tear it down, that war that started in Cataclysm? It'd have started far sooner. That wouldn't have been a good thing.

    Thrall had honor, he attempted diplomacy, and he dealt with things harshly.
    Last edited by The Mister Madgod; 2013-02-27 at 07:14 AM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    And the problem with that is that doesn't work. The Warchief can't just do as he pleases if he's trying to negotiate. I can see why you look down on Thrall... you expect something that isn't realistic. WoW is complex (relatively speaking). Things have consequences. Going back to Northwatch, again, if Thrall went to tear it down, that war that started in Cataclysm? It'd have started far sooner. That wouldn't have been a good thing.

    Thrall had honor, he attempted diplomacy, and he dealt with things harshly.
    Between his time as Warchief, I don't remember him doing anything Harsh.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Between his time as Warchief, I don't remember him doing anything Harsh.
    Killed Burx for betraying the Horde, killed Daelin Proudmoore for fighting the Horde. Destroyed the Burning Blade in Durotar.

    Again, it's hard to really see it inside of the game (due to the lack of storytelling power of classic. Thrall did more than a good portion of faction leaders during those times), but it's there.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    I agree, destroy the Alliance because people who defend their homes and want their stuff to be left alone and aren't willing to give it up without any compensation are horrible people. I think the story would be better that way.
    You do realize that the Horde wanted nothing to do with the Alliance, which is why they even came to Kalimdor to begin with. Guess who followed them?
    At this point it has become a petty revenge match, but that's partially due to the fact that no matter were the Horde tries to go, they are followed and attacked. And also Garrosh is an ass.

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