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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Garrosh had done many things as Warchief of the Horde.

    He has polluted rivers, destroyed cities and lead conquests of areas once peaceful.

    He has also brought wealth, safety and a new lease on life for those who follow his Ideals.


    Clearly, he is not working though, he opresses opinions that are not his own, he is wasteful, brutish and hateful.

    But is an Aggresive Horde, an Active Horde, a Bad thing?

    Sitting in the desert did the Orcs nothing, it watched them slowly die away and their proud culture stagnate.

    Another Thrall would be worse than Garrosh, a symbol of subservience for the Horde not to look up to, but to feel looked down Upon.

    The Horde is a united faction of Outcasts, united by a purpose to be strong together and protected together. The Horde is Family, and Family should look out for it's own first.
    what?
    Durotar still invaded by alliance force, seering blade thugs and quillboars
    Azshara was occupied and half destroyed by the goblin, also night elfs are at orgrimmar backdor
    Ashenvale still contested the lumber camp still half in fire, splintertree still under siege and an entire fleet was sunken at zoram
    Stonetalon has been nearly destroyed
    N Barrens farmers are under attack of quillboars like never before

    what wealth, safety and new life Garrosh has granted to the orcs? it is draenor 2.0, thrall need to come back asap when there is still hope to save the horde.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Yes because this is real life? Garrosh is killing millions of jews now? I hate when people use real life as an example of something in a game. Has he got camps full of night elves that he plans to kill?

    yes he does. its called ashenvale.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fiend View Post
    Garrosh had done many things as Warchief of the Horde.

    He has polluted rivers, destroyed cities and lead conquests of areas once peaceful.

    He has also brought wealth, safety and a new lease on life for those who follow his Ideals.


    Clearly, he is not working though, he opresses opinions that are not his own, he is wasteful, brutish and hateful.

    But is an Aggresive Horde, an Active Horde, a Bad thing?

    Sitting in the desert did the Orcs nothing, it watched them slowly die away and their proud culture stagnate.

    Another Thrall would be worse than Garrosh, a symbol of subservience for the Horde not to look up to, but to feel looked down Upon.

    The Horde is a united faction of Outcasts, united by a purpose to be strong together and protected together. The Horde is Family, and Family should look out for it's own first.
    SPOILER ALERT.

    to bad then that garrosh only cares about the orcs and destroys the family thrall built up. He ignores and disrespects shamanism and brings warlocks into the fold yet again. He imprisons the darkspear trolls tries to assasinate voljin while using its strongest heroes in hes war. He lets the goblin destroy there water supply to build war machines and then steals the taurens water supply and give them no aid back. he let the whole sunreaver population die/get imprisoned by the alliance to get one item he intended to use for conquest. He controls the goblins and peons with fear. He disrespects the forsaken and there blight yet he uses a bomb himself to take out theramore. He is quick to judge other for there failures yet he allowed hes fleet to be destroyed in the highlands and then he allowed a young alliance prince with one alliance hero at hes side disrupt and destroy hes weapon of conquest. If thrall got hes way there could have been peace btw alliance and horde by now with trade or skirmishes to settle economy.

  4. #124
    Sigh another thread like this.

    Oh well... I'll say it again. Just move the damn headquarters of the horde to a more hospitable enviroment. Like Feralas or Decolace. Lots of trees and wildlife where they are far away from everyone and can live their lives in peace. The small group of elves probably won't go to war over this if this would actually bring peace in the end.

  5. #125
    Considering the first exchange the Night Elves and Orcs had was Grom Hellscream's resource grab in Ashenvale (no trade there) and taking advantage of a renewed blood curse (!) in order to kill Cenarius (!!) after he started forcing them out of his forest (!!!), it's not unreasonable to see night elves hesitating to making any deals with Grom Hellscream's son when he's doing almost the exact same thing. (Don't forget that Cenarius returned after the Cataclysm and really only interacted with druids through the Dream in the meantime, so that issue had not been resolved yet.)

    At least Thrall's leadership represented a notable change in orc behaviour toward a stable, more reasonable alliance of like-minded nations. While it's true that his administration happened during a time of relative stability (pre-Cataclysm, when resources were not scarce and Deathwing was not freaking everyone out), a continuation of his policies after the Cataclysm would have made the difference between small skirmishes against outposts and a shooting war. Alliance incursion into southern Barrens and the razing of Taurajo may have been completely averted with diplomatic negotiation instead of escalating into a nuclear strike against Theramore. Actual sanctions could have been imposed against Sylvanas' use of the plague in Hillsbrad instead of looking the other way (since it did destroy a port hub in a strategic position.) Pandaria may never have been discovered or, if it did, it could have been done in a way that did not rouse the Sha and cause major problems for all of the races that lived there.

    And this does not even cover what Garrosh has been doing with Horde members, including the founding nations. With the exception of goblins and orcs, all the major factions have a problem with him through his actions during the Cataclysm and the Pandaria campaign. Problems which he refuses to rectify aside from saying "Deal with it, buttercup. We don't tolerate weakness or any divergence from Horde dogma." That might be great if orcs could stand on their own and everyone else leeched off of or were enslaved by them, not unlike the Horde of Draenor, but we know this Horde would not exist if it didn't make alliances of convenience. He overestimates his strength, underestimates his allies (adventurers excluded), and is locked into a course of action that will not end until either the Alliance or Horde is destroyed (and possibly leaving the world vulnerable to attack from the Burning Legion.) This man is a general, not a warchief, and that was Thrall's worst mistake.

    It's no wonder the last chapter in this expansion is Garrosh being deposed, likely with an arrow of Vol'jin's through his heart (like he promised.) Maybe Saurfang can come out of mourning/retirement and take the reins of leadership for a while because, let's be honest, he should have been Thrall's first choice (Quick reminder: Brother of Broxigar. Supreme Commander of the Might of Kalimdor. High Overlord of the Horde. Veteran of the First, Second and Third Wars.) In fact, if Saurfang ever shows up during the Garrosh encounter, I intend on playing the "You answer to Saurfang now!" sound file from the gunship battle. Seems fitting considering the conversation those two had in Northrend.

    So, to the five Garrosh fanboys that are still out there, you're backing the wrong pony.

  6. #126
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    You kind of have to appreciate that diplomacy and cordiality would have done the orcs a LOT more good than throwing lives and resources away in these endless conquests. All the time.

    Really, they helped save the world at Hyjal. They should have cited that as a reason to be "good neighbours" and worthy trade partners with the night elves rather than go right back to plundering.

    Alas, logic is poison to a game hell-bent on endlessly replaying WC2 and 3's plotlines.
    Last edited by Zaelsino; 2013-02-27 at 12:40 PM.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by TreezusSaves View Post
    Considering the first exchange the Night Elves and Orcs had was Grom Hellscream's resource grab in Ashenvale (no trade there)
    Many people seem to forget who actually sent Grom to Ashenvale, which was Thrall because he required lumber for a giant Base which Thrall intented to build.

    Quote Originally Posted by TreezusSaves View Post
    and taking advantage of a renewed blood curse (!) in order to kill Cenarius (!!) after he started forcing them out of his forest (!!!), it's not unreasonable to see night elves hesitating to making any deals with Grom Hellscream's son when he's doing almost the exact same thing.
    The Orcs knew a shit about this Forest and those who lived in there.

    Warsong Orc: Chieftain, there's something strange about these woods. It's too...quiet. Almost like we're being watched.

    Grom Hellscream: Are you all afraid of spirits now? There is nothing here but ancient trees and shadow.

    Voices coming from the trees in language they aren't use to hearing.

    Warsong Orc: You hear that? This place is haunted! I fear no living enemy, but my axe cannot cleave fleshless spirits.

    Grom Hellscream: Still your tongue and get to work! The warchief's new settlement will require a great deal of lumber. This section of forest must be cleared!

    Huntress: You were right, sisters. These green-skinned brutes have no respect for life! Slay them in Elune's name!

    http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Spirits_of_Ashenvale


    Grom and the Warsong followed there the Warchief's command and the Night elves attacked them without any warning, so you can't blame the orcs if they fight back.

    And the Cenarius thing, Thrall ordered them to built a base, do you think they just give up and go back into the barrens?
    They had the choice betwen:
    retreating, giving up their base and failing the Warchief
    Die and let the Warsong go down with it, on top of losing the Base for the Horde obviously
    Drinking demon blood and fight back

    Obviously Demon Blood isn't a good option but it's not like that Grom drank because he was stumbling by accident into this corrupted fountain, without the Demon Blood Grom and the entire Warsong Clan would be dead.

    From a certain viewpoint you can blame Thrall for it, he sent the Warsong into Ashenvale gathering loads of wood without even knowing if anyone lives there.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    wait nvm, it was a night elf quest giver and she's a lying Alliance bitch.
    i think you hit the nail right on the head there!
    the killing, skinning and disecting of the sentinels was obviously a False Flag attack carried out by the alliance themselves, meant to cause this current thread and argument

  9. #129
    Oh come on....

    The elves were seeing humanoids (orcs) hacking away at their sacred grove. "Our sacred grove is being desecrated!" (famous WCIII quote)

    What would the Orcs have done if Elves or humans (or Draenei....) visited the pools of their elders? Tell them that they have been very naughty and should not do it again? No they would attack on sight.

    After this, the Orcs should have sent an envoy to the Elves pleading their case. And if the Elves sent back his head, sent another etc. but they didn't. They rather take from those meddling Elves... "Who suddenly and without provocation attacked those defenseless orcs!" Shame on them!

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    What would the Orcs have done if Elves or humans (or Draenei....) visited the pools of their elders? Tell them that they have been very naughty and should not do it again? No they would attack on sight.
    Yeah, but i thought most Humans, Elves and Draenei think they are more civillized than Orcs, reacting just like them doesn't seem that superior to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    After this, the Orcs should have sent an envoy to the Elves pleading their case. And if the Elves sent back his head, sent another etc. but they didn't. They rather take from those meddling Elves... "Who suddenly and without provocation attacked those defenseless orcs!" Shame on them!
    Moral highground belongs to those that break the cycle, Night elves just jumped on the first thought that came to their mind and attacked.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Yeah, but i thought most Humans, Elves and Draenei think they are more civillized than Orcs, reacting just like them doesn't seem that superior to me.



    Moral highground belongs to those that break the cycle, Night elves just jumped on the first thought that came to their mind and attacked.
    Moral highground or not, it shows poor wisdom - from either side perhaps. But hey the Orcs wére an invading army. They even didn't take the time to sent out scouts to check for other civilisations or people. No.. they saw trees and thought... we might be guests here on this world... but let's just strip it for resources.

    Sure there is more to it then all the stuff we can all type about who is wrong. The bottomline is: Alien invaders wanting to purge all life from Azeroth + after making amends by saving Azeroth (WCIII) together with the other races - they once again turned towards their brute ways under Garrosh. It doesn't matter that he is just a leader. The other races just got their through war-formed-prejudice confirmed.

    And sure they have been influenced by how they were treated aswell by humans and elves alike.... sure I won't deny that. But thats also logical, anyone would have an enormous amount of prejudice vs an invading alien army. And when they are sort of accepted, once again "take what they can by force" instead of negotiations.

    GG Orcs... GG. Wish Thrall was back.

    And sure it was because Blizzard wanted to put the War back in Warcraft. Sure... But this is a stupid way.

    Even more stupid is that "the world is stripped of resources" or something as stated in the Cataclysm... I haven't seen MORE trees and fauna then ever before. So... thats even a dumb reason to have a go at eachother. It comes down to Garrosh... and he respresents the Orcs. When Thrall was there atleast I respected Orcs as an honorable race with a few dimwits here and there, just like humans and elves have aswell. But now Garrosh just confirms the long hatred towards Orcs was justified.
    Last edited by Vaelorian; 2013-02-27 at 03:01 PM.

  12. #132
    Garrosh is brillant tactian but terrible politican. He is good at winning battles.

    Saurfang is good strategist. He is good at winning wars.

    Thrall isn't so good warrior as them, but he is a good politican. He is good at rulling countries.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Zehiir View Post
    Garrosh is brillant tactian but terrible politican. He is good at winning battles.

    Saurfang is good strategist. He is good at winning wars.

    Thrall isn't so good warrior as them, but he is a good politican. He is good at rulling countries.
    not even close, opening 10 fronts and an entire continent invasion when your turf still contested and under attack by multiple foe is far away from being a good tactitian
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    not even close, opening 10 fronts and an entire continent invasion when your turf still contested and under attack by multiple foe is far away from being a good tactitian
    Garrosh lead a very successfull campaign in Northrend. Nah, before you say it, not Saurfang, Garrosh. It was Garrosh who was the commander, and it was Garrosh who was praised for his abilities in command and great tactical mind. Northern campaign was a huge success because of him.

    In Cata he didn't open that many fronts. The main dish was Ashenvale and Stonetalon. And, as we all know, both of those campaigns were pretty successfull, despite Stonetalon being leaded by a madman, and Ashenvale by a demon. Well, happens every day.

    Gotta say things changed in MoP. Now none of his decisions make any sense. Assassination of a very important ally? Complete disregard of another one? Turning numerous soldiers into mindless chaotic abominations to slaughter just because EVIL? Master tactican, indeed. He needs a caretaker.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Constellation View Post
    yaya, just like the Third Reich was a beacon of pride amongst Germans reeling from the humiliation and poverty of losing WWI.
    It would've been, had they won the war. But alas, history is written by the victor and thus now the Third Reich is seen as shameful.
    But know this, they could've won. They were very close, but some minor mistakes cost them the war. Let's not say that the Third Reich was doomed to fail before it even started, because that's simply not true.

    Same thing with the Horde, if they would win the war then the entire Horde would agree that the ends justified the means. Because no more Alliance means no more war. It's the ultimate solution for peace, though it's quite extreme. But we know this is never going to happen so of course the Horde will go down looking like idiots. But when you put things in perspective, it's a genuine goal for the Horde. This game isn't about politics but about war, so why frown upon it?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by bufferunderrun View Post
    not even close, opening 10 fronts and an entire continent invasion when your turf still contested and under attack by multiple foe is far away from being a good tactitian
    Garrosh is good at micro but terrible at macro.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Huh, I've always read that they were attacked without warning.

    "The Stormpike Expedition have set up residence in the valley to search for natural resources and ancient titan relics. It is likely that they did not know of the Frostwolf orcs' connection to the area when choosing to visit the valley. Despite their intentions, the dwarven presence has sparked heated conflict with the Frostwolf orcs to the south, who have vowed to drive the interlopers from their lands. The Stormpike dwarves sent in an initial expedition, the Stormpike Guard, to search for ancient relics of their past and mine for natural resources and were attacked (they felt) without provocation by the territorial Frostwolves.[1]" from wowpedia.
    Actually i'm pretty sure that i've read on horde side that they blame the dwarves for attacking first while the dwarves say the orcs did. In the end it probably doesn't matter since both sides are/were unwilling to give in. The dwarves want to enforce their sovereign imperialistic imperative while the orcs don't want alliance on their lands (although, same as with garrosh, i don't get their hatred for the alliance since the frostwolves never fought in the wars).

  18. #138
    A warlike horde is a bad thing because there are threats out there that eclipse both of the factions and without the Alliance, the Horde will be slaughtered. People somehow got the idea that Warcraft is all about war between orcs and humans but it hasn't been since WC3. It is not. It is about how orcs and humans have to put aside their old hatreds in order to defeat a powerful enemy that would otherwise destroy them.

  19. #139
    I am Murloc! Sky High's Avatar
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    gotta love these lore related threads. giant pissing contests:
    "your side sucks!"
    "no your side sucks!"
    "your side sucks cuz of A,B,C"
    "your side is a bunch of assholes for X, Y,Z"
    "no my side sucks.....wait"

    its a fucking game people. don't need to treat this shit like is like any real important things going on out here. anyway.
    both sides have to work things out between them, the fact that Garrosh threatens to tear the horde alone apart while uniting its enemies against it wont do any of them justice. the sooner Garrosh is out the better, but they need a leader who will stand for what the horde wants but is willing to negotiate with the alliance. but in all honesty this would lead to peace and world of peacecraft seems rather boring to me.
    Last edited by Sky High; 2013-02-28 at 03:24 AM.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Er... yes? Did you play Warcraft III? The fighting in Ashenvale is all Grom's fault.
    Go replay WCIII before you try to say things like that.

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