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  1. #61
    There are lots and lots of gates in the game. This is another gate being applied to the people who are most likely to push every gate as far as they can.

  2. #62
    Why is it that people keep saying/suggesting that this means that only smart/skillful guilds are going to get the first kills now? Guilds like Paragon and Method and Blood Legion aren't world first simply because they grind the attempts for hours. Gated attempts aren't going to change who gets world first kills. Guilds who raid more will still reach Ra-den first, and still get more progression time on him then those who raid less, and therefore will kill it first (more or less).

    This might shake up lower end rankings (world 100-1000), but nothing else. And once the strat is publicized, gating the attempts will be pointless again.

  3. #63
    Honestly, the difference between world first guilds and top 100 guilds is simply time spent raiding. Blizzard knows this and doesn't want a boss fight you can just put 300 attempts into in one week in order to kill it. So for the guilds that raid less, the boss is definitely a positive for them.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Snore View Post
    I'm sitting here thinking about try limit boss fights. Why are they in the game? It seems like such a stupid concept to me. I heard the HC boss in the new raid is going to have a try limit. Anyone care to enlighten me on some pros?
    Are you in a world first progression guild that has a chance in hell of ever seeing Ra'den? I don't think so because if you were you wouldn't need to ask that question. And if you're not then you don't need to care about it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 04:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Krayzz View Post
    No, that's a raid fight that will require strategy and skill. Which most bosses don't require now a days.
    LOL, so what's your heroic mode progression exactly? I'm guessing 0/16.

    Don't talk about things you don't know the first thing about. Modern heroic mode bosses during progression are at least as hard as they were in older content. Probably more. Just ask a world first guild. They sure as hell require strategy and skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    Excessive is a relative term. For a WoW raid fight, 25 minutes is probably boardering on Excessive (I am pretty sure there have been a few WoW raid fights that have lasted pretty close to that. Heroic Lich King comes to mind).

    However, compared to, say: an EIGHTEEN HOUR BOSS FIGHT in Final Fantasy XI, or some of the fights in Everquest, most WoW boss fights are quick and dirty affairs.
    I never played FFXI but isn't that essentially because those bosses had no enrage timers and people just GY zerged them?

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-28 at 04:55 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by laggspike View Post
    well i dont mind if people try a boss 500 times, its not my problem, BUT that that can be my problem, its when a fight is 25 min +
    bloddy damn anoying to wipe ay 12% and then have to start over.. that is just a joke imo..
    No fight in WoW is that long. Not that I can recall anyway. Longest I remember is like 10mins or so.

    But that's the enrage timer, once you gear up they don't take that long.

    The thing I really hate is when the boss is easy for most of the fight and only gets hard at the last 10% or so. So you wipe and have to re-do the boring bit over and over. I remember Sindragosa used to be like that, lol.
    Last edited by Mormolyce; 2013-02-28 at 04:55 AM.
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  5. #65
    Most guilds will not even get to it before it becomes an irrelavant boss so it does seem kind of pointless to limit tries.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    I never played FFXI but isn't that essentially because those bosses had no enrage timers and people just GY zerged them?
    Far as I understand (from posts like this one, by the Link Shell (guild) that put in the above mentioned 18 hour attemt it was due to the crazy length / difficulty of the fight, and not simply because it had no enrage and could be Graveyard Zerged.

    Graveyard Zerging is what happens on bosses like Sha of Anger, where you just keep running back whittling the boss down. Yes, these guys had deaths, but not an insane number of them (nothing like you would expect fom 18 hours of simple graveyard zerging, especially in a game where deaths cost you exp and can potentially DELEVEL your character!). Simple fact of the matter was, the fight was just INSANELY long.

    The fight is 1 main Boss + 8 adds. Every time you kill the main Boss, it morphs into a different Main Boss, with a new set of adds. Appearently there are a total of 10 different "Main Boss" morphs it can go through, with the added fun that after each "morph" form is killed, it returns to it's base type, meaning you have to kill the thing roughly 21 times to finally make it completely dead.

    According to that blog entry, they were doing pretty signifigant damage, and had between 24 to 30 people participating over the duration of the attempt. They also had a bit of napkin theorycrafting that i will take their word on (never played FF XI myself) that seemed to indicate that they were takeing roughly 30 - 40 minutes to go through one Form untill they hit some of the harder ones, and that there was not a lot of room in that timeframe to cut the speed of kill number down by any meaningful amount.

    From what I can tell from the wikipidea entries on it, it is basicly a "Boss Gauntlet". The WoW equivilent would be being dropped into a room where you fight a "morph dragon", which every time it is killed, respawns as a random Dragon Raid boss from any point in WoW history, scaled to current difficulty level.
    Fight would be something like: Morph Dragon -> Onyxia -> Morph Dragon -> Syndragosa -> Morph Dragon -> Malygos -> Morph Dragon -> Sapphiron -> Morph Dragon -> Neffarian, repeat 6 more times untill it finally dies, with no breaks in between.

    All that being said, the fight was essentially a very long, fairly difficult Marathon Boss Battle, entirely for the point of getting vanity loot.

  7. #67
    its a stupid concept when they dont implement it. think about how paragon spent 500+ pulls in 1 week trying to kill heroic rag... thats not a test of skill its a test of endurance.. limited attempts separate the good from the bads defining who can kill the boss with a competent strategy. plus its a heroic only boss so casuals will proly never see it anyway.

  8. #68
    I think its really hard to say. It depends on how hard the boss is and how fast top guilds can clear leishen hc. Will a top guild be able to kill him in lets say the first week alts will not matter, cause i doubt they will kill leishen heroic with the main raid and still have time to clear with alts (even if the are equally geared as their mains).

    On the second week if a top guild can rekill hc fast (which top guilds are very good at) then they will try to clear with their alts. Till now the limit on hc bosses really works out cause they will have to really know what they are doing and its about skill.

    3-4 weeks after leishen first kill it ill not matter cause most top guilds will have 1-2 alt groups by then which will result in having alot of try time on the boss. And they will do it. If you spent such a long time raiding you will not waste your trys u will try to get more trys with alts learn the boss then go with mainraid.

    after 4 weeks they will have pulled the boss 200+ times.
    Beeing able to kill ra den in the first two weeks would really shows who is the best of the best after that its who has the most alt raids to get attempts on ra den
    Last edited by Viromand; 2013-02-28 at 09:01 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxf2dxx View Post
    You're going to tell me that a single boss taking 25 minutes to kill isn't excessive?
    It took Gandalf 100 days to defeat the Balrog of Moria, and you complain about 25 minutes?!?!?
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Runewrath View Post
    Honestly, the difference between world first guilds and top 100 guilds is simply time spent raiding. Blizzard knows this and doesn't want a boss fight you can just put 300 attempts into in one week in order to kill it. So for the guilds that raid less, the boss is definitely a positive for them.
    I'm sure you have some proof of that.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Secrecy View Post
    I'm sure you have some proof of that.
    Concidering the amount of players in the top 10 guilds who comes from "top 100", who wants to try something more hardcore, it's a pretty safe bet. I know people in my guild who have left for the top end guilds who, while being good players, weren't really anything special apart from that. Some of them couldn't even handle class specific tasks (FNX, you better hope you don't get to kite shit again like on conclave <3).
    The fact is that the difference between a top 10 and top 100 is that a top 10 usually runs two raids and gets to stack alts, while a top 100 doesn't. Add the extra raiding hours during the start of a patch (my guild raids 18 hours a week - I've seen people on my real ID raid 18 hours a DAY for the first week of progress), and you've got a cocktail that'll get you to the top, not neccessarely through better play, but through sheer brute force.

  12. #72
    in ulduar, algalon had a 1 hour time limit, which meant people threw themselves mercilessly at the boss for an hour, then spent the rest of the week discussing tactics.

    in 5.2, ra-den has limited attempts to allow tactical discussions between attempts, rather than force people to run back as fast as possible and buff on the way so as not to waste any time.

    the limited attempts system is a much better way to approach a special hard mode only boss, the timed system just didn't sit right - if it was a single player game, or a gauntlet run it'd be a different story.
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by smokii View Post
    in ulduar, algalon had a 1 hour time limit, which meant people threw themselves mercilessly at the boss for an hour, then spent the rest of the week discussing tactics.

    in 5.2, ra-den has limited attempts to allow tactical discussions between attempts, rather than force people to run back as fast as possible and buff on the way so as not to waste any time.

    the limited attempts system is a much better way to approach a special hard mode only boss, the timed system just didn't sit right - if it was a single player game, or a gauntlet run it'd be a different story.
    A limited attempt system is not the way to go at all, though - I'd much rather see them implement a feature like TOTGC, where killing the boss with X remaining attempts gave you Y pieces of loot more (especially as the boss has +40 items on its loot table) - but where reaching "zero" attempts would not stop you from killing the boss and achieve the "normal" amount of loot.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    The idea is to try to do better each time with a more perfect strategy instead of just smashing yourself against the boss until it dies.
    Exactly as Dars said. Limited attempts make every attempt count even more so. There have been progression kills for world first etc within a few minutes of each other and that could be after a few hours of constant pulls on a boss. This really makes those guilds sweat with the limited attempts of taking even more time in carefully thinking of a strategy. Because with 30 pulls you won't get another chance until the week later and that rival guild of yours could of killed it well before then. That being said, Ra'den is a different kind of boss as a blue said and is 'easier' than Lei Shen where the real progression race in Blizzard's eyes are. Of course people will say Ra'den is the real final boss of the progression race even in spite of Blizzard stating they eye Lei Shen as the final bonus and this as a bonus. It doesn't matter in the hardcores eyes, a boss is there to die, it is progression and the ranking on the tables reflect that.

  15. #75
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    In 3.2 we had entire raid with limited attempts and it worked well.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zehiir View Post
    In 3.2 we had entire raid with limited attempts and it worked well.
    That's highly debatable. In fact, I'd say it was the exact opposite.

  17. #77
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    This is also BONUS boss, blizzard explicitly said that you aren't supposed to count it in your progression. It's designed to be treated like Protectors Heroic Elite mode, which was so overtuned on raid damage at first that it was propably impossible without full BIS geared raid. No one cares who killed them first, Sha of Fear HC kill mattered and that's it.

    Final boss of this tier is Lei Shen. Simple as that. Ra-den is only overtuned gimmick for people that done everything and try limit is there to PREVENT guilds banging their heads against impossible fight in world first race. This isn't progression race boss.

    As for alts - there was a blue regarding that matter - Ra'den requires the whole instance cleared on Heroic mode prior to him and Lei Shen will actually be HARDER fight that Ra-Den. It's not that easy to put an alt raid to clear whole raid on Heroic, at least not during first resets when the race is going on.

  18. #78
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Henako View Post
    The boss isn't to be considered part of normal progression. The idea behind it is that the boss will be very difficult, and limiting attempts forces the first kill to be more about who actually played better or came up with the superior strategy, rather than who bombed attempts at it until it died.
    While he is not a part of the normal mode progression (12 bosses), he'll certainly be considered as part of the heroic mode progression, since there'll be -13- heroic bosses.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    There is a blue reply to that - the fights are so tightly tuned that pushing alts through content is no real option. The thing is, this fight is at a skill level that probably like 5 guilds can compete for as world first - hell..could be only 3. So why worry if 30 or 50 or 100 guys are willing to either level alts or bash their heads for 72 hrs straight against a wall.

    I am not entirely sure what defines a "stupid" concept for you. Why worry about how guilds approach it? The guilds that will be in the race already spend every waking hour on the PTR.
    I really do not understand why this matters at all. The question was if limited attempts on this boss have any benefits. And it doesn't so I don't understand why people are trying to defend this lame attempt to keep people busy with another cap. Unless Blizzard is paying you I don't see any reason why someone would support this uncreative design of Blizzard. Maybe this is what people call fanboyism?

    Do you seriously want more limitations? Point caps, reputation caps, limited attempts, etc. Those things are only in the game so people don't do everything at once and then cancel their subscription instead of adding more content or longer lasting content. It's just a cheap way for Blizzard to keep people subscribed.
    If you want that then you should support this limited attempts on Ra-den too. If you don't care then you should not tell others to also not care but just leave them alone.

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