I don't want to read up tactics.

[Cirque]

I really hate that this game has turned into that. If you aren't on the bleeding edge of progression, everybody expects you to read their experiences, tips, and advice on the fights. Because Generation ADD just doesn't have time for wipes as your guild tries to learn fights anymore, amirite? The last time I was in a raiding guild, we didn't have that shit to read, we just went in, wiped time after time until we figured it out, felt so proud of ourselves, and moved onto the next fight. Can't do that now. One wipe and people start leaving your guild/raid in droves.

Granted, it's the same in 5 mans now. Even if it's your very first time setting foot in an instance, your party expects you to know the ins and outs of every pull, every fight in the place. And if you cause even one wipe, boom, you're out or the party falls apart. Sigh. I miss the good ol' days when people actually had patience.

There never were good old days like that. Everyone is expected to have experience, in every area of life, including gaming. If you had no exp in mara and caused a wipe you still got a shitstorm. It depends on who you group with, and since today that's with more random people who don't care about manners, well, you'll get more hate.

That said, Marxman, while that's definitely true and I completely agree with you, being such player myself and usually "winging" the fights as they come with little knowledge on the upcoming fight except the necessary mechanics (shared healthpools, energy levels, whatnot), it's not how it works for more casual players. With progression like we've had, there usually aren't even vids or strats to look up even if we wanted to. But anyhow, a problem that many casuals (for lack of a better word!) have is their lack of understanding on how to analyze problems and/or improve. And in all honesty that's really not their main issue to begin with. A very big factor in those wipes is, well, standing in fire. While you may see the blatantly obvious frost orb even without having read about it and understand this is not a thing you want to stand in, the majority of players in fact doesn't see it, and if they do aren't adding 1+1=?? to come to the conclusion to not stand in it. Look at the plethora of Horridon threads for a glimmer of this.

I don't mean to be condescending, and sorry if I sound like that, but that is why the majority of guilds will require you to look up tactics: so you don't wipe the guild through sheer stupidity and unnecessary mistakes. Good progression guilds have shit like that covered, death by common fire isn't even a topic that gets discussed let alone is ever an issue. Which is why they don't need the vids, because that's all the vids can get you. Inexperienced raid leaders can get tactics on non cutting edge progression bosses, or bosses that got nerfed, like normal modes too, where most tactics is a Works For Everyone. Tactics at more cutting-edge progress are usually so composition-focused that you can't even get that from a vid.

Which is why top 100 guilds and common guilds that are the majority cannot be compared.

[ZakAtack]

It's not that watching a strat vid or reading the boss's ability list in the Dungeon Journal will magically allow your raid to kill a boss. But it reduces the time overall to come in with prior knowledge. And if you're in a guild that focuses on progression, it will grate on the patience of raiders who do come prepared when one person shows up and says "what does this boss do?" Because then you have to wait and sit down and explain it while everyone who took, maybe, 15 minutes to watch a video/read up sits and waits and listens to things they already know.

Just stop with all the exaggeration of preparation vs practice. Of course you're going to wipe on non-LFR modes. But knowing that Horridon periodically does a frontal/back cone that will kill you if you stand in it can reduce 1 wipe if you know about it beforehand. And how many wipes can you reduce on Megaera by knowing how Cinders, Torrent of Ice and poison bomb work?

There's a difference between wiping because you're practicing and perfecting your pulls and wiping because you're literally learning the fight. And the game has evolved, bosses are more complicated and more is expected of players.

[Kreeshak]

3 minutes per boss. Say a farm night has 4-6 bosses and someone new is too damn lazy to read up. That's 12-18 minutes of raid time wasted. Not a lot? Well, it's 1-2 solid attempts at most bosses. Why should the other 9/24 people forgo a couple of boss attempts because you're too lazy to read up a little?

How many minutes do you lose because someone disconnected, someone had to go afk, somebody ass pulled, or someone who does knows the tactics simply did a mistake, or someone did actually read the tactics but can't adjust to a misfortune.

Why victimise the new guy over everyone else that is spending the raid's time?

Why is even raid time THAT important? What if you had more fun killing a few bosses less than that guild that is killing more bosses on a strict timetable?

Finally I claim that 2-3 minutes of baby sitting to tell the new guy the key moments of the fight is FAR more effective and faster than that newcomer watching 3-4 videos and reading 2 guides. While it is more fun as well.

For example Jin Rok normal(spelling i mean the first tot boss):

new guy, who is a melee dps, stand where the dk stands and do your rotation.

how hard is to actually tell him that and save him from the torture to watch a 5 minute video from a healer point of view?

[melodramocracy]

Reading up on tactics ruins the element of surprise, something that is pretty rudimentary to a good game experience.

Trying to find 9 other folks who agree with that, however, is likely to be like finding a needle in a haystack.

[Yakshamash]

Reading up on tactics ruins the element of surprise, something that is pretty rudimentary to a good game experience.

Trying to find 9 other folks who agree with that, however, is likely to be like finding a needle in a haystack.

F**k yeah! Me and my old guildies always done that way. It's more fun to figure tactics/fights on yourself. But, we always had 1 young boy who will come "prepared" for raid and laugh when we wipe, without telling us tactics. When we got sick of wiping, he tells us proper tactics so we can move on.

[BobAwesome]

I have and never will use Deadly Boss Mods or read the tatics before hand. Everyone who has ever said WoW is too easy has a plethora of addons that practically play the game for them. I highly recommend you(anyone willing too) and your friends give "Blind" raiding a shot, you'd be surprised just how interesting, challenging and most important, fun, fights are once you've stopped having them spoon fed to you.

[Zonex]

I have and never will use Deadly Boss Mods or read the tatics before hand. Everyone who has ever said WoW is too easy has a plethora of addons that practically play the game for them. I highly recommend you(anyone willing too) and your friends give "Blind" raiding a shot, you'd be surprised just how interesting, challenging and most important, fun, fights are once you've stopped having them spoon fed to you.

Your raid finder progression and ZERO normal OR heroic progression, speaks wonders for your argument.

[Kreeshak]

Your raid finder progression and ZERO normal OR heroic progression, speaks wonders for your argument.

What if he switched to another character but didn't update his armory?

You need to learn to comment on the arguments rathen than the job, income, marital status, race, skin color of the person that comments.
If the best progressed player in the world claimed that if you raid naked improves your performance, would his opinion be more relevant than anyone elses?

[Deleted]

Most guilds want their recruits to keep updated on their class, the raids and what happens during boss-fights. Your attitude might work in a very casual raiding-guild, but not in a progressing one. Reminds me of one guy we had as trial, he refused to go on Teamspeak because "if we wanted anything we could write it in r-chat".

[Kreeshak]

Most guilds want their recruits to keep updated on their class, the raids and what happens during boss-fights. Your attitude might work in a very casual raiding-guild, but not in a progressing one. Reminds me of one guy we had as trial, he refused to go on Teamspeak because "if we wanted anything we could write it in r-chat".

I've stopped raiding for 3-4 weeks yet we have similar progression. Shouldn't your attitude outprogress my attitude?

[Deleted]

I've stopped raiding for 3-4 weeks yet we have similar progression. Shouldn't your attitude outprogress my attitude?

Some people get carried in their raids, its not that rare. Personally I wouldnt want a player with a negative approach towards raiding like that.

[Venant]

How many minutes do you lose because someone disconnected, someone had to go afk, somebody ass pulled, or someone who does knows the tactics simply did a mistake, or someone did actually read the tactics but can't adjust to a misfortune.

Why victimise the new guy over everyone else that is spending the raid's time?

Why is even raid time THAT important? What if you had more fun killing a few bosses less than that guild that is killing more bosses on a strict timetable?

Finally I claim that 2-3 minutes of baby sitting to tell the new guy the key moments of the fight is FAR more effective and faster than that newcomer watching 3-4 videos and reading 2 guides. While it is more fun as well.

For example Jin Rok normal(spelling i mean the first tot boss):

So are you coming from the point of view of somebody who is currently pushing heroic ToT content? Even with everyone knowing the mechanics, you are going to potentially wipe 50 times on many of these encounters, and the encounters themselves are almost all 8 minute+ fights. Say it takes you 50 wipes to down a boss, and each attempt + downtime between attempts takes about 12 minutes, that is 600 minutes on a boss or 10 hours. Now consider that you have to clear all of the other content, assume you 1 shot all normal modes and you have other heroic bosses that you have already downed that may still cause wipes, and consider that there is tons of trash in ToT.

Just looking at the logistics here, time is an extremely limited resource, and most guilds don't want to raid more than 12 hours per week. The entire premise of your argument is that time doesn't matter in raiding, which I will assert is completely wrong. Consider also that there are people who need to actively organize these raids, and they need to keep everyone happy because if you have raiders stop playing it results in massive logistics issues that will make it even more difficult to progress.

You need to do everything in your power to make your raid succeed, because most raiding guilds end up having to walk a very fine line balancing time and resources. If you act selfishly because you find doing something like watching a video 'torture,' then consider what happens if all 25 other people in your raid act the same way: you end up with the guild falling apart.

Try looking at things from the point of view of somebody who actually has the responsibility for making these raids happen.

[Tsuna]

If you don't want to, don't. Why is this even a discussion? If your guild doesn't like it, gquit find new guild. I still don't know why this is a discussion. You make your own decisions, if you learn by doing then go do stuff, if you can study a boss fight on video and increase your likelihood of victory awesome. Point is, bringing it to the forums just to start a petty argument is utterly pointless. See what I did there?

[Aphrel]

fatboss guides are excellent. they explain all the machanics and gives you an overwiev of the fight then explains their way of handling said mechanics. they advice where one might wanan use bl/hero and when tanks/healers might wanna use their cds and so on..

[Kreeshak]

Some people get carried in their raids, its not that rare. Personally I wouldnt want a player with a negative approach towards raiding like that.

Are you saying I got carried?

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 02:26 PM ----------

If you don't want to, don't. Why is this even a discussion? If your guild doesn't like it, gquit find new guild. I still don't know why this is a discussion. You make your own decisions, if you learn by doing then go do stuff, if you can study a boss fight on video and increase your likelihood of victory awesome. Point is, bringing it to the forums just to start a petty argument is utterly pointless. See what I did there?

Because I make a claim that raiding has become less fun, because of amongst other reasons stereotypes like "read tactics". Bad guilds with horrible progression might recruit a horrible player who does read tactics, over a better player that doesn't.

As if a football coach with the typical italian defensive mentality (catenaccio) would turn down a quality offensive player because he doesn't defend.

---------- Post added 2013-05-19 at 02:29 PM ----------

If you act selfishly because you find doing something like watching a video 'torture,' then consider what happens if all 25 other people in your raid act the same way: you end up with the guild falling apart.

or you end up with less progression but more fun?

[Deleted]

Because I make a claim that raiding has become less fun, because of amongst other reasons stereotypes like "read tactics". Bad guilds with horrible progression might recruit a horrible player who does read tactics, over a better player that doesn't.

As if a football coach with the typical italian defensive mentality (catenaccio) would turn down a quality offensive player because he doesn't defend.

A football coach wouldn't bring a guy to an important game that doesn't know anything about it and just want to fool around, wouldn't he?

For raiding it's a question about time. You can either spend some time before the actual get together and have a general idea of what's going on or spend half of your raiding time with explaining basics, etc instead of actually playing the game. There's no good or bad (or right & wrong) in that, just a question about priorities.

[Kreeshak]

A football coach wouldn't bring a guy to an important game that doesn't know anything about it and just want to fool around, wouldn't he?

For raiding it's a question about time. You can either spend some time before the actual get together and have a general idea of what's going on or spend half of your raiding time with explaining basics, etc instead of actually playing the game. There's no good or bad (or right & wrong) in that, just a question about priorities.

Football is not rocket science, neither is raiding. If you are great at technique, dribbling, pace, strength, agility, goalscoring BUT can't tackle or can't defend you would still be relatively better than someone with poor offensive abilities but great at defending.

[Venant]

Football is not rocket science, neither is raiding. If you are great at technique, dribbling, pace, strength, agility, goalscoring BUT can't tackle or can't defend you would still be relatively better than someone with poor offensive abilities but great at defending.

Maybe your talking about playing a pickup game with locals (LFR/Normal Mode raiding) and he is talking about playing in College/NFL (heroic raiding). If you are going for heroic progression then you quickly realize that everything is going to take a ton of wipes, which means a ton of time. I don't think anyone is going to argue that you need to be super serious to full clear ToT on normal mode, once you get enough 522 gear you can probably do it with 20 people.

[brenan lim]

reading tactics is a bit boring but still it is important to read it.

[HardCoder]

reading tactics is a bit boring but still it is important to read it.

It's a lot like reading the end of a book before you start it. Great, if all that's important to you is how it ends.