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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    Clearly Blizzard doesn't agree with you in a public capacity, so there's no need to white knight for them any longer. The verdict is in and they agree their game blows.

    Reading some of his ideas gives me a lot of hope for the future, some of them still make me think they have no clue. I'm up in the air, but it seems more positive than otherwise. Hopefully he's given the powah to actually do some of these things. A lot of his loot ideas would be great. Make items useful, make more stats useful, have less drops and make them actually good.

    We shall see what actually happens.
    They have said that some things need changing, and stated there own view of the points that were raised, they have never said the game is bad or "blows" to quote yourself, there is a huge difference and saying it blows is being rather over dramatic and exaggerating.

    And given the sales etc no the game does not need saving, it may need adjusting and more tweaks etc but certainly not saving lol
    Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men: Jean Rostand. Yeah, Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour!.
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  2. #42
    Stood in the Fire Zenko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughty8 View Post
    And again we are going back to: most hardcore and pathologicial and addicted players post on the forum complaining about the game, while those who stand as +80% of playerbase, just play it from time to time. I wish we could have any data about "played at least 1h/week" players number vs hardcore playerbase. If I am happy and I am playing, it means that I care about the game and I am happy with it. Is is soo hard to understand?

    Check the number of active WoW posters who complain vs even an 1/4th of the subscriptions number.
    Posting on forums doesnt make one 'hardcore.' I play less than 1h a week on average. What now? If you're happy then this thread isnt for you.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenko View Post
    Posting on forums doesnt make one 'hardcore.' I play less than 1h a week on average. What now? If you're happy then this thread isnt for you.
    Your missing the point he was making, that its a small minority that actually post on the games forums whether wow or D£ etc, and its a small minority of THAT small minority that see all these faults as they see it and are vocal. So end of the day there is no real "everyone thinks this" or general consensus in the player base only those that are motivated to post or are bothered to post. And on top of that there is a lot of subjective "this in my opnion" issues to, you may think the game is crap and not worth buying, the next guy may think its great etc. And the only way to judge this is by how many buy the game and play it for any length of time.

    And in the context of "hardcore" he meant ppl who played the game for longer than a week or so. I'll use myself as an example I played it for about 4 weeks and have not played since. I went back to wow as friends there were involved, I don't miss D3 it. I don't think it was this awfully designed game that was rubbish etc that people are saying it is now, I would hope the changes they have made have made a reasonably good game better, if they have not well thats poor design but again its subjective.

    What I got bored of was completing the same content 4 times etc on multiple chars, I got bored of the same thing basically, but I knew what it would be like when buying it and I enjoyed what I played of it. I'm generally like that with a lot of games single player based games and they have to be really really good or innovative to get me to complete them many times and still retain my interest.
    Science has made us gods even before we are worthy of being men: Jean Rostand. Yeah, Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair colour!.
    Classic: "The tank is the driver, the healer is the fuel, and the DPS are the kids sitting in the back seat screaming and asking if they're there yet."
    Irony >> "do they even realize that having a state religion IS THE REASON WE LEFT BRITTEN? god these people are idiots"

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenko View Post
    Posting on forums doesnt make one 'hardcore.' I play less than 1h a week on average. What now? If you're happy then this thread isnt for you.
    You are you and the playerbase is playerbase. I see no poin in this discussion, as lack of understanding basic concepts on your side is horrible. Enjoy wasted time on the forum. There are reasons why normal, cool ppl avoid forums, you reminded me one of these reasons.

    Thanks Shakari for explaining my point Thats exactly what I wanted to say.
    Last edited by Slaughty8; 2013-03-03 at 01:01 PM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by traen View Post
    Are you talking about "the genre" no one bothers to develop games in?
    Wonder why... the market is obviously there. Oh wait... not a safe investment to compete with Blizzard.

    D3 graphics sucks. Its at least 5 years old. Its unbeilivable that they wasted so much money and were not able to release the game with up-to-date graphics. D3 engine sucks. Its slow, it does not support modern hardware and new(and by new I mean 5 years old new) directx features.
    There's a big difference between engine and graphics. There's also a big difference between having features in directx and your game needing them.
    You should take a closer look at the very popular games atm and you'll notice a trend.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by abijax View Post
    Less subjective retarded arguments maybe? It has the most varied, well implemented (audio and visual) and most balanced skills by FAR in this genre. That's not even up for debate. Balance wise is not even Blizzard's merit, is just that the competition is unbelievably broken in that respect. And TL2 devs don't even bother with it, at least with PoE there's some hope.
    Same for the environments, you might not like the overall style, you prefer more colorful (TL2) or dark and gritty(PoE), but the variety and details are miles ahead in D3. Not to mention how well they actually support the gameplay, the visual clusterfuck and eyestrain being avoided as much as possible.
    i don't know what you mean by balanced skills or what they're balancing against.

  7. #47
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    The longer view is that the game is better now than at release and it's apparent that Blizzard is in for the long run with it. After being away from it for several months and dumping all of my characters overboard, I'm now playing found only and have checked out of the economy entirely. I probably should start up something on the HC side but I don't care to invest time in anything that can get killed by something outside of my own bad play or standard game RNG. What I'm doing now is a much better game. It's basically stupid to expect one to go outfit themselves on the AH and then play the game expecting to see drops that will benefit oneself in any way.

    In any case I'm waiting to see what the expansion brings. Gosu's post over at the Blizzard boards was quite good as was Travis's response. Allowing that some things are baked into the design and not amenable to being changed, I'm somewhat optimistic about where things will be in a year. In the meanwhile I play four hours a week or so and haven't gotten bored with it for now. I don't know that those that expect D3 to be an immersive six-to-eight hour a day game that will last for another decade are being realistic or reasonable.

    So, good and bad, pretty much like every other major game out there. I've played D3, D2, both Torchlights, PoE and Titan Quest during the last couple of months and can enjoy the things that each one does well and pretty much ignore the things they don't.
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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    The longer view is that the game is better now than at release and it's apparent that Blizzard is in for the long run with it. .
    In it for the long run doesn't necessarily mean they are in it to fix this game and do what's required to fix it. In it for the long run likely means many fixes I'll have to buy with an expansion. In it for the long run doesn't give me a single bit of hope. If the long run is just more of the same fixes then they may as well have kept Jay. At least Jay was amusing with his occasionally memorable outbursts and propensity for generating memes.

  9. #49
    Looks like someone played d3, poe and tl2. Took the good stuff from them and claimed they were their idea's.

    I didnt read much but the challenge section made me chuckle. Belial was a good fight? Lmao, you couldnt move without clicking on him in vanilla. Small room big boss frame and stuff on ground, ya thats great design... Not to mention hitting escape twice so he shuts up.

    " This style of damage dealing forces players into figuring out ways to permanently avoid the challenge instead of overcoming it in a fun way. Mortars, molten, electric, plagued…most people just stand in all this stuff because it’s either too difficult or too time consuming/inefficient to avoid"

    Wtf is this guy talking about? Aside from monks fighting ranged monsters who stand in three piles of crap on ground i have no idea what they are talking about. Clearly a low mp running barb, never figured out how to play other classes.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    In it for the long run doesn't necessarily mean they are in it to fix this game and do what's required to fix it. In it for the long run likely means many fixes I'll have to buy with an expansion. In it for the long run doesn't give me a single bit of hope.
    'Fix' is a funny word because what might be a fix for me might break something for you. People use the word as some sort of objective goal but it's not. When people talk about fixing something in a design more often than not they're talking about something that's purely subjective. Things that are very intensely disliked are baked into the design of the game and there's little to be done about that now. I know that people like to think that everything they don't like is some module that's easily pulled out, changed and replaced without affecting anything else but you and I both know it really doesn't work like that. Blizzard's biggest problems in all of their games are generally those they cause for themselves by attempting to do something and getting caught up in unintended and unforeseen consequences. That's not specific to Blizzard either. It's what happens when you change the underlying assumptions of a design for just about anything.

    As for Jay, I'm glad he's gone for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Memorable outbursts and meme generation are stupid distractions. Same for Bashiok as a D3 CM really. I like him and glad he's back on WoW and find it amusing that there have been a few threads about how he's missed over there. When someone speaks for the game and the response is more personal than about what was actually said, they need to go.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-03-03 at 10:47 PM.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadwix View Post
    Looks like someone played d3, poe and tl2. Took the good stuff from them and claimed they were their idea's.
    I've played all three games, none of his suggestions hint at the fact they are "stolen" from other games.

    Quote Originally Posted by chadwix View Post
    Wtf is this guy talking about? Aside from monks fighting ranged monsters who stand in three piles of crap on ground i have no idea what they are talking about. Clearly a low mp running barb, never figured out how to play other classes.
    If you bothered to look at his profile, he has every class at level 60, with around 60k elite kills total, a barbarian with what looks like a Hammer of the Ancients build, almost 200k dps, and maxed out paragon levels. I'm pretty sure he's not.You can't really fault someone for not knowing everything about every class. It takes a specific kind of hardcore gaming to to play every class at max level so much that you know so much about them. His monk stuff (particularly the signature attack stuff) was pretty much spot on. There's no reason that two of them are so low-range or single-target, and another requires a rune to do any kind of aoe damage.

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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    'Fix' is a funny word because what might be a fix for me might break something for you. People use the word as some sort of objective goal but it's not. When people talk about fixing something in a design game more often than not they're talking about something that's purely subjective. Things that are very intensely disliked are baked into the design of the game and there's little to be done about that now. I know that people like to think that everything they don't like is some module that's easily pulled out, changed and replaced without affecting anything else but you and I both know it really doesn't work like that. Blizzard's biggest problems in all of their games are generally those they cause for themselves by attempting to do something and getting caught up in unintended and unforeseen consequences. That's not specific to Blizzard either. It's what happens when you change the underlying assumptions of a design for just about anything.

    As for Jay, I'm glad he's gone for exactly the reasons you mentioned. Memorable outbursts and meme generation are stupid distractions. Same for Bashiok as a D3 CM really. I like him and glad he's back on WoW and find it amusing that there have been a few threads about how he's missed over there. When someone speaks for the game and the response is more personal than about what was actually said, they need to go.
    I never said it would easily replaced or changed but the age old truism that if something was easy it wouldn't be worth doing is true here as well. If the developers AREN'T willing to remove or change those things are intensely disliked even if they are baked into the game design then the game probably isn't worth "saving". I mean it's all relative I agree but were not talking physics here, any conversation I'm gonna have and this guy post overall is indeed all subjective reasoning.

    Look Offline only was considered "baked" in and not easily changed and yet for the console versions were getting exactly that. Were getting UI and controller changes. A whole mess of stuff. That attention should be payed to the pc version as well.

    As much as I can't believe I'm saying this I would honestly rather have Jay back. Everything I read from Travis Day was basically just more of the same. Well if that's the case then they may as well have kept Jay. Jay knew what he was doing in so far as he was doing the wrong things. It doesn't make sense to replace the guy with someone who's not only not gonna "fix" anything but is gonna have a harder time doing it because well hes new here. In addition to this Jay was amusing as hell. Game needs all the distractions it can get.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-03 at 10:44 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I never said it would easily replaced or changed but the age old truism that if something was easy it wouldn't be worth doing is true here as well. If the developers AREN'T willing to remove or change those things are intensely disliked even if they are baked into the game design then the game probably isn't worth "saving". I mean it's all relative I agree but were not talking physics here, any conversation I'm gonna have and this guy post overall is indeed all subjective reasoning.
    I didn't mean to imply that you said that things were easily replaceable. I was speaking more generally so apologies for being unclear. Lots of people do think that after all. As for rest of what I quoted we agree. It's their design after all and not a community open source project. They can listen and decide and if they decide in a way you or I don't care for, then I assume we would move on to something else considering the game a disappointing loss never to be spoken of again. They can't please everyone obviously and I can't think of any profound reason why they would listen to you or me either if what we talked about went against how they see the game.

    People other than you or I can attempt to dictate terms to Blizzard about how the game should be but it's the dev's decision at the end of the day. I'm...OK is the best word for it...with the game as it is now. But just OK and quite frankly happy enough that I didn't plunk down 60 bucks for it (AP holder here). How I would make it better so I would think it's more than OK would likely piss off more people than would like it and I'm guessing that's true for most other would-be game designers out there. Gosu's post was pretty remarkable and described a pretty interesting framework for the game but if Blizzard could magically produce an alternate version of exactly that by Tuesday, people would still crawl over it about how terrible it is. For now, I'm awaiting a description of what will be in the expansion. Meanwhile, it's an enjoyable--but only in small doses--thing to play.
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    I didn't mean to imply that you said that things were easily replaceable. I was speaking more generally so apologies for being unclear. Lots of people do think that after all. As for rest of what I quoted we agree. It's their design after all and not a community open source project. They can listen and decide and if they decide in a way you or I don't care for, then I assume we would move on to something else considering the game a disappointing loss never to be spoken of again. They can't please everyone obviously and I can't think of any profound reason why they would listen to you or me either if what we talked about went against how they see the game.

    People other than you or I can attempt to dictate terms to Blizzard about how the game should be but it's the dev's decision at the end of the day. I'm...OK is the best word for it...with the game as it is now. But just OK and quite frankly happy enough that I didn't plunk down 60 bucks for it (AP holder here). How I would make it better so I would think it's more than OK would likely piss off more people than would like it and I'm guessing that's true for most other would-be game designers out there. Gosu's post was pretty remarkable and described a pretty interesting framework for the game but if Blizzard could magically produce an alternate version of exactly that by Tuesday, people would still crawl over it about how terrible it is. For now, I'm awaiting a description of what will be in the expansion. Meanwhile, it's an enjoyable--but only in small doses--thing to play.
    My biggest concern is that said expansion will simple contain "fixes" for problems that should be addressed in patches and really should have been hashed in beta and in some cases were settled in diablo 2 and that's it. Like I'd rather not have the expansion just be LoD. It needs to be more than that. Otherwise I can play free to play versions of the game that are better.

  15. #55
    Pandaren Monk Iamanerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slaughty8 View Post
    You are you and the playerbase is playerbase. I see no poin in this discussion, as lack of understanding basic concepts on your side is horrible. Enjoy wasted time on the forum. There are reasons why normal, cool ppl avoid forums, you reminded me one of these reasons.

    Thanks Shakari for explaining my point Thats exactly what I wanted to say.
    While I stopped playing D3 2 weeks in, do you enjoy trying to prove others wrong and that your so called "basic concepts" are right? Seriously I've never seen someone talk out their ass so much. The funny part is you think the people who don't like the game or think there is some serious faults with it are the hardcores or people that play a lot, when a lot people stopped playing early on and the only reason D3 sold well is because it built off D2's fame.

    Also to your little I'd like to see the age/intelligence/behavior of the forum posters I'll give you mine: 21, degree in nuclear engineering and working on a Computer science degree, I play a decent amount now due to down time with school and I'm waiting for a contract at a nuclear plant for an outage to start in April. Diablo 3 to me is a sick joke and blizzard is just cash grabbing where as a small team who made PoE with one programmer managed to do a better job then Blizzard with their budget. Despicable.

    When I say I play a decent amount I mean games like Borderlands 2/Crysis 3 and some other random games as I mainly focus on some small coding projects I set up for myself.
    Last edited by Iamanerd; 2013-03-03 at 11:15 PM.
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  16. #56
    My biggest problem with his post, and it falls under most categories, is the "I don't like this, so I, speaking for everyone(because everyone must thing the same), think it should be removed" attitude.

    I have no problem with people saying "this game would be better if they added "X"", even if X is gonna make my Y a little bit harder to get, or change Y a little.
    I just hate when people go OMG I think Y sucks, take it away and give everyone X instead.

    Like certain modifiers, he mentioned the on hits, fear, freeze, etc. I like these. Their are other people who like these. So don't talk like everyone hates them.
    Should there be more? Yes! I'd like to see more "cast of hits" casting skills, and such like that, but I don't think you should take existing ones away. I don't beleive you ever make a game like diablo better by giving people less choices. Yes, bad items get rolled, thats kinda the point of diablo imo, rolling items again and again getting ever closer to perfection.

    He also contradicts his own statements, saying he wants a system that encourages more diversity in skills builds, but then proposes a stat system that only affects popular skills....

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by teddytous View Post
    My biggest problem with his post, and it falls under most categories, is the "I don't like this, so I, speaking for everyone(because everyone must thing the same), think it should be removed" attitude.

    I have no problem with people saying "this game would be better if they added "X"", even if X is gonna make my Y a little bit harder to get, or change Y a little.
    I just hate when people go OMG I think Y sucks, take it away and give everyone X instead.

    Like certain modifiers, he mentioned the on hits, fear, freeze, etc. I like these. Their are other people who like these. So don't talk like everyone hates them.
    Should there be more? Yes! I'd like to see more "cast of hits" casting skills, and such like that, but I don't think you should take existing ones away. I don't beleive you ever make a game like diablo better by giving people less choices. Yes, bad items get rolled, thats kinda the point of diablo imo, rolling items again and again getting ever closer to perfection.

    He also contradicts his own statements, saying he wants a system that encourages more diversity in skills builds, but then proposes a stat system that only affects popular skills....
    I think your misreading him a little bit. IN some cases with the modifiers he only mentions them because alot of them do the same thing and you don't really need 3 or 4 modifiers to do the same thing. It's okay if you like slow on hit but do you also need the two other affixes that also do the same thing? wouldn't it be better to just roll them into one and then add neat stuff like instant kill or chance to cast twice?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by teddytous View Post
    My biggest problem with his post, and it falls under most categories, is the "I don't like this, so I, speaking for everyone(because everyone must thing the same), think it should be removed" attitude.

    I have no problem with people saying "this game would be better if they added "X"", even if X is gonna make my Y a little bit harder to get, or change Y a little.
    I just hate when people go OMG I think Y sucks, take it away and give everyone X instead.
    The sheer size of his post makes me think he overvalues his opinions.

    Pend, i did look at his profile, sure he has all 5 chars at lvl 60 but they have mp1 type specs (aside from barb, where he is very close but went with noob instigate cause he doesnt know how to manage rage yet).

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by chadwix View Post
    The sheer size of his post makes me think he overvalues his opinions.
    I guess you think Hawking overvalues his opinions too? Maybe everyone who writes a doctoral thesis is clearly just full of it...they ramble on for far too long.

    Is this really your criticism of someone's credibility because they typed too much? FFS.
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  20. #60
    Stood in the Fire Zenko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    I guess you think Hawking overvalues his opinions too? Maybe everyone who writes a doctoral thesis is clearly just full of it...they ramble on for far too long.

    Is this really your criticism of someone's credibility because they typed too much? FFS.
    Right? I didnt read it because im lazy. At least I can admit that.

    Im laughing at the dude who got banned trying to say im not 'cool' or whatever. At least im not belligerent telling people that they're addicted and their opinion sucks *rolls eyes*

    If people cant come up with decent discussion then this game wont improve. If people like it as is then god bless them, but there is always room for improvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    As much as I can't believe I'm saying this I would honestly rather have Jay back. Everything I read from Travis Day was basically just more of the same. Well if that's the case then they may as well have kept Jay. Jay knew what he was doing in so far as he was doing the wrong things. It doesn't make sense to replace the guy with someone who's not only not gonna "fix" anything but is gonna have a harder time doing it because well hes new here. In addition to this Jay was amusing as hell. Game needs all the distractions it can get.
    Nooo dont say that lol. Is this Travis guy really his replacement? Give him 2-3 patches. I like his attitude a lot more. Humility goes a long way.
    Last edited by Zenko; 2013-03-04 at 11:45 PM.

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