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  1. #381
    Over 9000! Nindoriel's Avatar
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    The reason they acknowledge it is because a lot of players feel that way. They are really only trying to reflect the players opinion here as they have to in order to improve the game. I guess you can say that if so many players felt that way there has to at least be something to it. I guess they were mandatory to some degree for players who wanted to be competitive. However most people have exaggerated, it wasn't actually that bad for a lot of reasons.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2013-03-03 at 05:07 PM.

  2. #382
    I don't know, when they say "dailies felt TOO mandatory". That in my books means that dailies were at least SOMEWHAT mandatory. Dailies can't feel too mandatory if they are not mandatory to begin with.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Well, there are those chests which award reputation (do they? I purged that horible grind out of my memory). Too bad they're only available after revered Golden Lotus when you *no longer need them*... I seriously wonder who had this brilliant idea of gating them as well.
    You can get keys to access chests right from the start. Granted, more of the underground area that has the chests opens out when you have higher rep, but sometimes a chest will spawn right on the stairs, or in the first room.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by dense View Post
    they don't say they are mandatory, they say they feel mandatory.
    Which is the right way to approach it, because they really weren't. You can get LFR ready without doing a single daily (HoF and Terrace drops being ~6 iLvls behind most valor gear), which can gear you appropriately for Normal raiding. Getting from MSV to HoF - Terrace can be a pain, but that's the nature of gear progression. You can skyrocket your ilvl just by doing the 5.1 dailies, at about 20m a day.

    I think the root of the problem lies with the history of valor gear. Being that it was so easily available before, it was expected that you get your valor cap for the week, and had all of your items by a specific date. For some players it'd be the strongest gear they'd ever obtain, with only a 7 dungeon-run (chain them all in a single day if you'd like) investment. After which, they sat around in Stormwind / Org doing nothing.

    The shift in paradigm didn't come with a shift in attitude by players. It's unfortunate that the majority of players feel like they need everything immediately; there's a huge time investment required to do every single daily every single day to hit that sweet spot, but that wasn't the point.

    I never understood the rush to get everything done as soon as possible. Even if you were going to, you can't even afford all that gear you unlocked. It's going to take you a few months just to have the valor available to buy all that gear. Pacing yourself is just as effective, and much more enjoyable.

    I also feel that Golden Lotus pacing did more immediate harm than anything else. It took way too long to get anywhere. The rest weren't too bad. Cloud Serpent takes less than a week (3ish days with commendation). Klaxxi starts halfway through honoured after the zone quests (revered after the commendation).

    August Celestials could actually use more quests to improve pacing.
    Shado-Pan felt appropriate, though could've used some more front-end quests in Townlong to bolster rep gain.

    I think the way they approached the 5.1 questline is fantastic, weaving story quests between varying dailies, ultimately throwing more of them in as you get closer to exalted. The pacing felt perfect, and I was genuinely interested to keep up.

    I can understand the frustration with crafting recipes are locked behind reputation. Not sure why we're using that archaic model... should just make them account bound already. Beyond that, though, it's not really a big dea.

    The argument really boils down to semantics, though. The fact is (not opinion, fact) that it is perfectly feasible to progress into higher tiers of raiding without doing a single daily. You're inevitably going to get stronger, faster, if you participate (that's the nature of the genre), but in no way are they mandatory to progress your character.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-03 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Clarity, structure, grammar.

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of time it would take to gear your character in this way. If we take you figures of 50K JP needing roughly 300 Heroic runs then 21000 JP will take around 125 runs. Unless you are a tank or a healer you will spend roughly 10-15 minutes waiting in the queue this alone will amount to 20-30 hours of game time spent queuing.
    Geared 5 chars this way, all hit 470 2-3 days after hitting lvl90. Though ofc now I have a darkmoon trinket to ship around to whoever needs it. (No need for flying if u never leave town)
    Though DPS que at "prime time" is not that long. Did some 5man runs with my guild, every jadeserpent is 8min~
    If you call that waiting time for gametime, does it mean that u farm/do dailies during it?

    125 runs would be at worst RNG ever, and if u do it very casual u might hit a new week and can do Sha/MSV again. Any epic item would remove atleast 9 runs.

  6. #386
    If it boils down to semantics you're just trying to win an argument on a technicality. Great. You win. Now you can stop. The thing is, it doesn't really matter what you say the semantics are. People who are invested in the game and want to see their raid team succeed have a drive that makes them go for any advantage they can get to ensure the greatest chance of their success. You can sit there and imply the whole "smh at people who threw themselves into dailies" and "stupid people working too hard for their goals" but these people are doing it, they get burnt out and they quit.

    Forum posts about how dailies are mandatory isn't semantically correct isn't going to bring them back. Getting the system brought back to something sane is going to bring them back. These types of arguments are a completely counter-productive enterprise and should be called out for the borderline concern trolling that it is.

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    Welcome to what raiding was back in Vanilla and BC, farming content for ages with no guarantee of an upgrade for months.
    and I raided in Vanilla and BC...and I have no problem with that as such. However, you cant sit there and say that dailies virtually mandatory for progression in their current form, especially for the casual player

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 05:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The contrary, I was extremely unlucky.

    1) There are other ways to make money besides creating armour.
    2) People hardly 'ninja' loot in dungeons.
    3) It doesn't take that long, except for 1 in a million people.
    4) With bad luck, you might be one month behind everyone else.

    Isn't that terrible? A system where, if you start a month later, you are behind a month.
    How dare they!?
    1. Sure...like enchanting...oh wait..thats rep..alch maybe? inscrip? so thats what..2 crafting professions
    2. What server/battlegroup do you play on then? Im xferring then...
    3. Its all rng based...going on the base that you are casual and can run maybe 1-2 heroics a day, it could become a VERY long process
    4. again, totally rng based

    And no, its not terrible, just dont sit there like a noob and tell people that the only way to spend valor/get crafting patterns/upgrades outside raiding is optional...because its not

  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ehrenpanzer View Post
    1. Sure...like enchanting...oh wait..thats rep..alch maybe? inscrip? so thats what..2 crafting professions
    2. What server/battlegroup do you play on then? Im xferring then...
    3. Its all rng based...going on the base that you are casual and can run maybe 1-2 heroics a day, it could become a VERY long process
    4. again, totally rng based

    And no, its not terrible, just dont sit there like a noob and tell people that the only way to spend valor/get crafting patterns/upgrades outside raiding is optional...because its not
    1. Yes, I'm making money with both those professions without touching dailies.
    2. Twisting Nether-EU. The trollish behaviour is really rare in my realm, LFD and LFR.
    3. RNG is still a chance. 10% means you can expect it to drop every 10 kills.
    4. RNG can be calculated.

    I didn't do it and I am ready to raid 5.2 and I had around 10k gold all the time.
    So I have proven that it is optional

  9. #389
    Herald of the Titans Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    3. RNG is still a chance. 10% means you can expect it to drop every 10 kills.
    4. RNG can be calculated.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

  10. #390
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    They are mandatory for anyone even semi serious about progression. They are burning people out fast, they need to go diaf if they think I want to do dailys and play farmville everyday just to keep from getting bored and unsubbing, if anything this would make me unsub.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliladon View Post
    If it boils down to semantics you're just trying to win an argument on a technicality. Great. You win. Now you can stop. The thing is, it doesn't really matter what you say the semantics are. People who are invested in the game and want to see their raid team succeed have a drive that makes them go for any advantage they can get to ensure the greatest chance of their success. You can sit there and imply the whole "smh at people who threw themselves into dailies" and "stupid people working too hard for their goals" but these people are doing it, they get burnt out and they quit.

    Forum posts about how dailies are mandatory isn't semantically correct isn't going to bring them back. Getting the system brought back to something sane is going to bring them back. These types of arguments are a completely counter-productive enterprise and should be called out for the borderline concern trolling that it is.
    At some point it just becomes whining that we actually have to play the game. The majority of complaints, especially early in the expansion cycle, consisted of "how are we supposed to do all dailies everyday." The answer from both Blizzard and the rest of the community was "you don't have to." Apparently that answer wasn't satisfactory, despite that it's mathematically unfeasible to want to grind everything out as fast as possible.

    We'll use the Klaxxi as an example, because they're the fastest to hit revered.
    Start at approximately 6000 reputation from revered. (after zone quests)
    Their daily quests provide 5460 per week. It takes about eight days from a fresh ninety without the commendation. We'll assume Nine days overall to account for the zone quests providing Klaxxi repuation.

    Those nine days unlock 5250 Valor worth of rewards.
    This is all assuming you don't have a commendation from a previous main. You can hit revered without even finishing the zone. That's a single day for 5250 Valor worth of rewards.

    2000 possible Valor at point of Revered. 3250 Valor discrepancy. In the four weeks it takes to afford all of those rewards, you could EASILY get another reputation to revered just by focusing on one of them at a time. You'd probably get most of the way through another, too.

    It's going to take six weeks to just obtain all Klaxxi related rewards, so it just doesn't make sense to rush all reputations simultaneously. There's another 5750 Valor required for Golden Lotus gear, 6500 for 5.1 reputations, 4750 for August Celestials, and 5250 from the Shado-Pan.

    It's going to take 29500 Valor (30 weeks) until you can afford all of the rewards. There's no point in focusing and grinding multiple reputations at once; it serves absolutely no purpose gear-wise.

    As for worries about being cutting edge, and maximizing yourself for the raid, etc... that doesn't hold much water when considering the above, and that normal raid rewards are already higher in power than the reputation rewards (excepting 5.1).

    I have no sympathy for people who don't pace themselves accordingly and become burnt out, sorry. Blizzard tried babysitting people before, and we wound up with nothing to do. They take off the chains, and now there's "too much". It's the equivalent of going to a buffet, and complaining to the chef when you eat too much food too quickly.

    I'm ambivalent about the decision to move valor behind raid-rep rewards; note that I'm not advocating locking them behind world-reputations either, but placing behind reputation really REALLY isn't nearly as much of a big deal as the community would claim.

    It's tiring to see players whining, wanting what effectively amounts to sitting in a dungeon for the entirety of their playtime. It speaks to the sense of entitlement existent in a portion of the playerbase, more so than it does about Blizzard's design decisions. The torches and pitchforks raised is just par for the course, and it's getting exhausting.

    It's a perfectly reasonable system to get players out into the world, and it worked. There's no need to provoke players into the world for 5.2 because everyone is localized on a single island, so the new system serves it purpose.

    Pontificating and labelling me a 'borderline troll' isn't helpful to the discussion, either.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-03 at 07:00 PM. Reason: Clarity, structure.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    1. Yes, I'm making money with both those professions without touching dailies.
    Should we all drop our current professions and get those?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I didn't do it and I am ready to raid 5.2 and I had around 10k gold all the time.
    So I have proven that it is optional
    You have proven to be either extremely lucky in wow or a liar.
    Remember, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    Words words words
    I see words but nothing productive. Can you people please go away? We get it. Your horse is high. You sit atop it. You're perfectly comfortable in this situation. Meanwhile we continue to lose our friends and they're not coming back. The system is broken.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliladon View Post
    I see words but nothing productive. Can you people please go away? We get it. Your horse is high. You sit atop it. You're perfectly comfortable in this situation. Meanwhile we continue to lose our friends and they're not coming back. The system is broken.
    And your additions to this discussion are much more helpful, are they?

    Please, your contribution has been nothing beyond the dismissal of perfectly reasonable posts. Players leave the game, that's inevitable. Blaming design decisions for people burning themselves out, or losing interest in the game, is nothing short of whining.

    The only problem with the current system is an inflated sense of what players think they deserve.

    Refute my points, or leave, but don't come in here claiming that I'm just pontificating and talking down to the community. You do nothing by diminutizing the posts of other players who disagree with your stance.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-03 at 06:58 PM.

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    And your additions to this discussion are much more helpful, are they?

    Please, your contribution has been nothing beyond the dismissal of perfectly reasonable posts. Players leave the game, that's inevitable. Blaming design decisions for people burning themselves out, or losing interest in the game, is nothing short of whining.

    Refute my points, or leave, but don't pontificate and diminutize the posts of other players who disagree with your stance.
    Refute what points? That if I show people enough forums posts about how stupid they are for burning themselves out they'll take it easy and come back? Everyone's already made the points to how and why we should fix it but I can recite the 5 best ones once again if you like. But still we have to contend with people like you victim blaming and white knighting for no other reason than apparently Blizzard can do no wrong. It wouldn't affect you or anybody else in the slightest if they left everything in place and gave people decent alternatives to the busywork shitfest they call non-raid character progression. At this point it only reads as spite.

    Our 25 is only surviving because it's the top alliance 25 on the server and able to attract applicants. The rest of the 25s have stalled or split to 10s. Our applicants these days tend to come in chunks of 3 or 4 from guilds who have completely collapsed. People cite sub numbers and handwave away problems but our raids live and die by what Blizzard does and right now we're barely treading water. Already some last raid nights of the week we just don't form even though we're recruiting like crazy. Death of our raid group almost appears to be an inevitability at this point and instead of recognition of the situation as untenable we have to endure this same shitfight over and over again simply because a segment of the community has to feel morally superior in some way or fashion.

    Raiding isn't as accessible, the requirements in skill and gear for seemingly moderate success has been hiked up dramatically compared to earlier tiers and there's no decent way for you to progress past 480 without getting yourself involved in the tangled interplay of dailies, overpriced crafted epics and a successful pug raid if you're lucky. It's killing us. But it's ok. You'll get a great birds eye view of the collapse from up there.

  16. #396
    Coins have been very good to me. If Elder Charms didn't exist, I would say they wouldn't feel mandatory. But since the coins can be used for heroic raiding, yeah I do need them and I can never outgrow them outside of building a huge stockpile.

    The rep gear didn't feel mandatory at all, it's just the coins that did. My alt Mage has raided some normal modes for 5 weeks and hasn't needed to buy anything from VP. He got it all from raiding normals or LFR.

    If the 'championing' system was active at the beginning of MoP, I think a lot of players would feel like they weren't mandatory, but it wouldn't convince everyone. Definitely not me because of the coin aspect.

  17. #397
    Oh and for anyone who's curious, according to WoW Progress 774,000 toons killed normal Arthas. About half a million toons killed normal versions of Nef, Rags and Deathwing. The count so far is about 294,000 for Will and 145,290 for Sha.

    People really want to argue that not only this trend should continue but we should exacerbate it by putting additional barriers in place to raiding? Please, for the love of Azeroth, we need help with getting more people into raiding not more penance for dare suggesting Cata had a shitty amount of content.

  18. #398
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    You have proven to be either extremely lucky in wow or a liar.
    Remember, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
    Anecdotal evidence like "it takes months to get the gear!" isn't anecdotal all of the sudden?

    I am not going by my own luck, I am using the drop-chance of items..
    My own luck was rather bad. It took me way longer than the average person to collect my gear, I have had weeks without a drop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    Did you actually read the text? Because it has nothing to do with what I said.

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliladon View Post
    Oh and for anyone who's curious, according to WoW Progress 774,000 toons killed normal Arthas. About half a million toons killed normal versions of Nef, Rags and Deathwing. The count so far is about 294,000 for Will and 145,290 for Sha.
    One question about that figure: does that count include people going back there for Shadowmourne runs and all that, which still goes on today, or was it snapshotted during current content? Old content is so easy to pug people are going back all the time.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    One question about that figure: does that count include people going back there for Shadowmourne runs and all that, which still goes on today, or was it snapshotted during current content? Old content is so easy to pug people are going back all the time.
    It's guild runs as far as I know so those numbers of toons at all levels are probably slightly conservative. Either way the supply of raiders available from and for organized raiding appears to be rapidly drying up. We really need help.

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