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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by MrExcelion View Post
    One question about that figure: does that count include people going back there for Shadowmourne runs and all that, which still goes on today, or was it snapshotted during current content? Old content is so easy to pug people are going back all the time.
    You can get snapshots of wowprogress.com through archive.org. Enter the url http://www.wowprogress.com/ at that web page, then click up and down the chronological list of snapshots.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  2. #402
    I loved reading this thread... Blizz comes out and finally admits that the dailies felt forced and so they are changing them and you still have genius's here arguing that they arent forced and you didnt need to do them.

    Define irony...

  3. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    I noticed that they are finally acknowledging that dailies are too forced.

    "Mists of Pandaria set out to provide lots of things for you to do, but daily quests ended up feeling more mandatory than they wanted. The Patch 5.2 daily quests feel less mandatory."

    Off main page.

    It's sad and frustrating though because it took months of people bitching and complaining and they just defended it by saying 'you don't have to do dailies'. Yes you did because it's the only way to spend the damn JP/VP. Unreal. They didn't lose me personally, but I know a lot of players just in my guild/on my server who quit over the bullshit reputation grinds.
    It'll still be mandatory, dailies were implemented back in TBC so people have an alternate fun way to get the gold they want instead of farming elite mobs(Tyr's Hand back in vanilla).

    But now Blizzard have ran out of ideas and instead of adding fun stuffs in the world, they make you do the dailies(close to a 100 of them now in MoP) so you can never say there's not enough content.

    And since Blizzard crew spent time to create these dailies they don't want their 'effort' gone to waste so the more they have to force you to do them, that's by making VP items available from Revered onwards, and the most irritating thing is that most people only want trinket from VP, but they only allow you to do that faction with Trinkets when you have reached Exalted with other factions.

    Oh the irony.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliladon View Post
    Refute what points? That if I show people enough forums posts about how stupid they are for burning themselves out they'll take it easy and come back? Everyone's already made the points to how and why we should fix it but I can recite the 5 best ones once again if you like. But still we have to contend with people like you victim blaming and white knighting for no other reason than apparently Blizzard can do no wrong. It wouldn't affect you or anybody else in the slightest if they left everything in place and gave people decent alternatives to the busywork shitfest they call non-raid character progression. At this point it only reads as spite.

    Our 25 is only surviving because it's the top alliance 25 on the server and able to attract applicants. The rest of the 25s have stalled or split to 10s. Our applicants these days tend to come in chunks of 3 or 4 from guilds who have completely collapsed. People cite sub numbers and handwave away problems but our raids live and die by what Blizzard does and right now we're barely treading water. Already some last raid nights of the week we just don't form even though we're recruiting like crazy. Death of our raid group almost appears to be an inevitability at this point and instead of recognition of the situation as untenable we have to endure this same shitfight over and over again simply because a segment of the community has to feel morally superior in some way or fashion.

    Raiding isn't as accessible, the requirements in skill and gear for seemingly moderate success has been hiked up dramatically compared to earlier tiers and there's no decent way for you to progress past 480 without getting yourself involved in the tangled interplay of dailies, overpriced crafted epics and a successful pug raid if you're lucky. It's killing us. But it's ok. You'll get a great birds eye view of the collapse from up there.
    Here we go, a bunch of hypotheticals and berating me for a point that I'm not even making. Being brutally honest doesn't mean I have some sort of superiority complex, despite your desperate attempts to paint me so. There are absolutely improvements to be made, but these grandiose claims suggesting that dailies are the reason for the game is supposedly collapsing and hemorrhaging players is pathetic.

    As I said, I'm not advocating the old system, and my post has nothing to do with bringing players back. Changing valor gains and gear access isn't going to magically return players who left. Players get bored and leave; it's an eight year-old game, not a surprise. Guilds have decayed, divided, reformed, and repeated since 2004. You can't tell me that your server is dying because of dailies.

    My post simply points out the ridiculousness of players crying and wailing that they sky is falling because they have to actually play the fucking game. It's unrealistic to design the game around people who binge-play, and I have no sympathy for those who do burn themselves out because they want everything immediately.

    If you have no intention to run dailies, valor can be spent upgrading HoF / Terrace gear to bolster their iLvl. Some 491 pieces will help to boost to 480 for ToT. It's perfectly feasible to prepare yourself for LFR ToT without a single daily if you're THAT adverse to it.

    Having to allocate twenty minutes every once in a while to do some quests is such a trivially small problem to have, but it's still a "problem" with an accessible solution.

    At the end of the day, the decision has already been made. I'm ambivalent to it, I'm going to participate in the content because I actually enjoy playing the game. If it winds up being better for the game, fine, but you can't declare the game broken.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-03 at 09:00 PM.

  5. #405
    Bashkar's post is wrong on so many levels, it's not even worth commenting on.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Bashkar's post is wrong on so many levels, it's not even worth commenting on.
    I take solace in the fact that you have nothing to contribute. I've yet to have anyone tell me I'm wrong with anything beyond anecdotal evidence and opinions.

    Edit: Again, I'm being berated for a point I'm not making. I'm not suggesting that the current system is flawless, nor am I suggesting that players should be kept on a treadmill out of some misplaced sense of superiority (as some posters would have you believe).

    The root of my posts lies with the current system not being nearly as world-ending, game breaking, sky falling, and impossible to surmount as the lamenting posters on this forum would claim.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-03 at 08:30 PM.

  7. #407
    I think the thing people hate is that if they like to do LFR, but hate to do dailies, they're in a bit of a pickle. When you have to do things you don't want to do in order to do the things you DO want to do, you find yourself in a bit of a quandary. So yes. You don't HAVE to do dailies. Just bear in mind that if you don't, you probably won't be able to do the other things you did want to do unless you either bite the bullet and do them anyway, or get very. VERY patient each week hoping the RND gods bless you with more ilevel instead of being stingy. All the while seeing the valors you earned go to waste.

  8. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    I loved reading this thread... Blizz comes out and finally admits that the dailies felt forced and so they are changing them and you still have genius's here arguing that they arent forced and you didnt need to do them.

    Define irony...
    Compared to the genius who can't figure out the difference between 'forced' and 'felt forced'?

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Compared to the genius who can't figure out the difference between 'forced' and 'felt forced'?
    If your customers feel forced to do something then for all intents and purposes it is forced.

  10. #410
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    I'm not saying it's impossible to gear up without dailies, I'm saying it's a big pain in the ass to do so and requires luck and/or gold. Argue all you want, but Blizzard has looked at the data and made an official announcement which basically means the data says you're wrong. GG.
    No, what they said was that dailies "FELT" mandatory. Not that dailies WERE mandatory. In other words, what they admitted to is that too many people don't know how to use rational thought to determine that they aren't being forced with a gun to the back of their head to do Golden Lotus quests seven days a week.

    However, that being said, the new system is just fine. Dailies still give you Lesser Charms and mounts and stuff, while the raid gives you gear. At the second stage of the expansion, that seems like a good move.

    I mean, what's next? Pet battles will give Lesser Charms in 5.2. You gonna gripe about being how pet battles feel "mandatory"?

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Anecdotal evidence like "it takes months to get the gear!" isn't anecdotal all of the sudden?
    That's not evidence - that's statement. If it's backed up by anecdotal evidence then that statement is an anecdote.
    But it isn't. It can be calculated. And for people who play 2 hours a day it can take months <- this is the majority of wow players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I am not going by my own luck, I am using the drop-chance of items..
    So you are using bogus data. Unless you have dev database - you don't know drop rates. You have empirically calculated drop rates from wowhead. And the data is not clean. Not everyone has the client, way not everyone. So if 10 recorded kills gave item out of 100 recorded kills. Great 10% drop rate. NO! In fact there were 100000 unrecorded kills and 100 unrecorded items have dropped making the drop rate ~0.01%.
    Another point. You clearly do not know how probabilities work. Otherwise you wouldn't have used drop rates as basis of your argument.
    Just because it says 10% drop rate doesn't mean every 10th kill drops it. It also in no way means every 10th player has it.
    Item with drop rate of 10% may not drop even on 100th kill.
    Drop rates even out only on INFINITY kills.
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  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenixdown View Post
    No, what they said was that dailies "FELT" mandatory. Not that dailies WERE mandatory. In other words, what they admitted to is that too many people don't know how to use rational thought to determine that they aren't being forced with a gun to the back of their head to do Golden Lotus quests seven days a week.

    However, that being said, the new system is just fine. Dailies still give you Lesser Charms and mounts and stuff, while the raid gives you gear. At the second stage of the expansion, that seems like a good move.

    I mean, what's next? Pet battles will give Lesser Charms in 5.2. You gonna gripe about being how pet battles feel "mandatory"?
    The line is fairly thin though when " feeling " basically becomes " is " and I will say that while not all of them were mandatory, Golden Lotus certainly was because it unlocked so many things that were blocked by it ( crafting schematics and valor gear mostly ).

    Now with that said, after 5.1 things " felt " much better. The grind wasn't as bad, LFR gear from Hof and Terrace was close enough to the 489 Valor gear that it no longer felt like it was the best place to get upgrades. TBH afterwards the only issue the still remained is the Coins and they are making them available in several different ways so that helps.

    On my Shaman main up until 5.1 it definitely felt like the game was pushing you into doing them. I will say that on my Rogue, DK, and Warlock after 5.1 the game doesn't have nearly that same feeling. Yes they are still there and yes I hate the fact that I'm still forced to do Golden Lotus on my Lock just to get some crafting schematics, but at least its not nearly as bad.

    I will agree that you could still play the game and progress without doing them, but it certainly wasn't optimal and sure as heck made this altoholic not want to touch my alts. That's something that did change after the 5.1 adjustments.

  13. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    That's not evidence - that's statement. If it's backed up by anecdotal evidence then that statement is an anecdote.
    But it isn't. It can be calculated. And for people who play 2 hours a day it can take months <- this is the majority of wow players.
    That's 14 hours a week, enough to do all the LFR-raids and dungeons.

    So you are using bogus data. Unless you have dev database - you don't know drop rates. You have empirically calculated drop rates from wowhead. And the data is not clean. Not everyone has the client, way not everyone. So if 10 recorded kills gave item out of 100 recorded kills. Great 10% drop rate. NO! In fact there were 100000 unrecorded kills and 100 unrecorded items have dropped making the drop rate ~0.01%.
    Another point. You clearly do not know how probabilities work. Otherwise you wouldn't have used drop rates as basis of your argument.
    Just because it says 10% drop rate doesn't mean every 10th kill drops it. It also in no way means every 10th player has it.
    Item with drop rate of 10% may not drop even on 100th kill.
    Drop rates even out only on INFINITY kills.
    Yes, they may not drop on the 100th kill.
    But for the majority it will drop within 10 kills, that's what mathematicians like to call 'probability'.
    And in that probability we always have players who can't get a drop in 100 kills and we also have players who have 100 drops in those kills.

    PS. Drop rates even out enough on just a 1000 kills.
    Luckily we have a couple of million kills every week, so that means it evens out.

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Yes, they may not drop on the 100th kill.
    But for the majority it will drop within 10 kills, that's what mathematicians like to call 'probability'.
    And in that probability we always have players who can't get a drop in 100 kills and we also have players who have 100 drops in those kills.

    PS. Drop rates even out enough on just a 1000 kills.
    Luckily we have a couple of million kills every week, so that means it evens out.
    For the majority it will drop around 10 kills, not within 10 kills.
    And no, we don't always have players who don't get a drop in 100 kills, or players who get a drop every time, those two events are extremely unlikely to happen.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    The root of my posts lies with the current system not being nearly as world-ending, game breaking, sky falling, and impossible to surmount as the lamenting posters on this forum would claim.
    I know! It's so easy to get to 495 quickly! That's why we have leagues of well geared raiders beating down our door to apply and give us that push we need to get over the line for Spirit Kings H!

    Oh wait. That was just a nostalgic fantasy.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    I noticed that they are finally acknowledging that dailies are too forced.

    "Mists of Pandaria set out to provide lots of things for you to do, but daily quests ended up feeling more mandatory than they wanted. The Patch 5.2 daily quests feel less mandatory."

    Off main page.

    It's sad and frustrating though because it took months of people bitching and complaining and they just defended it by saying 'you don't have to do dailies'. Yes you did because it's the only way to spend the damn JP/VP. Unreal. They didn't lose me personally, but I know a lot of players just in my guild/on my server who quit over the bullshit reputation grinds.
    By the way they acknowledged this about 2 weeks after launch so way to keep up. Of course they know as well as anybody who actually uses their own brain rather than plugging into the mind hive of MMO-C forums that Dailies were not at all mandatory to maintain a competetive edge as skill > gear and gear = not tied to dailies anyway if you were competent enough to run heroic MSV after a week or two. But so many failers couldn't do that in 25 so they felt they had to use Valor to support them.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    I noticed that they are finally acknowledging that dailies are too forced.

    "Mists of Pandaria set out to provide lots of things for you to do, but daily quests ended up feeling more mandatory than they wanted. The Patch 5.2 daily quests feel less mandatory."

    Off main page.

    It's sad and frustrating though because it took months of people bitching and complaining and they just defended it by saying 'you don't have to do dailies'. Yes you did because it's the only way to spend the damn JP/VP. Unreal. They didn't lose me personally, but I know a lot of players just in my guild/on my server who quit over the bullshit reputation grinds.
    My broken alliance guild's leader actually quit the game completely due to this. Until the 90 days elapsed and someone else got control of the guild, the GMOTD read, "The golden lotus can go %@#$ itself".

    For me, well, I don't play my alts because of this. I have two level 90s now, an 89, an 88, and the rest are 85s. The 88 and 89 aren't hitting 90. The 85s aren't getting played. In Cata I really enjoyed going from alt to alt, running LFD for VP then getting my characters qualified for LFR, then getting them maxed in LFR gear.

    That ain't happening in MOP because I'm not about to run a bunch of dailies to get rep so I can unlock s'more dailies to get rep so I can spend my VP on gear needed just to qualify me to then finally go do the bits I want to go do.

  18. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    That's 14 hours a week, enough to do all the LFR-raids and dungeons.
    And get nowhere in the fucking game. Don't you get it? 14 hours a week where your reward is dictated yb rng means that is potentially a very wasted 14 hours of the game. Even people who play 14 hours want to progress and feel rewarded for their time invested. It's bullshit. It felt forced because it was very much forced if you wanted to get anywhere and not have to be subject to the roll of the dice every week. As someone said earlier designing this game around pathological users who abuse the crap out of it and play non stop is bad. It's not what people asked for when they said they were bored and wanted more to do. It's a confluence of the hardcore minority of no lifers with nothing but time on their hands and the people who were bored waiting for them to release content at 8 months of DS. The majority didn't want more grind, they just wanted more patches. More raids, more dungeons, more tiers, more gear, etc etc etc Not more dailies or grind for that matter. Who the hell asked for more dailies? Who asked to go slow? I'm all for alternative paths for people who don't like dungeons by all means but people who like dungeons got boned hard this expansion.

    I just can't believe this argument is still fucking going on. Like I sorta knew it would continue but man even the developers have come out and said yea it felt forced. BECAUSE IT WAS FORCED. And yet people still here arguing not so much, people still here arguing the dictionary definitions of forced. I mean even when they turn around and say we were wrong people still defend them. You should be mad at them for betraying your arguments people. No instead you carry on the fight when the king has left the field. It's madness.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-03 at 10:08 PM.

  19. #419
    Herald of the Titans Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Did you actually read the text? Because it has nothing to do with what I said.
    The link was just referred to the RNG part of your post. You said something with a 10% drop chance is expected to drop after 10 kills. This is false.
    Take Rivendare's Deathcharger as an example. It has around 1% drop chance, and following your logic, it should drop every 100 runs.

    However, failed attempts do NOT sum up every new try. It's not like you have 2% chance to find it the second time you kill Rivendare; it is, and always is, 1%.
    In fact you could run Stratholme 200 times and find it every single time, or you could run it 400 times and never see it drop, theorically speaking.
    Just like you could roll a dice 1000 times and never get a six.

    Obviously, something with 0%/100% chance to drop never/always drops. But as long as something's probabilities are between 1% and 99%, RNG is unpredictable.

    However, one thing that cannot happen is that the previous try has a somewhat beneficial effect on the next one.
    That's why i linked the Gambler's Fallacy, relating to your statement.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    That's 14 hours a week, enough to do all the LFR-raids and dungeons.
    No that's 2 hours per day. Also can't play on week-ends - family/girlfriend and other stuff you know. So it's 10 hours total.
    And you do not spend 2 hours from 0 to 240 minute playing the game. You will have to make a break, and you will be distracted by IRL stuff.
    Effectively it's 1.5 hours - 90 minutes. 7.5 hours per week.
    And no, you won't be able to do everything and you will not even reach VP cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Yes, they may not drop on the 100th kill.
    But for the majority it will drop within 10 kills, that's what mathematicians like to call 'probability'.
    No, probability guarantees none of such! 10% drop rate only guarantees that in HUGE AMOUNT of kills it will drop (HUGE AMOUNT / 10) items. The closer that HUGE AMOUNT to INFINITY - the closer it will be to "1 in 10".

    Now how many player raid in wow? Its surely not 10m, I guess it's less than 1m

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    PS. Drop rates even out enough on just a 1000 kills.
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Luckily we have a couple of million kills every week, so that means it evens out.
    No we haven't. Drop rates for one raid are unaffected by other raids' kills.
    Hell, they are even unaffected by old kills for the same group of people.
    Every time you kill a boss (without needed item drop) your chances to get the item you want AREN'T increasing.
    Every kill is independent event. That's why it takes INFINITY to even out AVERAGES. On average it will be every 10th. But it may be 1000000 kills in a row without a drop and then 1000000 kills in a row with a drop. Or it can be exactly every 10th. The thing you seem to be unaware of - all three (all cases, actually) cases have SAME PROBABILITY to happen. They are equally unlikely to happen.
    Every time you kill a boss that has 10% chance to drop your item - yo have 10% chance to get it.
    Different people will get different independent results. Situation where a million of kills doesn't drop said item is as unlikely as dropping million times - or as dropping every 10th kill.
    RNG is RNG - this phrase exists for a reason.
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