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  1. #441
    Warchief 1ns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Sad they "acknowledge" this because it isn't true. They aren't mandatory at all. You don't need to spend the VP or JP and there are ways to unlocking some factions rep item without doing dailies.
    De facto not true. You are pretty much forced to do so in order to progress eq tier.

  2. #442
    Like they've got they priorities screwed up. I don't understand what's wrong if people want instanced content and don't care about going out into the world? Why do they feel the need to prod us out into the open world? Furthermore why do they think RNG is such a good thing? I mean they've got this obsession with it like you wouldn't believe. Like instead of dictating what the game is and isn't about why not just a que from the players. If they liked running instance content then let them run instanced content for gear. If they like valor gear as an alternative path then let them have it. I just don't get it. This expansion feels like such a regression in so many ways. As someone who really has been around since vanilla it's kinda disconcerting to see them try and take the game back in time. It doesn't work like that.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-03 at 11:21 PM.

  3. #443
    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    Really sick of seeing this argument. The fact is, if you don't do dailies to unlock valor gear, you get gear locked and your character progression comes to a grinding halt.

    Let's take dungeons for example. The highest ilvl you can obtain off dungeons is 463. Then, you're left to grind LFR MSV for *months* (unless the rng gods just lay a golden brick on you) to reach 470 to queue for the remaining LFR raids.

    So, as a result, you're looking at grinding for PvP gear and/or spending 20-35k (sever prices may vary) for BoE pieces to fill in the slots you need as just acquiring the Sha boots and Klaxxi neck aren't going to cut it.

    Blizzard acknowledged this because the gear bottleneck must be an obvious eyesore from their overall player participation data.
    Haven't touched a single MoP daily on my new DK. Sitting at an average ilvl 478 and can still easily progress further, I haven't even spend VP on the items you unlock by just doing the quests you can do for certain factions while leveling. They aren't mandatory, but I can imagine if people want to gear up the fastest possible way they feel forced to do dailies.

  4. #444
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    This is where the discussion comes full circle. You're only forced if you're chasing a specific set of gear and refuse to run LFR or upgrade gear with valor.
    If I feel forced - I am forced. And no you can't go to LFR without VP items. It required 460 ilvl - you couldn't get that from heroics in any reasonable amount of time.
    Now you kinda can, but who cares about MSV LFR now in almost 5.2?
    In 5.2 LFR requires 486 ilvl afaik. You can't get that even from 5.0 LFR. You will have to buy old VP epics. After grinding Rep. Of 5.0 content. So even if you were lucky and didn't do any dailes and managed to farm LFR - even in full LFR gear of 483ilvl, you won't be able to run LFR in 5.2 - UNLESS you did dailies - or upgrade at-least 6 pieces to 491 before 5.2. That's 9000 VP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    You never see the terms "forced to raid" or "forced to engage in organized pvp" but these are the end goal of a gear based progression system. There are other ways to reach your threshold as a player, but rejecting them because 'you don't like it,' but want the gear anyway, defeats the purpose of the whole genre.
    Of course I see, a couple of days ago I was forced to organized PVP by PVE quest. You know that legendary one. And I definitely forced to run LFR for VP cap. And I don't need gear from there, I do heroic raiding right now. I need valor for upgrades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    Which resulted in a dead, completely vacant world, and a full Stormwind/Orgrimmar of afk players just waiting for their queue to pop/
    Nobody cares about "teh wrold" but Blizzard. NO BODY ELSE.
    Then people said they have nothing to do - they didn't mean - "we want to get out of cities" - they said "we want new content".
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    This is not a vacuum, there are other goals and objectives that need to be assessed. Something inevitably has to give. The goal was to get the world busy again, open up players to the rest of their server, cultivate world PvP, and add some length to a game that just six months ago had absolutely nothing going for it.
    Fuck the world - it's not busy, they failed. You can't force people to the world, you can make them want to go there, but not force. Dailies were forcing people into the world. They failed to do even that. People grinded thru them (while hating every competitor) and that's it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    I understand that some players are hurting. And again, my posts are being looked at from a hostile "tough shit" angle when that is not the intent. The point is... it's not that bad. As much as people loathe, lament, and cry out with disdain... it's not that bad. The game is not dying because of dailies, and sensationalizing the effects of having reputations makes it harder for me to sympathize with you.
    Nobody says the game is dying. In dire need for change? yes, dying? hardly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    The divide ultimately boils down to what people think valor gear is, what they're entitled to, and what they should have to do in order to get it. I get the frustration, but it's not that bad.
    It is that bad. There's plenty of content to do in the game (dailies) - but I'm sitting in the Pandarian faction city. They didn't solve the problem. They didn't gave more content. they gave more repetitive content. and gated it!
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-03-03 at 11:30 PM.
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  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    some players who don't seem to actually want to play the game.
    That's another thing to. This whole argument that theirs a ton of people who "don't want to play the game" is such baloney. No you were the guys who didn't play the game in cataclysm. You could have continued to play the game under any reward model it wouldn't have made a difference. Their was LOTS of crap for you to do in Cata, in fact if all they did in mists was add pet battles, lfr, challenge modes and most of the other crap without touching the reward model you could still keep playing the game. In fact I'm gonna go ahead and say every person who makes that argument probably doesn't have half the crap they could have done in this game. LIke you want the list of dailies available to you in cataclysm? Including old school ones? What happened you could have kept playing? It blows my mind that people actually use this argument. No the reality is that YOU WERE THE ONES who didn't want to keep playing and that forced us to play it your way in this expansion. Then you turn it around on us and say well you guys just don't want to play. No we were happy to play under the old reward model. You weren't. It's a trick worth of fox news. Projection of the highest order. If you yourself were so willing to play the game you would have played it under the cataclysm reward model to.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 11:31 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post

    Fuck the world - it's not busy, they failed. You can't force people to the world, you can make them want to go there, but not force. Dailies were forcing people into the world. They failed to do even that. People grinded thru them (while hating every competitor) and that's it.
    I might also add that dailies don't actually cure the problem with the world in world of warcraft. In fact for the most part I would argue that people going out into the world to run dailies are more or less treating it like instanced content. Ignoring allies, ignoring mobs they don't need, and resources they don't need, and just going to from A to B to get C done and then to turn in at D. They aren't by and large stopping to look around and take it slow or smell the roses. They just want it over with.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-03 at 11:33 PM.

  6. #446
    Scarab Lord Conscious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NSrm View Post
    De facto not true. You are pretty much forced to do so in order to progress eq tier.
    That seems to be where the line is being drawn now between Casual players and Raiders.

    If you want to be an effective raider you're doing these dailies, no questions asked.

    If you don't, you're a casual player. No shame in it, but it's just how it seems to be shaping out to be.
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  7. #447
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I might also add that dailies don't actually cure the problem with the world in world of warcraft. In fact for the most part I would argue that people going out into the world to run dailies are more or less treating it like instanced content. Ignoring allies, ignoring mobs they don't need, and resources they don't need, and just going to from A to B to get C done and then to turn in at D. They aren't by and large stopping to look around and take it slow or smell the roses. They just want it over with.
    Yep, and the irony in all this?
    There's a content to do in the world that people want to do - Pet Battles - takes you into the world to hunt for pets, it makes sense, doesn't feel forced and all that - perfect thing. But there's a catch. I don't have fucking TIME to get to it.
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  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by Conscious View Post
    That seems to be where the line is being drawn now between Casual players and Raiders.

    If you want to be an effective raider you're doing these dailies, no questions asked.

    If you don't, you're a casual player. No shame in it, but it's just how it seems to be shaping out to be.
    Even casual players like to feel rewarded for their time invested though. The people complaining about dailies fall in both categories I think.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 11:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Yep, and the irony in all this?
    There's a content to do in the world that people want to do - Pet Battles - takes you into the world to hunt for pets, it makes sense, doesn't feel forced and all that - perfect thing. But there's a catch. I don't have fucking TIME to get to it.
    See that's what I don't get. If you took the reward out of dailies and made the gear just accessible without rep and furthermore increased the valor cap would that be less for you to do? This whole fucking speel about how some of us dont' want to play the game is such BS. You'd still have pet battles to do, you'd still have challenge modes, lfr, lore stuff, archaeology, you fucking name it. In that sense mists is out the ass with content. No theirs still lots for you to do without the grind and fucking gates. The reality is that alot of that shit was in cataclysm to but nobody did it because of the reward model behind it. The reality is that people advocating for dailies with gear DON'T LIKE TO PLAY THE GAME otherwise they would have done the tonnes of shit in cataclysm and really found shit to do because I played religiously in cataclysm and still didn't do everything. No what they like is reward just like everybody else but their to high and mighty to admit it. They'd rather say well look heres a bunch of people who just don't want to play the game. The reality is that if those people liked playing this game then Blizzard wouldn't have had to put this shitty reward model in. They'd have found a plethora of things to do EVEN IF it wasn't attached to gear.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-03 at 11:49 PM.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Nobody complains about being forced to run pvp because gearing in PVP isn't succeptible to RNG. God I wish it was. Then you'd see complaints. Nobody is refusing to do either lfr or upgrade points but neither one is GUARANTEED TO RESULT IN NEW GEAR. In other words dailies are the only guarantee of reward in this game for PVE players.

    Every other way to reach your threshold as a player in the game is determined by RNG, either/or inaccessible by many. Forcing YES FORCING players to do dailies to overcome the developers obssesion with RNG is bad. If the alternatives were guaranteed like dailes you may have a point. Currently you don't and the developers have acknowledged it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 11:01 PM ----------



    It's not so much that we don't want to play the game, it's just we want better rewards. We don't want to have to grind, some of us can't afford the time but we still like to progress and keep up. In the end their design caters to those who have an enourmous amount of time and can go ahead and do all these things while leaving us in the dust. As you said yourself it's not a vacuum. Rewards exist for everybody and if it's to slow people are going to complain. Not because they don't want to play the game but because the experience isn't as rewarding for the time they can invest. I played WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more in cataclysm. Yea I had like 2 or 3 alts but who cares. Everytime I logged on I felt rewarded for my time and never felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. The only way to get anywhere and feel any tiny tiny portion of reward was doing dailies. Everything else was frustrating and a waste of time. That includes LFR.

    Even in services you tell the service person what you want and they comply if they can. Granted they do have a large player pool but for GC to say that is basically him dictating to the player base that they need us to comply with their expectations. It doesn't work like that. If GC paid me then potentially but we pay him. I understand the problem hes in but their attempts to engineer like that are disappointing. It hasn't brought raiding back by any means and hasn't stopped the sub loss.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 11:04 PM ----------



    That's untrue. Or at least that's a gross mischaricterization. It's like the whole forced debate again. The game would only technicallly be unplayable if you didn't meet the system requirements or couldn't pay your sub. Well if that's the criteria for good game design then were screwed. Is your argument defending dailies so low that instead of saying their good and amazing content the best you can come up with is "it's not that bad". Well as you said before theirs 10 million players. For some, apparently quite a few, it is that bad. It's okay though I have no problem with you doing dailies and going as slow as you want. Blizzard can cater to both groups. I see nothing that precludes you from doing dailies and taking it nice and slow and Blizzard giving me back tabards to farm my face off for rep and increase my valor gains in dungeons. You can keep going slow as much as you like. Then tell me you don't feel forced.
    My posts have been taken grossly out of context from the word "mandatory." My posts have stemmed from the notion that it's impossible to play this game without dailies. I have never once said this is the best system we're going to get. I have not defied room for improvement. Both sides of this argument are yelling at different sides of the same wall, so this will be my last post.

    Most of the concerns presented ultimately boil down to wanting more accessible gear. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    What's wrong is the approach, raised burning pitchforks and threatening to jump off cliffs if players don't get what they want. Hollow arguments that the game is dying (arguments we've seen every day since... ever), with simply anecdotal evidence. The game has been losing subs for three years, this is not a problem exclusive with the current system. I won't deny that some players felt that they were losing the race, but it's hard to take anyone seriously while they're championing it as the lead cause for the declining, and screaming THE GAME IS BROKEN! THE GAME IS BROKEN!.

    Once again, having concerns with players trying to catch up with the rest of the server is far more tied to Valor than anything else, and that has always been the case. Gating rewards behind reputation isn't nearly as big of a deal; players who are contingent upon those rewards are still tied to 1k Valor a week, and they can't catch up any faster than that. I've already demonstrated there's a 30 week timeframe in which to hit revered for all reputations. That point has barely just passed.

    This problem was only absent throughout Cataclysm where, upon a content patch, prior content became completely irrelevant. I stopped playing because I had nothing to do.

    Additionally, being 'forced' to grind reputation to cap via tabard within the first week is somehow better? You can find time to run dozens of dungeons per reputation, but can't provide for time to run twenty minutes worth of dailies? And you're still held back a valor limit; you're not catching up any faster. I really don't understand the solution here. They're welcome to implement it, I'm not here to reject any alternatives, but it solves absolutely none of the problems that exist. At the end of each week, I'll be just as far along to gearing up as you will.

    Some of us enjoy having people out in the world. Some of us like having an incentive to leave major cities, and not having to spend our entire playtime in the same damn dungeons. Unfortunately, we see a side effect of community feeling somehow obligated to comply with an allegedly "mandatory" part of the game.

    I have no reservations with expanding our options. I do have a problem with every chicken little on this forum. It's not nearly as big of a problem as the outcry would suggest, and that's what is frustrating.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    This problem was only absent throughout Cataclysm where, upon a content patch, prior content became completely irrelevant. I stopped playing because I had nothing to do.
    Really? You have every achievment? All your factions exalted? Collected all your pets? Maxed out all secondaries (including archaeology)? Pvp tittles? The list of potential shit you haven't done in warcraft is a mile wide I"m sure. What you mean to say is I ran out of reward which also probably isn't true unless you've done heroic raids but I've run out of accessible rewards which is really what it's all about. I've ran out of things to do is basically I've ran out of gear or progression I can aquire for my toon in a reasonable fashion. Well guess what. Without doing dailies I ran out of gear I could get in a reasonable fashion pretty quickly. So dailies become de facto the forced option. Let's be honest about that because the reality is if you really wanted to keep playing this game you would have NEVER run out of things to do. What you ran out of is rewards.

    I was never "forced" to grind reputation crap with tabards? You know why? It was just an additional reward to the activity I was doing anyway. You'll notice I also included valor gains (should also increase the cap) so that I am indeed much further along the cap then you who has "chosen" to go slow. Feel free to continue going slow and not feel forced at all...

    You may not think it's a big problem but that's okay because it doesn't affect you. It's quite common for people in the first world to not consciously consider 3rd world poverty a problem when it doesn't affect them. You don't think it's a big problem BECAUSE it doesn't bother you and furthemore from what I can tell you enjoy the system so I'm not surprised you don't think it's a big problem. For those it does effect it clearly is a big problem. In your case the solution is very simple. Don't argue with the chicken littles. You've already dismissed their concerns as exaggerated, so you can and should remain content in the certainty that it's really not a big deal.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 12:11 AM.

  11. #451
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Really? You have every achievment? All your factions exalted? Collected all your pets? Maxed out all secondaries (including archaeology)? Pvp tittles? The list of potential shit you haven't done in warcraft is a mile wide I"m sure. What you mean to say is I ran out of reward which also probably isn't true unless you've done heroic raids but I've run out of accessible rewards. Let's be honest about that because the reality is if you really wanted to keep playing this game you would have NEVER run out of things to do. What you ran out of is rewards.

    I was never "forced" to grind reputation crap with tabards? You know why? It was just an additional reward to the activity I was doing anyway. You'll notice I also included valor gains (should also increase the cap) so that I am indeed much further along the cap then you who has "chosen" to go slow.

    You may not think it's a big problem but that's okay because it doesn't affect you. It's quite common for people in the first world to not consciously consider 3rd world poverty a problem when it doesn't affect them. You don't think it's a problem BECAUSE it doesn't bother you so I'm not surprised you don't think it's a big problem. For those it does effect it clearly is a big problem. In your case the solution is very simple. Don't argue with the chicken littles. You've already dismissed their concerns as exaggerated, so you can and should remain content in the certainty that it's really not a big deal.
    This ENTIRE discussion is because of gear. This is an RPG, and gear is the very staple of the genre.

    I've participated in the rest of that content, alongside running dailies, doing dungeons, running LFR, and jumping into raids. I haven't completed every achievement because I don't have the time, nor interest, to keep up with current content and maintain my achievement count. I can't realistically participate in every possible aspect of the game. And that's okay.

    Answer me this question: Would you bother playing this game if there was no gear? This entire argument is surrounded by the fact that you want better gear, with less effort. You can run at me with hypothetical situations and by attacking my character / experience, but it doesn't change anything. Gear is the foundation of this game. If it wasn't we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    And LOL REALLY? 3rd world analogy? It's a God. Damn. Videogame. Come at me with something more compelling than "you clearly don't understand" and "well have you done EVERYTHING?"

    You're looking for solutions to problems that have existed eternally, and blaming dailies for it. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-04 at 12:16 AM.

  12. #452
    [QUOTE=Bashkar;20407652]
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post

    This ENTIRE discussion is because of gear. This is an RPG, and gear is the very staple of the genre.

    I've participated in the rest of that content, alongside running dailies, doing dungeons, running LFR, and jumping into raids. I haven't completed every achievement because I don't have the time, nor interest, to keep up with current content and maintain my achievement count. I can't realistically participate in every possible aspect of the game. And that's okay.

    Answer me this question: Would you bother playing this game if there was no gear? This entire argument is surrounded by the fact that you want better gear, with less effort. You can run at me with hypothetical situations and by attacking my character / experience, but it doesn't change anything.

    Well then you really ought to stop saying that theirs a bunch of players who don't want to play the game. No YOU didn't want to play the game. You had all sorts of things to do but without progression behind it you chose not to. CHOSE. Unless your gonna tell me that's really a non-choice? So what happens is because you CHOSE to be bored (when you could have very well gone as slow as you liked or done any number of other things in the world of warcraft but again CHOSE not to) I have little choice in that the developers catered to you and your CHOICE. I don't expect you to realistically participate in everything but when your bored I would expect that you would find something to do in the game you love and do expect you to not come onto forums and tell others that they just don't want to play the game when the reality is you very much don't want to either unless your given some massive gates in your way to slow your apparent inability to control yourself.

    Really what I see is alot of excuses about why your bored and no self awareness to say I'm the problem. In fact if I went back in time and we had this conversation about cataclysm I would probably argue to you it's not that bad. I'm not sure you'd accept it then so I'm not sure why I should accept it now?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 12:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    And LOL REALLY? 3rd world analogy? It's a God. Damn. Videogame. Come at me with something more compelling than "you clearly don't understand" and "well have you done EVERYTHING?"

    You're looking for solutions to problems that have existed eternally, and blaming dailies for it. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it.
    The analogy was to illustrate the mind set of a particular group of players. I'm sure you understood what was the root of it, no need to get into the particulars. Needless to say you don't consider it a big issue because you like the current system and it doesn't affect you so your bias is a little skewed. That's fine. I'm looking for a solution to the daily rep grind fiasco, a problem you don't think is that big a deal but it was a big enough deal for the developers to acknowledge it. What you buy or not buy is meaningless. If they gave me a tabard tmmrw and unlimited valor gain you could still go as slow as you like and put your own cap on it. CHOICE. Right? Unless your gonnat ell me you'd feel forced to don the tabard and dungeon grind...

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post


    Well then you really ought to stop saying that theirs a bunch of players who don't want to play the game. No YOU didn't want to play the game. You had all sorts of things to do but without progression behind it you chose not to. CHOSE. Unless your gonna tell me that's really a non-choice? So what happens is because you CHOSE to be bored (when you could have very well gone as slow as you liked or done any number of other things in the world of warcraft but again CHOSE not to) I have little choice in that the developers catered to you and your CHOICE. I don't expect you to realistically participate in everything but when your bored I do expect you to not come onto forums and tell others that they just don't want to play the game when the reality is you very much don't want to either unless your given some massive gates in your way to slow your apparent inability to control yourself.
    You've ripped context out of the discussion. My enjoyment isn't contingent on gated content, my enjoyment is contingent on actually having something to do with tangible character progression. Most players would agree... see: the entire thread. Having other options to do in off-time is fine, and doesn't take away from the rest of the game, but gear is golden. Gear makes things "mandatory," and gear makes this game run.

    The goal here is to get as much gear with as little effort as possible by adding multiple rewards to the same medium. That's the request: to effectively remove an entire portion of the game by combining it with another so we don't actually have to play it. Twisting my words doesn't change that.

    Having both isn't an option, because then it'd be "mandatory" to do both in order to be optimal, making this a zero sum exercise.

    We lost all sense of gear progression through cataclysm, and it was dull and boring for many of us. Just as many people likely fled the game because they couldn't stand running Zul'Aman for the two hundredth time.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-04 at 12:28 AM.

  14. #454
    [QUOTE=Bashkar;20407744]
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post


    Having both isn't an option, because then it'd be "mandatory" to do both in order to be optimal, making this a zero sum exercise.
    Why is that exactly? Why can't you chose to go slowly? Why does the design paradigm that you favor have to be foisted upon all of us? You can still do your dailies as much as you like as slow as you like unless of course your admitting you'd feel forced into dungeon grinding... if so then you don't have a leg to stand on. nothing in this game is forced including dailies or it is potentially. You can do as little or as much of the game as is possible? Why does the bottom have to be catered to instead of the top? or vica versa? Why not just simple say heres a tabard, throw it on and then do whatever you like to get rep? If having both would be "mandatory" then dailies currently are mandatory and forced. You can't have it your way and eat it to. If dailies aren't "forced" then they could give me unlimited tabards and increase my rep gain and cap (specifically ONLY in dungeons) and it wouldn't be forced.

    You lost all sense of gear progression in cataclysm because YOU can't control yourself. It's not clear to me we got a sense of gear progression back, or if that's even a worthy goal but alright feel free to imagine yourself up as much progression as you like. Go as slow as you like. Buy as little or as much valor gear as you like. All of that is REAL choice. Putting overtly compelling reward behind one aspect of the game is in reality a non choice.

    Dailies were already adding multiple rewards to the same medium effectively getting as much gear as you could with as little effort. Hell that's the problem to much reward in one medium made it to compelling. Even if that weren't true guess what's getting rep back in 5.2? Back to the raids where it belongs. Baby steps back to tabards.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 12:43 AM.

  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post

    Why is that exactly? Why can't you chose to go slowly? Why does the design paradigm that you favor have to be foisted upon all of us? You can still do your dailies as much as you like as slow as you like unless of course your admitting you'd feel forced into dungeon grinding... if so then you don't have a leg to stand on. nothing in this game is forced including dailies or it is potentially. You can do as little or as much of the game as is possible? Why does the bottom have to be catered to instead of the top? or vica versa? Why not just simple say heres a tabard, throw it on and then do whatever you like to get rep?
    I'm going to go through this again, abridged version.

    There are about 9000 Valor worth of rewards between just the Klaxxi and Golden Lotus.

    It takes Nine days to get Klaxxi to hit revered. Fourteen? I believe for Golden Lotus. 23 days for ~9000 Valor. You have 4000 valor by the end of that time period. You have five weeks before the rest of those rewards matter.

    You can go as fast, or as slow, as you want. Grinding everything out in a single day doesn't change anything, which is where I lose all faith in your suggestion. Mathematically it makes no sense, and represents itself as nothing more than laziness and entitlement. Why do you have to have all the reputations immediately? Why is it such a big deal to allocate twenty minutes of your day to doing a few quests?

    You lost all sense of gear progression in cataclysm because YOU can't control yourself. It's not clear to me we got a sense of gear progression back, or if that's even a worthy goal but alright feel free to imagine yourself up as much progression as you like. Go as slow as you like. Buy as little or as much valor gear as you like. All of that is REAL choice. Putting overtly compelling reward behind one aspect of the game is in reality a non choice.
    And where did I imply that? I paced myself like I always do, because I don't have time to spend several hours each day on content. Somehow through my horrible existence of working full time, I manage. I did enough dungeons to keep myself valor capped each week, championed the pertinent tabards, ran a few dailies, raided, etc. I didn't need everything right away. The time comes, though, where passively acquiring rewards results in an absence of content. Instead of weaving in daily quests and running around the world into my playtime, I ran Zul'Gurub/Zul'Aman yet again.

    I'm becoming wary of my posts being subject to a point I'm not suggesting. I'm not adverse to other options, let me drill that into your head for the fifth time. The new additions in 5.2 are welcomed, they'll help me with future alts. I just don't understand the uproar, and the desire for something that actually takes away from the game
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-04 at 12:48 AM.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    I'm going to go through this again, abridged version.

    There are about 9000 Valor worth of rewards between just the Klaxxi and Golden Lotus.

    It takes Nine days to get Klaxxi to hit revered. Fourteen? I believe for Golden Lotus. 23 days for ~9000 Valor. You have 4000 valor by the end of that time period. You have five weeks before the rest of those rewards matter.

    You can go as fast, or as slow, as you want. Grinding everything out in a single day doesn't change anything, which is where I lose all faith in your suggestion. Mathematically it makes no sense, and represents itself as nothing more than laziness and entitlement.



    And where did I imply that? I paced myself like I always do, because I don't have time to spend several hours each day on content. Somehow through my horrible existence of working full time, I manage. I did enough dungeons to keep myself valor capped each week, championed the pertinent tabards, ran a few dailies, raided, etc. I didn't need everything right away. The time comes, though, where passively acquiring rewards results in an absence of content. Instead of weaving in daily quests and running around the world into my playtime, I ran Zul'Gurub/Zul'Aman yet again.

    I'm becoming wary of my posts being subject to a point I'm not suggesting. I'm not adverse to other options, let me drill that into your head for the fifth time. I just don't understand the uproar over such a trivial issue.
    Because it's obviously not trivial to others. You may consider it trivial but the fact is that it is very much FORCING players to do content they don't want to do. You also keep glossing over the fact that in the hypothetical scenario I outline I also include increased valor gain and cap for those running dungeons. Under those circumstances would you feel forced to do dungeons? and not your precious dailies? But you could chose to go slow. Why isn't that a real choice? Why is the NON CHOICE of dailies considered a valid one but the real choice of doing what you like for rewards across the board not? Like let's say the reward you wanted out of daily quests was also tied to running dungeons. Would you then feel forced to run dungeons?

    I can't go as slow as I want because I can't go ZERO. Understand? If I want to do ZERO dailies but I still want the activities I like to do to reward me with GEAR equal to what dailies offer. I also can't go at 100 because well you can only daily once a day and if I've got saturday off that's all i can do once a day. Dungeons were far better for this and also allowed for in the middle to. That was REAL choice mind you but none of you could exercise it as such.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 12:51 AM.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Because it's obviously not trivial to others. You may consider it trivial but the fact is that it is very much FORCING players to do content they don't want to do. You also keep glossing over the fact that in the hypothetical scenario I outline I also include increased valor gain and cap for those running dungeons. Under those circumstances would you feel forced to do dungeons? and not your precious dailies? Like let's say the reward you wanted out of daily quests was also tied to running dungeons. Would you then feel forced to run dungeons?
    You're running dungeons anyways, so that scenario really doesn't add anything to the discussion. By definition we're forced to run dungeons, and we're forced to raid, in order to remain competitive. This is already a reality, so adding further rewards to an already thriving part of the game doesn't change player behaviour.

    Don't patronize me on my stance. They are hardly "precious," but they do add something to the game. There are always other options available. Refusing to do other parts of the game is your prerogative, and it's perfectly feasible to progress your character doing so. It's ultimately going to be more rewarding if you use all tools available to you, though.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-04 at 12:55 AM.

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    You're running dungeons anyways, so that scenario really doesn't add anything to the discussion. By definition, we're forced to run dungeons, and we're forced to raid, in order to remain competitive.
    First of all no I'm not anymore. They are virtually worthless. I was running them in cataclysm far past their usefulness in terms of gear drops for the rep. Furthermore no your actually NOT forced to run dungeons. You could take it slow, run every daily quest and gear up via dailies/crafting/pvp until you got to lfr level. You are not forced to do a damn thing. Or you are very much forced to do things and dailies are also very much forced because they offer an avenue of progression for raiders to aid in clearing content with and for non raiders as a reliable source of new gear. Really in both instances it's to combat atrocious RNG that Blizzard has a hard on for.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 12:56 AM.

  19. #459
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    First of all no I'm not anymore. They are virtually worthless. I was running them in cataclysm far past their usefulness in terms of gear drops for the rep. Furthermore no your actually NOT forced to run dungeons. You could take it slow, run every daily quest and gear up via dailies/crafting/pvp until you got to lfr level. You are not forced to do a damn thing. Or you are very much forced to do things and dailies are also very much forced because they offer an avenue of progression for raiders to aid in clearing content with and for non raiders as a reliable source of new gear.
    So we're not forced to do anything from your perspective, but you are forced from mine? Switching out dungeons with dailies makes PvP and crafting options inviable to progression?

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    So we're not forced to do anything from your perspective, but we are forced from mine? Switching out dungeons with dailies makes those other two options inviable to progression?
    Well No I fee very much forced to do dailies (I made the crafted gear that got me to lfr within reason and the only thing more painful than dailies is a pvp grind IMO) but you get all sorts of folks arguing (and maybe not you) that dailies are totally optional. these people get hung up on the literal definitions of the word forced and optional and can't see the forest for the trees.

    Let's get our bearings in this discussion. If Blizzard tmmrw said we're bringing back the cataclysm model. Tabards, fast valor in dungeons, higher valor cap and made this all exclusive to dungeons (which is some thing was sorta tried in pvp and people complained about being forced to do conquest battles for taht extra bit on the cap) but also said for you guys who like the slower pace of things you can have your dailies, lower valor cap and slower gains in general. Would you feel forced to do one over the other?
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 01:12 AM.

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