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  1. #461
    That's a volatile question because you'd be making one a clear advantage over the other. Dungeons easily become the path of least resistance, minimize the amount of work and time required to to get what I need. Theoretically, you could suggest yes.

    However, The flaw with your scenario is that it outlines dailies as slow and inefficient, and comparing it against rapid valor gain/cap, rep gain, and the inherent gear reward from dungeons. Since every player already runs dungeons as part of their progression, dungeons don't become forced, it makes dailies obsolete. You'd inevitably receive all of your rewards without thinking about it. If I can get gear, unlock rewards, AND gain valor I need to use them, why would I bother doing anything outside of the normal? I'd just sit in the major city, run my dungeons and log out. Onto the next alt. It's why I wound up with 9 Lv85 characters through Cataclysm, all of them reasonably well geared in LFR.

    At that point, they might as well just tie rewards to the dungeons themselves.

    All things being equal though? Assuming the same valor cap? I'd say no, because I'd have no interest in spending a week grinding my self to the digital bone unlocking a bunch of rewards that I can't access yet. This is where I'm having a problem understanding. I have no problem with it, I just don't understand. The most vocal concerns about the current system aren't going to be solved by anything outside of a gear vendor in the Vale.

    There are enough rewards available outside of reputations to keep players progressing. At 483iLvl from HoF/Terrace, with +8 from valor upgrades, craftable gear, and supplemented PvP gear to inflate your numbers, it's easy to hit the 480 requirement for ToT for 5.2.

    Considering the above, it's hard to understand how players feel "forced" into one specific aspect of the game in order to remain viable.

    The sunsong ranch, and daily dungeon rep additions are very welcomed, so long as they don't become more efficient than the rest of the game. Reverting back to Cataclysm level Tabards would be counterproductive IMO
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-04 at 01:32 AM.

  2. #462
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    That's a volatile question because you'd be making one a clear advantage over the other. Dungeons easily become the path of least resistance, minimize the amount of work and time required to to get what I need. Theoretically, you could suggest yes.

    However, The flaw with your scenario is that it outlines dailies as slow and inefficient, and comparing it against rapid valor gain/cap, rep gain, and the inherent gear reward from dungeons. Since every player already runs dungeons as part of their progression, dungeons don't become forced, it makes dailies obsolete. You'd inevitably receive all of your rewards without thinking about it. If I can get gear, unlock rewards, AND gain valor I need to use them, why would I bother doing anything else?

    At that point, they might as well just tie rewards to the dungeons themselves.

    All things being equal though? Assuming the same valor cap? I'd say no, because I'd have no interest in spending a week grinding my self to the digital bone unlocking a bunch of rewards that I can't access yet. This is where I'm having a problem understanding. I have no problem with it, I just don't understand.

    There are enough rewards available outside of reputations to keep players progressing. At 483iLvl from HoF/Terrace, with +8 from valor upgrades, craftable gear, and supplemented PvP gear to inflate your numbers, it's just hard ot understand how players feel "forced"
    But see dungeons technically aren't required in the slightest either. It's hard to see how players feel forced to run them (especially when dailies give you EVERYTHING aside from JP) but their it is. You can by all means chose to do dailies over dungeons but really what your choosing is to go slower. Which is in reality a non choice. Just as not doing dailies is also a non choice. Like when people were bitching about hard dungeons in cataclysm, the response really should have been they were totally optional because guess what they were.

    The rewards available outside of reputations are generally either to slow, not good enough, not reliable enough or even more painful to get than dailies. I'd rather not deal with the pvp grind cause loosing bgs non stop is less fun than doing dailies. 483 ilvl stuff i sall RNG which isn't really an alternative to gear that you KNOW you can get without rolling a dice, craftable gear is fine but you exhaust that opton pretty fast. In reality upgrading your gear is really it and that system is going out the window come the next patch. Upgrading your gear was never as satisfying as getting a new piece though. We are talking about reward here and not just numbers.

    I get that you don't see it as a problem but I would suggest to you that's because you enjoy the slower pace and because you enjoy dailies. If the shoe were on the other foot so to speak you'd see why it's a big problem. I mean I don't think balance issues in pvp are a big problem and yet clearly people who pvp feel that way and rightly so. I mean I didn't think cataclysm lacking grind was a big problem or the singular lack of daily quests with progression reward behind them was a big problem either but obviously you did. And because you did the developers had to foist your desired play style on the rest of us when many of us had our fill just right in cataclysm.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 01:42 AM.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    But see dungeons technically aren't required in the slightest either. It's hard to see how players feel forced to run them but their it is.
    Well, the top gear available through regular quest progression is 437?

    What's the parameter behind "forced?" The goal, it seems, is to raid. Specifically, get ready for the 480 requirement. Getting from 437 to 460 without a dungeon would require you take the same measures as you would disregarding dailies to jump up your iLvl.

    Crafted and PvP gear used to inflate your iLvL. Darkmoon trinkets (a pair inflate your iLvL despite not being able to wear both), Three 473 crafted epics, three more of the raid pieces at 496, add some world epics. Hunt down one of the Klaxxi 450 world drop weapons (an archaeology weapon is viable as well), supplement with crafted 450 PvP gear, etc.

    At that point, you've already made dailies and dungeons pointless. Replace the 450 schtuff with LFR gear, boost it with valor upgrades, and you're good to go. It can be expensive, but completely feasible. Money's easy to make nowadays anyways, even without dailies. The gear doesn't necessarily have to be good, just of a higher level. Go cheap.

    I understand the want for more reliable gear, but you want better reliable gear with no derivation in your playstyle. The request is to make an already viable and thriving section of the game much more rewarding. To the point where other sections of the game become pointless. I just don't understand why, especially considering that long-term, it solves none of the prevalent issues.

    I don't do dailies solely out of enjoyment, otherwise I would've continued after hitting exalted with each reputation (which I did two at a time, with several days of absence from the game). I've done the shieldwall dailies on my alts for the 496 trinkets/rings. Four days, 20m per day (including the story quests) with the commendation brings me to revered. I've done Sunsong as well to help farm Motes for crafted gear. I certainly enjoyed doing them moreso than grinding dungeons eternally, though.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-04 at 01:57 AM.

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    Well, the top gear available through regular quest progression is 437?

    What's the parameter behind "forced?" The goal, it seems, is to raid. Getting from 437 to 460 without a dungeon would require you take the same measures as you would disregarding dailies to jump up your iLvl. Crafted and PvP gear used to inflate your iLvL. Darkmoon trinkets (a pair inflate your iLvL despite not being able to wear both), Four 473 crafted epics, hunt down one of the Klaxxi 450 world drop weapons supplement with 450 PvP gear, etc. It's perfectly doable, expensive, but doable just to be able to jump into LFR.

    I understand the want for more reliable gear, but you want better reliable gear with no derivation in your playstyle. The request is to make an already viable, and thriving section of the game, much more rewarding. To the point where other sections of the game become pointless. I just don't understand why.

    No the top gear available through questing is daily quest gear.

    Dungeons are not viable or thriving. That's a crock. After roughly two days of playing mists I was done with dungeons. Even if it were true theirs nothing that says the other sections of the game are pointless because all of a sudden dungeons got more rewards. What your saying is basically for you to be able to play the game the way you enjoy it the rest of us have to put up with it. I'm telling you that's not the case. You can still run your dailies and be slow as shit and call it "obsolete" all you like but that doesn't change the fact you could still do it with dungeons giving more rewards.

    Like every solution you listed their is deeply flawed. In fact I did most of them and exhausted the potential supply of reward within a week or two leaving me with basically lfr/sha every week or suck it up and do the dailies. None of what you listed took that long either and I basically did it in a day.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 01:57 AM.

  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    No the top gear available through questing is daily quest gear
    Don't twist the concept. Zone quest gear caps at 437, with a few higher pieces as blue rewards.

    Dungeons are not viable or thriving. That's a crock. After roughly two days of playing mists I was done with dungeons. Even if it were true theirs nothing that says the other sections of the game are pointless because all of a sudden dungeons got more rewards. What your saying is basically for you to be able to play the game the way you enjoy it the rest of us have to put up with it. I'm telling you that's not the case. You can still run your dailies and be slow as shit and call it "obsolete" all you like but that doesn't change the fact you could still do it with dungeons giving more rewards.
    Explain how you're keeping up with Valor, then. Do you have LFR access?

    Mathematically,
    496*4 for craftable epics and trinkets
    463 for a crafted weapon
    450*9 for an assortment of crafted blue/PvP gear for the remaining spots.
    6973/14 is a 464 iLvl, more than adequate for LFR.

    You can't tell me you've exhausted all your options and were left with nowhere to turn but dailies. It only takes four pieces of gear to break into HoF/Terrace.

    4*496
    1*463
    5*450
    4*473
    -------
    6589/14=470.64

    Any gained valor could've been used to boost your existing epics / crafted gear to lessen that four item curve.

    Replace those remaining blues with LFR epics at minimum of 473 over the course of a few weeks, replace your boots with the Sha quest reward, you get to 478. Spend valor on three ilvl upgrades, bringing them up to 479, and you can break through into 480 character iLevel. That completely ignores 483 gear from HoF/Terrace.

    That's without a single dungeon, or daily for that matter. Don't tell me your hands are tied. It's annoying, but doable. Still contingent on RNG, but valor gear wouldn't get you to that threshold on it's own anyways. You're still subject to the game's rolls.

    Again, adding other reputation options is fine. Suggesting that the game is broken without them, is not.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-04 at 02:26 AM.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    Don't twist the concept. Zone quest gear caps at 437, with a few higher pieces as blue rewards.



    Explain how you're keeping up with Valor, then. Do you have LFR access?

    Mathematically,
    496*4 for craftable epics and trinkets
    463 for a crafted weapon
    450*9 for an assortment of crafted blue gear for the remaining spots.
    6973/14 is a 464 iLvl, more than adequate for LFR. You can't tell me you've exhausted all your options and were left with nowhere to do but dailies.

    Replace those nine blues with LFR epics at minimum of 473 over the course of a few weeks, replace your boots with the Sha rep reward, you get to 478. Spend valor on three ilvl upgrades to 479, you can break through into 480.

    I'm not twisting anything. Zone gear is all you need to start running dailies. Dailies themselves are all the rewads you need in one package. They make dungeons unnecessary. Dungeons are "obsolete"

    As for keeping up with valor I'm not. Or wasn't rather. I had LFR access but even that wasn't enough. Valor grinding in this expansion is almost as attrocious as doing dailies. And if your going to tell me I should be doing dungeons for the points then I'm going to laugh at you. Earning points in dungeons is stupid when you can't spend the fucking points anyway or couldn't at the start of the expansion. Double gating rep is dumb. Having to earn the privilege to spend the points I already spent time earning is atrocious.

    I have exhausted all other options that were reasonable and was just left with LFR/SHA. I made the darkmoon trinket but ended up selling it because I unsubbed.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 02:29 AM.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    Don't twist the concept. Zone quest gear caps at 437, with a few higher pieces as blue rewards.



    Explain how you're keeping up with Valor, then. Do you have LFR access?

    Mathematically,
    496*4 for craftable epics and trinkets
    463 for a crafted weapon
    450*9 for an assortment of crafted blue/PvP gear for the remaining spots.
    6973/14 is a 464 iLvl, more than adequate for LFR.

    You can't tell me you've exhausted all your options and were left with nowhere to do but dailies. It only takes four pieces of gear to break into HoF/Terrace.

    4*496
    1*463
    5*450
    4*473
    -------
    6589/14=470.64

    Any gained valor could've been used to boost your existing epics / crafted gear to lessen that four item curve.

    Replace those nine blues with LFR epics at minimum of 473 over the course of a few weeks, replace your boots with the Sha rep reward, you get to 478. Spend valor on three ilvl upgrades to 479, you can break through into 480. That completely ignores 483 gear from HoF/Terrace.

    That's without a single dungeon, or daily for that matter. Don't tell me your hands are tied. It's annoying, but doable.
    A few weeks? Ha! I've gotten ONE thing from LFR in a matter of 5 weeks on my mage. Add in the other 5 from my Hunter and I've gotten NOTHING.

    I had to buy a few epics and upgrade a few blues before I can *just barely* under 470. That's right! My mage is under 470.

    LFR is not a reliable way to get gear. It's nice, but you can't hope for even one piece of gear every week.

    And don't tell me to upgrade my blues as a viable way to get my gear up. It's a shit ton of heroic runs just to even begin seeing a difference.

    I HAVE to do heroics if I want to see any actual progress in my ilvl going up.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I'm not twisting anything. Zone gear is all you need to start running dailies. Dailies themselves are all the rewads you need in one package. They make dungeons unnecessary. Dungeons are "obsolete"

    As for keeping up with valor I'm not. Or wasn't rather. I had LFR access but even that wasn't enough. Valor grinding in this expansion is almost as attrocious as doing dailies. And if your going to tell me I should be doing dungeons for the points then I'm going to laugh at you. Earning points in dungeons is stupid when you can't spend the fucking points anyway or couldn't at the start of the expansion. Double gating rep is dumb. Having to earn the privilege to spend the points I already spent time earning is atrocious.
    This is where it breaks down. The demand for better, faster, easier valor rewards means absolutely nothing if you're not maximizing your valor gains. 450 Valor per week just from doing the raids, excluding dungeons, grants you a 4 ilvl upgrade every two weeks.

    You want to grind reputations, through dungeons that you dislike, for rewards that you can't afford? Would that REALLY bring you back to the game? Really?

    All I see here is that you want more rewards, more valor, and more reputation, for nothing. Fine, you want what you want, perhaps you'll get it, but it doesn't make the rest of the game broken. Giving us all of the rewards from a single source is bad for the longevity of the game IMHO.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-04 at 02:48 AM.

  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    This is where it breaks down. The demand for better, faster, easier valor rewards means absolutely nothing if you're not maximizing your valor gains. 450 Valor per week just from doing the raids, excluding dungeons, gets you a valor reward once every five weeks (four if you're grabbing jewellery). You want to grind reputations, through dungeons that you dislike, for rewards that you can't afford?

    All I see here is that you want more rewards, more valor, and more reputation, for nothing. Fine, you want what you want, perhaps you'll get it, but it doesn't make the rest of the game broken.
    Not for nothing. For doing activities that I want to do. I want the reward they had in cataclysm. For me it very much makes the rest of the game broken. As I keep repeating myself I want the valor cap increased and the rate of gain increased. I want my time, as limited as it is to be rewarded better than it currently is. A valor reward once every 5 weeks doesn't cut it and that's assuming I cap every week which I didn't actually. I don't understand why your trying to deflect the issue here. Guess what just because valor gains are slow DOESN'T MEAN THE CURRENT REP SYSTEM IS GOOD EITHER. The two are not exclusive in the slightest and really the return of a tabard system should go hand in hand with an increase in valor gain. The game is very much broken if you don't get any reward out of it. The game is very much broken if your time invested results in not enough reward to keep you happy and playing. The current system is very much broken if it forces you to do an activity you would NEVER TOUCH in the first place and reduces your enjoyment. The current system does all of the above and is broken as shit. Now it isn't to you because you like it and that's fine but don't pretend that has to apply to the rest of us. I mean you would probably argue that the reward model for cataclysm was broken but the reality was that for many of us it was just right.

    All I see is that you want to keep this game style because you like it and anything else offered will ruin your fun. You insist that if they went back to the cataclysm reward model for dungeons that would make dailies obsolete so the rest of us have to be stuck with this crap to cater to you and a handful of your spiritual brothers and sisters. Fine that's what you want and you've got it in this expansion, but it doesn't mean the rest of us have to like it and that the rest of us have to go gentle into that good night.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 02:53 AM.

  10. #470
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Not for nothing. For doing activities that I want to do. I want the reward they had in cataclysm. For me it very much makes the rest of the game broken. As I keep repeating myself I want the valor cap increased and the rate of gain increased. I want my time, as limited as it is to be rewarded better than it currently is. A valor reward once every 5 weeks doesn't cut it and that's assuming I cap every week which I didn't actually. I don't understand why your trying to deflect the issue here. Guess what just because valor gains are slow DOESN'T MEAN THE CURRENT REP SYSTEM IS GOOD EITHER. The two are not exclusive in the slightest and really the return of a tabard system should go hand in hand with an increase in valor gain.
    There are three sources of valor.
    Raids
    Dungeons
    Dailies.

    What you're requesting is that valor rewards (both points and gear) from dailies be rolled into dungeon runs, and we leave dailies where they are. For balance, they'd have to offer 463 gear from dailies, where we can assign which reputation those dailies attribute to, and accelerate their valor gain to match the time investment. Otherwise dungeons, that are already run by players to hit their cap, make the rest of the game obsolete.

    I could continue to run dailies, rejecting the dungeon additions, but why would I? If I'm getting double rewarded for doing something I'll be doing anyways, why would I spend time on dailies? Once I hit my valor cap for the week I'd turn elsewhere, seeing as the extra reputation gains beyond that point add nothing for me long term. I could focus more on PvP, build up an alt, do something else with my playtime. It opens up time to do something else, but it doesn't help my gear problem.

    You keep enshrouding me with this notion that I've got some sort of hard-on for these quests, which distorts my posts immensely. I'm ambivalent about the progression avenues available to us, I've stated that a half-dozen times. The valor acceleration is something I can get behind, so long as it's realistic.

    Again, I'm not for dailies, I'm just against the whining coming out of many posters. The added benefit of having people out in the world is something that I appreciate and enjoy. I like having an incentive to jump into the world, but give me a clearly better alternative and I (like most players) wouldn't.

    It's been demonstrated in my earlier post that you don't have to do anything. It's faster and more efficient to open all progression avenues, but not mandatory. And that's where this discussion is rooted.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-04 at 03:08 AM.

  11. #471
    The problem was not really the reps. The root cause is the competition to be in good raid teams, which drives players to get gear as fast as they can. It's an arms race in the most literal sense.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    There are three sources of valor.
    Raids
    Dungeons
    Dailies.

    What you're requesting is that valor rewards (both points and gear) from dailies be rolled into dungeon runs, and we leave dailies where they are. For balance, they'd have to offer 463 gear from dailies, where we can assign which reputation those dailies attribute to, and accelerate their valor gain to match the time investment. Otherwise dungeons, that are already run by players to hit their cap, make the rest of the game obsolete.

    I could continue to run dailies, rejecting the dungeon additions, but why would I? If I'm getting double rewarded for doing something I'll be doing anyways, why would I spend time on dailies? Once I hit my valor cap for the week I'd turn elsewhere, seeing as the extra reputation gains beyond that point add nothing for me long term. I could focus more on PvP, build up an alt, do something else with my playtime. It opens up time to do something else, but it doesn't help my gear problem.

    You keep enshrouding me with this notion that I've got some sort of hard-on for these quests, which distorts my posts immensely. I'm ambivalent about the progression avenues available to us, I've stated that a half-dozen times. The valor acceleration is something I can get behind, so long as it's realistic.

    Again, I'm not for dailies, I'm just against the whining coming out of many posters. The added benefit of having people out in the world is something that I appreciate and enjoy. I like having an incentive to jump into the world, but give me a clearly better alternative and I (like most players) wouldn't.

    It's been demonstrated in my earlier post that you don't have to do anything. It's faster and more efficient to open all progression avenues, but not mandatory. And that's where this discussion is rooted.

    It's not necessary to run dungeons. It's faster and more efficient but it's not necessary. You can easily get all the gear you need to get to lfr just from running dailies that players already run when to hit valor cap. I see no reason to run dungeons at all really. Why would I do anything but dailies really? They contain every reward including valor. That's your argument from the other perspective. Dailies make all other pve content outside of raids obsolete. This is why few FEW players run scenarios. They aren't relevant in terms of gear. Why should I bother with them? Dailies give me everything I need. Dailies are the new dungeons of cataclysm. One stop shop for reward.

    You can still very much go into the world and dungeons can have better rewards. That would be REAL choice. Not what you have now which is just basically forced choice. In fact if it really wasn't forced choice, vis vi rewards compelling you to get out there then nobody would do it. Just like nobody runs dungeons past their potential for gear. 460 or whatever. The valor rewards aren't enough to keep people doing them especially when rep blocks that anyway and you can cap from doing lfr and dailies.

    Heres the REAL root of all of this.


    The added benefit of having people out in the world is something that I appreciate and enjoy
    Why can't this be accomplished without dailies? Or heavy incentiviziation? You recognize that they incentivize it to get people into the world but you don't recognize that this compulsion is the root of what makes the dailies very forced. See you and Blizzard can't have it both ways. You can't make the dailies compelling by giving them gear then scratch your heads and wonder why people feel so compelled to do them.

    The solution is and was very simple:

    Remove the rep requirement on the gear
    Increase the valor gains and cap
    Give charms a chance to drop off dungeon bosses

    Your dailies will still give you massive rewards. More rewards than they've ever had in the game really. You'd still get charms, valor (I'm all for increased valor gains on dailies as well), gold, tabards, mounts, recipes, you name it. In fact give the more optional crap. Pets, xmog gear, you name it. Just less that is progression oriented. You can keep the valor and charms though. Gotta keep something right. That would provide real choice. You'd still have incentive to do dailies just not an overwhelming incentive to do them. That would of course defeat the purpose of why they were implemented in the first place though. FORCING players out into the world.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 04:09 AM.

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Sad they "acknowledge" this because it isn't true. They aren't mandatory at all. You don't need to spend the VP or JP and there are ways to unlocking some factions rep item without doing dailies.
    you fail to "acknowledge" the psychology of the wow player, and so did blizz. Now they understand it...

    took them long enough. I personally am getting tired of preaching their double-edged sword mistake.

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The problem was not really the reps. The root cause is the competition to be in good raid teams, which drives players to get gear as fast as they can. It's an arms race in the most literal sense.
    The % of players this "race" has an impact on is laughably small. According to blizzard, most players never even step foot in normal raids.

    OT: No matter how much it hurts the feelings of the folks who chose the plainly incorrect position of "dailies are fine, blizz knows what they're doing!", obviously the numbers proved otherwise. It doesn't matter if you felt dailies were purely optional, others felt they had to do them in order to maximize their characters, which at the end of the day is what an RPG is all about.

  15. #475
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    BLABLABLA
    I just cutted that crap. Wanna know why?
    Because I am not going to discuss math with people who obviously haven't touched that subject after kindergarten.

    So pick up a freaking book about chance and probability and then return to this thread.
    Because seriously.. :')
    It dropping on the 10th try has the same probability as it not dropping for a million kills? Are you for real?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I just can't believe this argument is still fucking going on. Like I sorta knew it would continue but man even the developers have come out and said yea it felt forced. BECAUSE IT WAS FORCED. And yet people still here arguing not so much, people still here arguing the dictionary definitions of forced. I mean even when they turn around and say we were wrong people still defend them. You should be mad at them for betraying your arguments people. No instead you carry on the fight when the king has left the field. It's madness.
    No, it felt forced because people are stupid.. not because it was forced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    The link was just referred to the RNG part of your post. You said something with a 10% drop chance is expected to drop after 10 kills. This is false.
    No, that's true.
    However, one thing that cannot happen is that the previous try has a somewhat beneficial effect on the next one.
    That's why i linked the Gambler's Fallacy, relating to your statement.
    That's not what I said.
    10 times 10% chance isn't a 100% guarantee that you will get it.
    But simple chance-calculations tell us that the majority of the people will have it within those 10 tries.

  16. #476
    Scarab Lord ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seefer View Post
    No the dumb masses proved that Blizzard can't put challenge into their game anymore or optional content because the dumb masses want everything now so they can complain about lack of things to do and how Blizzard sucks because they aren't giving new content fast enough.
    There's a difference between 'challenge' and 'boring as all hell'. I've spent very little time playing MoP, so I cannot speak specifically to those dailies, but I eagerly spent hours upon hours back in BC and vanilla working on attunement questlines and completing stuff like the Dungeon Set armors and AQ questlines. Cataclysm dailies, by contrast, rapidly became obnoxious.

    Another big difference is that with the old grinds, even the grindiest ones like Timbermaw or Wintersaber Trainers, you could spend time on it however you pleased. With dailies, Blizzard is effectively telling you that they have pre-measured your fun for optimal fun allocation and that you will be penalized if you do not log on daily to complete your prescribed dose of fun.

  17. #477
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I just cutted that crap. Wanna know why?
    Because I am not going to discuss math with people who obviously haven't touched that subject after kindergarten.

    So pick up a freaking book about chance and probability and then return to this thread.

    Because seriously.. :')
    It dropping on the 10th try has the same probability as it not dropping for a million kills? Are you for real?
    The sheer irony of your post is so stunning...
    Yes, it dropping on the 10th kill is as unlikely as it not dropping for million kills.
    Random, dude, do you speak it?
    Every time you kill a boss you have the SAME probability of getting the item you want. Just because you killed it million times doesn't increase chances for it to drop on million+1 kill. It just does not. It will be the same. Whatever it is, say 1%. Every time you kill a boss, you roll a d100 against 100. You need to roll 100 to get the item. The likeliness for you to roll 100 on first roll is the same as likeliness to roll 100 on 2nd, 3rd, ... 100, ..., 1000000 roll.

    P.S.
    There are ~1m raiders. that's no more than 100k 10man raids.
    Let's assume that they kill a boss at the same time. That's 100k kills at once.
    Boss has 10 items on his loot table and for the sake of easy mathematics drops just 1 item out of 10.

    Do you know how many different drop patterns (which raid got what) there are?

    it's 10 in power of 100000, that is a number with million zeroes. And though even that number isn't even close to be in vicinity of infinity - situation where none of the kills drop the desired item is as likely as any other, even million times million kills in a row.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-03-04 at 07:35 AM.
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  18. #478
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    This is where it breaks down. The demand for better, faster, easier valor rewards means absolutely nothing if you're not maximizing your valor gains. 450 Valor per week just from doing the raids, excluding dungeons, grants you a 4 ilvl upgrade every two weeks.

    You want to grind reputations, through dungeons that you dislike, for rewards that you can't afford? Would that REALLY bring you back to the game? Really?

    All I see here is that you want more rewards, more valor, and more reputation, for nothing. Fine, you want what you want, perhaps you'll get it, but it doesn't make the rest of the game broken. Giving us all of the rewards from a single source is bad for the longevity of the game IMHO.
    Fact of the matter is people will come up with any twisted way they can to try and make it sound like dailies are MANDATORY when they aren't even after you point out the other ways they can get gear it's just "not an option" or "not good enough"

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 02:34 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    There's a difference between 'challenge' and 'boring as all hell'. I've spent very little time playing MoP, so I cannot speak specifically to those dailies, but I eagerly spent hours upon hours back in BC and vanilla working on attunement questlines and completing stuff like the Dungeon Set armors and AQ questlines. Cataclysm dailies, by contrast, rapidly became obnoxious.

    Another big difference is that with the old grinds, even the grindiest ones like Timbermaw or Wintersaber Trainers, you could spend time on it however you pleased. With dailies, Blizzard is effectively telling you that they have pre-measured your fun for optimal fun allocation and that you will be penalized if you do not log on daily to complete your prescribed dose of fun.

    WRONG on 3 counts!

    #1 I never said dailies were challenging I was talking about heroics, perhaps I should have elaborated on that a bit more

    #2 Even if you did every daily every single day you wouldn't be able to buy all of the pieces because of the valor cap, you could skip days or even a week and still be up to par

    #3 VP gear is not NEEDED to raid

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    The sheer irony of your post is so stunning...
    Yes, it dropping on the 10th kill is as unlikely as it not dropping for million kills.
    Random, dude, do you speak it?
    Every time you kill a boss you have the SAME probability of getting the item you want. Just because you killed it million times doesn't increase chances for it to drop on million+1 kill. It just does not. It will be the same. Whatever it is, say 1%. Every time you kill a boss, you roll a d100 against 100. You need to roll 100 to get the item. The likeliness for you to roll 100 on first roll is the same as likeliness to roll 100 on 2nd, 3rd, ... 100, ..., 1000000 roll.

    P.S.
    There are ~1m raiders. that's no more than 100k 10man raids.
    Let's assume that they kill a boss at the same time. That's 100k kills at once.
    Boss has 10 items on his loot table and for the sake of easy mathematics drops just 1 item out of 10.

    Do you know how many different drop patterns (which raid got what) there are?

    it's 10 in power of 100000, that is a number with million zeroes. Even that number isn't even close to be in vicinity of infinity.
    But there's more to it than that.

    Given a 10% drop rate, the chance that you haven't gotten it after 10 kills is lower than not getting it after 5 kills.

  20. #480
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    But there's more to it than that.

    Given a 10% drop rate, the chance that you haven't gotten it after 10 kills is lower than not getting it after 5 kills.
    No it isn't, the chance is the same. in those 10 kills the item could drop at any kill, and likeliness of each case is the same. Be it 1st kill or 10th or EVERY kill.
    There are 2 (one item on loot table, can drop nothing) in power of 10 (1024) drop patterns possible. Each is as likely as another.
    ...
    0000000000 < doesn't mean it will drop on 11 kill
    ...
    0000010000 < same likeliness as all zeroes.
    ...
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-03-04 at 07:50 AM.
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