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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    I'm pretty sure Blizzard, at some point, stated that normal encounters weren't tuned for valor gear.
    Please. Can you clear MSV in 463 blues alone (ignoring all the drops in MSV)? No! So MSV was tuned with a mix of 463/489 gear - VP gear. Or full LFR gear.
    Heart Of Fear - go try it in 463 blues. It needs 489 gear either from MSV or VP vendors. Or full 483 LFR gear.
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  2. #522
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    If the chance is always the same (10%), how come you say the majority of people getting it increases within 10 tries?
    Because of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

    I am not saying that the chance is higher at try 10.
    I am saying that the chance they got the item is higher if you calculate the totals from every try of those 10.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    If the chance is always the same (10%), how come you say the majority of people getting it increases within 10 tries?
    Because the chance of you not getting it (on each kill) is 90%, and because "The probability of multiple independent events ALL occurring is the product of their individual probabilities."

    This means that in 2 kills you will have 0.9*0.9 = 0.81 (81%) chance of not getting it at all.
    And in 10 kills you will have 0.9^10 = 0.35 (35%) chance of not getting it at all.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 03:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Please. Can you clear MSV in 463 blues alone (ignoring all the drops in MSV)? No! So MSV was tuned with a mix of 463/489 gear - VP gear. Or full LFR gear.
    Heart Of Fear - go try it in 463 blues. It needs 489 gear either from MSV or VP vendors. Or full 483 LFR gear.
    Back in vanilla we called this progression. It was why we continued to clear MC after we started on BWL.
    Today you have valor gear as an alternative to bad drop rates.

  4. #524
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Back in vanilla we called this progression. It was why we continued to clear MC after we started on BWL.
    Today you have valor gear as an alternative to bad drop rates.
    It's not just that.
    You cannot clear MSV in 463-blues, he is right.
    But you can clear MSV with the gear that MSV drops.

    And one of the issues is that the VP-gear was locked behind dailies.
    People, me among them, dislikes this system and that's why they changed it in 5.2

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    It's not just that.
    You cannot clear MSV in 463-blues, he is right.
    But you can clear MSV with the gear that MSV drops.
    Which was my point.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Back in vanilla we called this progression. It was why we continued to clear MC after we started on BWL.
    Today you have valor gear as an alternative to bad drop rates.
    Please, back in Vanila I had green pieces while raiding in AQ40. There were no meaningful progression, just different gear, since they had % instead of ratings back then - they couldn't make really better gear. Just a bit more base stats that's all. And the ring with 2% hit was BiS for Agi users til the coming of ratings though it dropped from Ragnaros.
    And half MC you had to use green FR gear.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 06:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Which was my point.
    Your point doesn't include bad drops in MSV, which are easily replaced by VP gear.
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  7. #527
    Pit Lord velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    I noticed that they are finally acknowledging that dailies are too forced.
    That's not true, they said they agreed that it FELT forced, not that it actually was. Because it simply wasn't.... there were plenty of ways to gear up, it would just take longer, but still it was/is possible.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No it is not. My wants are not needs. Therefore not mandatory.

    I can raid without it, but I will have difficulties in progress area. Because I (and everybody else who ignore VP gear) will be hindering the entire raid.
    We won't be hitting DPS checks.
    Our tanks will be dying a lot due to lack of good gear on tanks AND on healers.
    We are not Paragon.

    Only in academic sense.
    In reality, if it feels mandatory - it is mandatory. I already paid my sub. So if to enjoy the rest of the game I have to do awful dailies - these dailies are mandatory as there's no refund and I want to play the rest of the game.
    Can you be more full of crap? Yes, no normal discussion coming from me when you post this nonsense.

    Instead of arguing dailies are mandatory which they obviously are not you could just say you don't like the system.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-03-04 at 03:04 PM.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    You just gave a few different examples that do not go with your argument. You say if you don't do the dailies you get progression locked. But you can farm LFR for gear (doesn't take months), buy gear off the AH or make the epics yourself, some heroics drop epics, Sha drops and Klaxxi neck do help no matter what you think. These are all gear you can get without doing a single daily.
    There's one simple detail you forgot about though. The things he mentioned rely on RNG, and RNG can be a cruel merciless bitch.

  10. #530
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    Dailies are not forced but due to my insane bad luck with gearing as a tank - 1 item from MSV normal so far, 1 from MSV LFR, still running with an ilvl 450 crafted belt and legs since they refuse to drop in heroics and pumping money into crafted and BOE epics I have no other option. So yes I could just not do dailies and continue relying on luck which hasnt worked thus far, or I can grind dailies for a guaranteed bit of gear.

    Not 'forced' but it feels like they are 'forced' since it seems thats my only viable option of getting guaranteed loot.

    I always find this an odd subject because getting loot from dungeons and raids is entirely RNG based and dailies give you that option to get loot without relying on luck. RNG kicks me in the teeth so I've only got the dailies to fall back on.
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  11. #531
    Pit Lord Asmodias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    First of all from a story telling stand point I could care less. The npcs don't actually PRESENT you with the reward, you go and buy it from the vendor. The most you get from a story telling perspective is some npc telling you that hey you have earned the honor for such and such. So from a story telling perspective nothing has really changed. You still get the same story.

    From an RP perspective the solution is really simple. As I already suggested just have the gear scale so that at exalted you get a higher ilvl. This way you still allow people choice and a sense of progress with that particular faction.

    Frankly the story in the game is piss poor anyway and story concerns should NEVER over write game play issues.
    Your mention of "gear scaling" must have been lost in one of your other posts as you make absolutely no mention of it in what I quoted. All you said in my initial quoted text was "I want the top level offerings from the beginning" equating to "Give me what I want without me having to really do anything to prove I deserve it". I would imagine that you also realize... if you made the gear scale based on the rep you have earned with the faction... You are doing the exact same thing you are now... It's just that you are buying 1 item instead of possibly a couple. You still have to do the dailies (or use other methods to obtain the rep... see: Hozen Peace Pipe, or the 5.2 Sunsong Ranch work orders). Your idea isn't changing anything.

    Let me elaborate. As I said, the game is an evolving story. As much as you don't believe it... the rep factions are part of that story. Blizzard wants you to realize that you need to progress with each faction's story to get the best gear they have to offer. Sure, you may not get much of the story until the very end, but if you think about it (as a whole) in terms of a story, it makes sense. As an example, I have items for sale. I keep some of them safely tucked away for whatever reason I may have. Could be that these items are highly sought after because they could be copied by other groups, some of the items could be controversial... really, the reason doesn't matter. Now, you come to me and are interested in obtaining the items I have... I need you to show me you aren't going to screw me over, thus I make you work a little harder to get the top of the line items I have. I have to know I can trust you to not destroy my business. That's what the rep factions are doing with the player.

    Of course, based on your reply, you don't care about the story of the game. You simply want the path of least resistance, but you want ALL of the benefits therein.

    Finally, I would like to touch on the last line of your reply to me.

    "Frankly the story in the game is piss poor anyway and story concerns should NEVER over write game play issues." As for the story being piss poor... that's a personal opinion where we differ. You have every right to feel the way you do, though it begs the question... why do you torture yourself and play through something you call "piss poor"? And this idea of story concerns never overwriting game play issues. To be honest, I am not sure where you are getting this kind of stuff. To me, it boils down to "The game is making me work harder than I choose to... but I still want all of the rewards that people who put in the time end up getting."

    Aside from you, Leonard McCoy, and back to the question at hand. Has anyone considered that Blizzard admitted this to shut the complainers up? Is it possible that Blizzard is changing things to prove to the community that the set up for 5.1 wasn't really that bad? I will be interested in seeing what people think when 5.2 comes out. Wonder how many threads like this will crop up... At which point, those of us who didn't think the dailies were a problem can sit back and giggle at all of the same people complaining about the 5.2 version. Many good times will be had.


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  12. #532
    Herald of the Titans Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Because of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution

    I am not saying that the chance is higher at try 10.
    I am saying that the chance they got the item is higher if you calculate the totals from every try of those 10.
    Oh, i see now.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    If the chance is always the same (10%), how come you say the majority of people getting it increases within 10 tries?
    Half the people will get it within log(.5)/log(.9) < 7 tries.
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  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Half the people will get it within log(.5)/log(.9) < 7 tries.
    Likely to get it. It's not guaranteed.
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  15. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Sad they "acknowledge" this because it isn't true. They aren't mandatory at all. You don't need to spend the VP or JP and there are ways to unlocking some factions rep item without doing dailies.
    They admitted they "felt" mandatory. Yes, if you used simple arithmetic and common sense, they weren't mandatory at all. But Blizzard doesn't design games for an audience comprised entirely of people capable of using simple arithmetic and common sense. They design it for all of us, including the rather large and very vocal portion of the playerbase who are too dumb to understand this and just go by what the game "feels" like.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 03:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Please. Can you clear MSV in 463 blues alone (ignoring all the drops in MSV)? No!
    Yes, you can, if people can play halfway decently.

    So MSV was tuned with a mix of 463/489 gear - VP gear. Or full LFR gear.
    If you factor in herpaderps needing to overgear it, then yes, MSV was tuned for a mix of blues and epics. Epics that drop in the instance. You know, the way raids are supposed to work.

    I bought a grand total of two valor items before 5.1, shoulders and ring. My DPS increased maybe 1% because of them.
    When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What am I supposed to do with these?! Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by kojinshugi View Post
    Yes, you can, if people can play halfway decently.



    If you factor in herpaderps needing to overgear it, then yes, MSV was tuned for a mix of blues and epics. Epics that drop in the instance. You know, the way raids are supposed to work.

    I bought a grand total of two valor items before 5.1, shoulders and ring. My DPS increased maybe 1% because of them.

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  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    Sad they "acknowledge" this because it isn't true. They aren't mandatory at all. You don't need to spend the VP or JP and there are ways to unlocking some factions rep item without doing dailies.
    You have a currency. That currency is used to purchase gear upgrades that don't happen to drop for you. If you want to use that currency you HAVE to do dailies.

    How the hell isn't that mandatory?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 04:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post

    Olivia Wilde thinks you are awesome!
    Looks like she's yawning.

    She wants the D.
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
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  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Asmodias View Post
    Your mention of "gear scaling" must have been lost in one of your other posts as you make absolutely no mention of it in what I quoted. All you said in my initial quoted text was "I want the top level offerings from the beginning" equating to "Give me what I want without me having to really do anything to prove I deserve it". I would imagine that you also realize... if you made the gear scale based on the rep you have earned with the faction... You are doing the exact same thing you are now... It's just that you are buying 1 item instead of possibly a couple. You still have to do the dailies (or use other methods to obtain the rep... see: Hozen Peace Pipe, or the 5.2 Sunsong Ranch work orders). Your idea isn't changing anything.

    Let me elaborate. As I said, the game is an evolving story. As much as you don't believe it... the rep factions are part of that story. Blizzard wants you to realize that you need to progress with each faction's story to get the best gear they have to offer. Sure, you may not get much of the story until the very end, but if you think about it (as a whole) in terms of a story, it makes sense. As an example, I have items for sale. I keep some of them safely tucked away for whatever reason I may have. Could be that these items are highly sought after because they could be copied by other groups, some of the items could be controversial... really, the reason doesn't matter. Now, you come to me and are interested in obtaining the items I have... I need you to show me you aren't going to screw me over, thus I make you work a little harder to get the top of the line items I have. I have to know I can trust you to not destroy my business. That's what the rep factions are doing with the player.

    Of course, based on your reply, you don't care about the story of the game. You simply want the path of least resistance, but you want ALL of the benefits therein.

    Finally, I would like to touch on the last line of your reply to me.

    "Frankly the story in the game is piss poor anyway and story concerns should NEVER over write game play issues." As for the story being piss poor... that's a personal opinion where we differ. You have every right to feel the way you do, though it begs the question... why do you torture yourself and play through something you call "piss poor"? And this idea of story concerns never overwriting game play issues. To be honest, I am not sure where you are getting this kind of stuff. To me, it boils down to "The game is making me work harder than I choose to... but I still want all of the rewards that people who put in the time end up getting."

    Aside from you, Leonard McCoy, and back to the question at hand. Has anyone considered that Blizzard admitted this to shut the complainers up? Is it possible that Blizzard is changing things to prove to the community that the set up for 5.1 wasn't really that bad? I will be interested in seeing what people think when 5.2 comes out. Wonder how many threads like this will crop up... At which point, those of us who didn't think the dailies were a problem can sit back and giggle at all of the same people complaining about the 5.2 version. Many good times will be had.
    Right now go back and catch up with the rest of the discussion. Or don't bother commenting. Really what's the sense in posting if your just gonna come in half way and pick something apart you don't like without reading the rest of the follow up? It isn't the same thing by any large margin. It lets YOU the user decide what piece you get available to you to compensate for what other reward you might be lucky or unlucky to get. It also doesn't interfere with your story concern the slightest because your still getting the best ilvl piece at each rep lvl.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 04:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post

    [/COLOR]

    Looks like she's yawning.

    She wants the D.

    The Daily quest?
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 04:26 PM.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Likely to get it. It's not guaranteed.
    No, but that's not what was being claimed.

    Anyway, we can compute the number of tries so that the probability that every member of the population will have gotten it is at least .5. For N = 10 million, this would be about 160.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-03-04 at 05:27 PM.
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  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Let me quote: "Whilst you are content to put up with whatever Blizzard throws at you"


    But you did say that: "Whilst you are content to put up with whatever Blizzard throws at you"


    Why is it idiotic?
    If something is really forced, then discussion is impossible.
    "People force us to do raids for PVE-achievements!" < Can't discuss that.
    "People force us to do dailies." < That's wrong, you just 'FEEL' forced. That's something we can discuss.

    If people feel forced to do dailies which aren't intended to be forced upon the players, you can always talk to them and try to understand why they feel like that.
    And with that information you can decide about the direction of the game.


    Is it possible to obtain 480-gear without dailies?
    Yes, it is. Therefore it is proven that dailies are not forced.
    That makes it a fact.
    I make no mention of your dislike for dailies. I seem to have hit a nerve but ultimately you are content to put whatever they throw at you even though you do not like this content here you are, not only, still paying Blizzard but defending them for it.

    It is idiotic because from a customer point of view is does not matter the result is the same either way people are going to stop paying and by arguing the customer is wrong all you are going to do is ensure that they will not return or buy your future products. But hey it's better to right and poor.

    Again you are answering something that is not there. Where did I write that you cannot obtain gear through other means? The fact remains that people feel that they are forced to run dailies this is not going to be changed by the fact you could gear your character through other less efficient ways. Some of those people have quit and will not return and no amount of telling them they could run heroics a hundred odd times instead is going to bring them back.

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