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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Your point doesn't include bad drops in MSV, which are easily replaced by VP gear.
    Actually, it did ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Today you have valor gear as an alternative to bad drop rates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post

    Olivia Wilde thinks you are awesome!
    What was it now ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Don't waste thread space.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    I noticed that they are finally acknowledging that dailies are too forced.

    "Mists of Pandaria set out to provide lots of things for you to do, but daily quests ended up feeling more mandatory than they wanted. The Patch 5.2 daily quests feel less mandatory."

    Off main page.

    It's sad and frustrating though because it took months of people bitching and complaining and they just defended it by saying 'you don't have to do dailies'. Yes you did because it's the only way to spend the damn JP/VP. Unreal. They didn't lose me personally, but I know a lot of players just in my guild/on my server who quit over the bullshit reputation grinds.
    This has been their MO for a LONG TIME. It is also my biggest gripe with leaders in the company.

    Anytime there is a big issue with recent development, they will defend their decisions to the grave. If you voice an opinion they just write it off as you being the "vocal minority" another phrase I really hate and its just their way of ignoring and deflecting the issues so they don't have to address them.

    Then when they finally do address it, do they give any aknowledgement to those who were frustrated by the content, and then even MORE frustrated when they stood by it, not a fucking chance in hell.

    Blizzard is in desperate need of new management, I'm talking head developers, as well as corporate executives. It is blatantly clear that they don't have the interest of their customers at heart, nor their stockholders (their real loyalty) the game, the company isn't growing. The absence of growth in a company is death... whether an agonizing slow death or not, its still death.

    That being said 9 million players is still enough people to keep SEVERAL mmos going for a considerable amount of time. But the fact remains that they are not doing a good job, and its time for someone else to take the reigns.

    I have said this for a LONG time now. They need to switch their focus from obtaining new players, and focus more on retention and bring back old players. Being an MMO the game is naturally going to progress but when your business model only focuses on getting newbies, who play the game, get to max level, experience a fraction of endgame and then bail, and not on your hardcore fans... you have serious issues.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Please. Can you clear MSV in 463 blues alone (ignoring all the drops in MSV)? No! So MSV was tuned with a mix of 463/489 gear - VP gear. Or full LFR gear.
    Heart Of Fear - go try it in 463 blues. It needs 489 gear either from MSV or VP vendors. Or full 483 LFR gear.
    Yes. It's tuned for heroic blues and Heart of Fear is tuned for the gear you earned from MV. Guilds steam rolled normal mode with possibly 10 epics to go between 10 people before they cleared the final boss. They didn't have weeks of valor built up.

  4. #544
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Your point doesn't include bad drops in MSV, which are easily replaced by VP gear.
    Hey look, we're in an endless circle:

    Bad drops are a minority!
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Likely to get it. It's not guaranteed.
    It's a statistic, it evens out over 2 million people to be half the people.
    And that's for a specific item.
    We should really have the *correct* math for the jump from 463 to 470 (which is what people complain about).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I make no mention of your dislike for dailies. I seem to have hit a nerve but ultimately you are content to put whatever they throw at you even though you do not like this content here you are, not only, still paying Blizzard but defending them for it.
    See, that is the part I reacted to.
    I am not defending them at all.
    I am merely attacking the arguments that are wrong.
    There's a lot wrong with the daily-system, but they are still not being forced.

    So let's start about how they lock all VP-upgrades behind dailies.
    Complain about the huge amount of dailies or even the lore/content hidden behind them.
    But don't say they are forced, that's bullshit.

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    This has been their MO for a LONG TIME. It is also my biggest gripe with leaders in the company.

    Anytime there is a big issue with recent development, they will defend their decisions to the grave. If you voice an opinion they just write it off as you being the "vocal minority" another phrase I really hate and its just their way of ignoring and deflecting the issues so they don't have to address them.
    They only do that if you disagree. If you agree with them and write a moderately coherent post on the official forums, likely as not you'll get a nice blue pat on the head.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    Then when they finally do address it, do they give any aknowledgement to those who were frustrated by the content, and then even MORE frustrated when they stood by it, not a fucking chance in hell.

    Blizzard is in desperate need of new management, I'm talking head developers, as well as corporate executives. It is blatantly clear that they don't have the interest of their customers at heart, nor their stockholders (their real loyalty) the game, the company isn't growing. The absence of growth in a company is death... whether an agonizing slow death or not, its still death.

    That being said 9 million players is still enough people to keep SEVERAL mmos going for a considerable amount of time. But the fact remains that they are not doing a good job, and its time for someone else to take the reigns.

    I have said this for a LONG time now. They need to switch their focus from obtaining new players, and focus more on retention and bring back old players. Being an MMO the game is naturally going to progress but when your business model only focuses on getting newbies, who play the game, get to max level, experience a fraction of endgame and then bail, and not on your hardcore fans... you have serious issues.

    I absolutely agree. The one thing I've never understood is how, after hitting undreamed of levels of subscribers and profits with BC and Vanilla, management at Blizz decided they needed to change the fundamentals of the game as they headed into Wrath. It's like they woke up one morning and went, "The present model got us to 12 million players. I guess it's time to dumb down the game to reduce complexity; change the gearing model; and change how talents, professions, abilities, and even classes work at a fundamental level. Oh, and let's make as much content as possible irrelevant while we're at it."

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    I absolutely agree. The one thing I've never understood is how, after hitting undreamed of levels of subscribers and profits with BC and Vanilla, management at Blizz decided they needed to change the fundamentals of the game as they headed into Wrath. It's like they woke up one morning and went, "The present model got us to 12 million players. I guess it's time to dumb down the game to reduce complexity; change the gearing model; and change how talents, professions, abilities, and even classes work at a fundamental level. Oh, and let's make as much content as possible irrelevant while we're at it."
    It's almost as if they had data showing that only a piddling small fraction of their players raided, and those that didn't were churning through the game and unsubscribing.

    But that would make too much sense and make your whining seem selfish, so it can't possibly be correct, yes?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Yes. It's tuned for heroic blues and Heart of Fear is tuned for the gear you earned from MV. Guilds steam rolled normal mode with possibly 10 epics to go between 10 people before they cleared the final boss. They didn't have weeks of valor built up.
    The great majority of guilds had trouble getting past 2-3 bosses in normal mode MSV without gearing up for a few weeks.

    What top 100 guilds do is not really what everyone else does.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    See, that is the part I reacted to.
    I am not defending them at all.
    I am merely attacking the arguments that are wrong.
    There's a lot wrong with the daily-system, but they are still not being forced.

    So let's start about how they lock all VP-upgrades behind dailies.
    Complain about the huge amount of dailies or even the lore/content hidden behind them.
    But don't say they are forced, that's bullshit.
    It is amazing that all the arguments that are wrong are those that do not agree with Blizzard.

    It is clear you don't understand the problem. Nothing in the game is forced however if you wish to experience the full stories of the new factions there is no alternative but to do dailies until you are exalted so for Lore followers they are forced. For those who want to collect all the profession recipes they must gain exalted status the option is dailies, again, for auction house players there is no alternative. The rep collectors no alternative. So there are three sets of players that are forced to complete dailies.

    There is, also, the issue of regular players feeling that they need complete dailies in order to buy gear that they have not gained through drops. Of course you will argue, pointing to yourself, that they do not need to do dailies in order to fill the missing slots the problem is that many of the alternatives are worse or not even an option as far as these players are concerned no amount of Blizzard telling different and you repeating them is going to change their minds about this. Perception is king in the entertainment/leisure industry and the perception of many is that they are forced to complete dailies.

    They have given their feedback to Blizzard and been told that they are wrong and many have done the only thing they can do in this position and taken their money elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's almost as if they had data showing that only a piddling small fraction of their players raided, and those that didn't were churning through the game and unsubscribing.
    Too true but how this data has driven them to some of their recent decisions is beyond me it is almost like they are playing Brewster's Millions with sub numbers.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Too true but how this data has driven them to some of their recent decisions is beyond me it is almost like they are playing Brewster's Millions with sub numbers.
    The move from BC to Wrath, and the move from Wrath to Cataclysm, are hard to reconcile. They've never adequately explained the discrepancy.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  10. #550
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It is amazing that all the arguments that are wrong are those that do not agree with Blizzard.
    That has to do with chance too

    The thread about "favourite expansion" died within a week and only reached around 8 pages.
    The one about the "worst expansion" where people can complain is still alive at 40 pages.
    Just due to the amount of complaining there HAS to be so many posts with crappy arguments.

    It is clear you don't understand the problem. Nothing in the game is forced however if you wish to experience the full stories of the new factions there is no alternative but to do dailies until you are exalted so for Lore followers they are forced. For those who want to collect all the profession recipes they must gain exalted status the option is dailies, again, for auction house players there is no alternative. The rep collectors no alternative. So there are three sets of players that are forced to complete dailies.
    Yes, and I was one of those players who complained.
    But we got overshadowed by all the "I AM FORCED TO COLLECT GEAR"-threads.

    My problem wasn't that recipes were behind dailies or that VP-gear was behind dailies.
    My complaint was that ALL recipes and VP-gear was behind dailies.

    There is, also, the issue of regular players feeling that they need complete dailies in order to buy gear that they have not gained through drops. Of course you will argue, pointing to yourself, that they do not need to do dailies in order to fill the missing slots the problem is that many of the alternatives are worse or not even an option as far as these players are concerned no amount of Blizzard telling different and you repeating them is going to change their minds about this. Perception is king in the entertainment/leisure industry and the perception of many is that they are forced to complete dailies.
    So we are not allowed to discuss it because they "feel" like that?
    People can feel whatever they want.
    But don't start threads that they force you to do dailies.

    And we shouldn't tell people they are wrong because they won't listen anyway? What kind of nonsense is that..

    They have given their feedback to Blizzard and been told that they are wrong and many have done the only thing they can do in this position and taken their money elsewhere.
    So? They were wrong.
    They are still wrong.

    Just because one stops paying for a subscription doesn't mean he is right.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post



    I absolutely agree. The one thing I've never understood is how, after hitting undreamed of levels of subscribers and profits with BC and Vanilla, management at Blizz decided they needed to change the fundamentals of the game as they headed into Wrath. It's like they woke up one morning and went, "The present model got us to 12 million players. I guess it's time to dumb down the game to reduce complexity; change the gearing model; and change how talents, professions, abilities, and even classes work at a fundamental level. Oh, and let's make as much content as possible irrelevant while we're at it."
    I'm not sure we REALLY agree here... maybe only on the surface.

    First, BC hit 10 million subscribers at around the release of Sunwell content. In WotLK it peaked at 12 million.

    So you are selectively throwing out WotLK and making it irrelevant even though it hit 12 million at the END of the expansion after Ruby Sanctum was released which... very few people actually played. Which was 8 months AFTER the release of ICC and this was when I personally started to see friends and guildmates leave the game because no new content had been added in so long and there just wasn't anything left for them to do.

    So your conclusion is/was that WotLK began a trend of dumbing down the game, and that reduction in complexity was the reason for the decline in subs... I think it is the complete opposite.

    I should qualify this by saying that I have been playing since Vanilla, and have almost been on the moderate-hardcore in the amount of time that I play (but not necessarily a hardcore raider as it does not appeal and my availability does not work well with it).

    My reason for saying that we disagree is that things have become WAAAAY more complicated. Raid mechanics are far more complex than anything we saw in BC or in Vanilla. There is so much going on different phases, targets, roles.

    The accessibility of WotLK is what helped wow to peak. Separate lock out for 10 and 25 man, mean you could raid twice as much. Moving from 10 mans to 25 mans was a simpler transition and progression (despite being outside the realm of intended development).
    5 mans being a 15-30min endeavor, with decent upgrades at the end. Apropriate amount of dailies and rewards that were SEPARATE from any other content.

    In CATA it was the complete opposite, 5 mans were long drawn out and provide ghetto worthless rewards. Raids had a higher gear threshold to even participate in and thus made initially participating in them more difficult (not difficult themselves necessarily but brought back the importance of being properly geared to contribute or bring the group down) not only that while attempting to limit the number of buttons required to push made it much more important to really bring your A-game and be super focused on rotation and resource management, rather than just mindlessly face rolling.

    MoP had the right IDEA in the different type of content available to players, but failed in making it either required... or semi required, and poor rewards for content.

    MMOs live and die by the rewards provided to its participants.

    What they have done (from my perspective) is limit the amount of rewards EXCEPT when doing certain specific content. Thus encouraging you to participate in that content... unless of course you don't like that content
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    then you can go fuck yourself

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Of course you will argue, pointing to yourself, that they do not need to do dailies in order to fill the missing slots the problem is that many of the alternatives are worse or not even an option as far as these players are concerned no amount of Blizzard telling different and you repeating them is going to change their minds about this. Perception is king in the entertainment/leisure industry and the perception of many is that they are forced to complete dailies.ta has driven them
    That is PRECISELY the problem with dailies and why they are forced and really how the dailies are designed and how the gear got behind them in the first place. In fact if the other rewards were as good or even as reliable the large majority of you WOULDN'T TOUCH A DAILY. So by design they must be Compelling (FORCED BY PROGRESSION AND GEAR) to get you to do them and the alternatives must like wise suck and be subject to attrocious rng for instance or insane mat requirements. Dailies become the default choice.

    Saying their are optional is correct in the literal sense but untrue in the essential sense. For raiders they're about as optional as gems on your gear or enchants on your weapons. YOu can technically kill bosses without them, I did it all the time. To fucking lazy to regem gear fuck it. Still killed the boss. Now how many of you would argue to your raid leaders that such a thing was the case?

    For non raiders it's even worse. Even non raiders want to progress. They are essentially just left with lfr and sha ques. Outside of that it's face the attrocious BG grind (which is potentially even more painful than dailies IMHO), farm gold to buy gear (which is still really done with dailies anyway and is also a pretty shit way as the prices can be wholly inflated) and/or unsub until they admit their mistake.

    It is really dishonest and disingenuous of Blizzard to hide behind this stance. It's cataclysm 2.0 all over again. I would have much rather they just come out and said yea dailies are part of the wheel, get over it but instead they decided to hide behind "optionality" of something as if it makes a fucking difference one way or another about the technical definition of the word optional.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 09:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    I'm not sure we REALLY agree here... maybe only on the surface.

    First, BC hit 10 million subscribers at around the release of Sunwell content. In WotLK it peaked at 12 million.

    So you are selectively throwing out WotLK and making it irrelevant even though it hit 12 million at the END of the expansion after Ruby Sanctum was released which... very few people actually played. Which was 8 months AFTER the release of ICC and this was when I personally started to see friends and guildmates leave the game because no new content had been added in so long and there just wasn't anything left for them to do.

    So your conclusion is/was that WotLK began a trend of dumbing down the game, and that reduction in complexity was the reason for the decline in subs... I think it is the complete opposite.

    I should qualify this by saying that I have been playing since Vanilla, and have almost been on the moderate-hardcore in the amount of time that I play (but not necessarily a hardcore raider as it does not appeal and my availability does not work well with it).

    My reason for saying that we disagree is that things have become WAAAAY more complicated. Raid mechanics are far more complex than anything we saw in BC or in Vanilla. There is so much going on different phases, targets, roles.

    The accessibility of WotLK is what helped wow to peak. Separate lock out for 10 and 25 man, mean you could raid twice as much. Moving from 10 mans to 25 mans was a simpler transition and progression (despite being outside the realm of intended development).
    5 mans being a 15-30min endeavor, with decent upgrades at the end. Apropriate amount of dailies and rewards that were SEPARATE from any other content.

    In CATA it was the complete opposite, 5 mans were long drawn out and provide ghetto worthless rewards. Raids had a higher gear threshold to even participate in and thus made initially participating in them more difficult (not difficult themselves necessarily but brought back the importance of being properly geared to contribute or bring the group down) not only that while attempting to limit the number of buttons required to push made it much more important to really bring your A-game and be super focused on rotation and resource management, rather than just mindlessly face rolling.

    MoP had the right IDEA in the different type of content available to players, but failed in making it either required... or semi required, and poor rewards for content.

    MMOs live and die by the rewards provided to its participants.

    What they have done (from my perspective) is limit the amount of rewards EXCEPT when doing certain specific content. Thus encouraging you to participate in that content... unless of course you don't like that content
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    then you can go fuck yourself
    This whole accessibility argument is also bunk imo. Do people not remember vanilla? Vanilla was the most inaccesbile vresion of this game ever. Why did it explode in tbc and wrath? BECAUSE THEY MADE THE GAME MORE ACCESSIBLE. Vastly more accessible in fact. They added avenus for gear outside the raid bringing greater accesibility to gear. Crafting actually became usefull, heroic dungeons gave you gear, and at the end of TBC you got VALOR points. Or what would we become valor points. The HISTORY of the success of warcraft is the history of an mmo that was more accessible than it's competitors by a large margin and increasingly only became more and more accessible.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    So we are not allowed to discuss it because they "feel" like that?
    People can feel whatever they want.
    But don't start threads that they force you to do dailies.

    And we shouldn't tell people they are wrong because they won't listen anyway? What kind of nonsense is that..


    So? They were wrong.
    They are still wrong.

    Just because one stops paying for a subscription doesn't mean he is right.
    It is like banging your head on a brick wall. People have said why they feel this way over and over again quitting is a last resort for many but that is what they are doing. The way someone feels about something cannot be wrong... well it can but lets not go there .... so telling them they are wrong about the way the feel about dailies is pointless.

    Blizzard might not have intended for dailies to be required but many feel that they are, it is Blizzard that must adapt not the other way around.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post

    This whole accessibility argument is also bunk imo. Do people not remember vanilla? Vanilla was the most inaccesbile vresion of this game ever. Why did it explode in tbc and wrath? BECAUSE THEY MADE THE GAME MORE ACCESSIBLE. Vastly more accessible in fact. They added avenus for gear outside the raid bringing greater accesibility to gear. Crafting actually became usefull, heroic dungeons gave you gear, and at the end of TBC you got VALOR points. Or what would we become valor points. The HISTORY of the success of warcraft is the history of an mmo that was more accessible than it's competitors by a large margin and increasingly only became more and more accessible.
    So how is this argument bunk? Because I agree with you that in BC and WotLK they attempted to make it more accessible. With Cata, and MoP they have tried to back track, limit access, and ensure the elitists still feel elitist no matter how it effects the game or community.
    Last edited by Bilbo Baggins; 2013-03-04 at 09:58 PM.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    So how is this argument bunk?
    He meant the argument that that game being more accessible drove down subs is bunk.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    So how is this argument bunk?
    Sorry I was agreeing with you. People make the case that inaccessibility is fun and that the game was more fun because it was inaccessible but that's bunk.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 09:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    He meant the argument that that game being more accessible drove down subs is bunk.
    Thank you.

  17. #557
    Gotcha, we're on the same page now.

  18. #558
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It is like banging your head on a brick wall. People have said why they feel this way over and over again quitting is a last resort for many but that is what they are doing. The way someone feels about something cannot be wrong... well it can but lets not go there .... so telling them they are wrong about the way the feel about dailies is pointless.

    Blizzard might not have intended for dailies to be required but many feel that they are, it is Blizzard that must adapt not the other way around.
    It's more like a brick wall hitting another brick wall.

    But in my opinion it can be wrong.
    What is someone claimed he was forced to do heroic-mode?
    How many people need to cancel subscription before opinion becomes fact?

    And if many people feel that way, Blizzard is free to try and change their mind.
    If Blizzard fails to do so, they can either lose subs or change it.
    The problem is that people were attacking Blizzard and other users on this forum because they "tried to change their mind".

  19. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    Well no shit Blizzard, thanks for noticing the outrage.
    hard to notice legitimate concerns from the sea of whine-fest that is the WoW forums.

    Personally there was a lot to do as a fresh 90. More shit to do than past few expansions had available at level cap. I did all of the rep because I wanted the mounts and other stuff you get @ exhalted. Eventually I stoped doing the dailies for the faction once i hit exhalted. Currently I only do tiller rep because I have not reached Best friends with everybody. There are weeks where I didn't do a single daily quest and still got VP cap. Were dailies mandatory for me? For gear? No definitely not. Raiding + LFR +daily dungeon/scneario = more VP than you can get for gear if i chose to buy and rest got from drops. Are they mandatory for other stuff like mounts...yea its their purpose/incentive.

    Just like you choose to run LFR/LFD for benefits you CHOOSE to do dailies for those benefits. Rep gaining tabards in LFD were a terrible idea in Wrath and I am happy that shit is gone. If that system was in place everyone would be in Vale sitting in the inn waiting on ques.

    I honestly do not think blizzard will ever make something that won't have people in an "outrage" and claim that old stuff was "better"

    [whiners] Not enough content
    [blizzard] Here are various daily quest you can do without cap and get cool rewards/experience lore/get tokens for bonus loot in raids
    [whiners] too much content! I feel like i am forced to do this now. Tnx blizz

    [whiners] Everyone sits in capitals and just que for LFD no one goes out into the world anymore
    [blizzard] no rep tabards so people would have to go out into the world/explore and earn their reputation
    [whiners] QQ bring back tabards I do not want to go out into the world to do stuff i want to que for dungeons only

    [whiners] my server is dead i never see other people. fix this
    [blizzard] introducing CRZ you can now see other people in place you thought were empty before
    [whiners] QQ now i have competition for my mobs/ore/plants/get ganked on pvp server you ruined my game-play

    [whiners] Blizzard is only catering to hardcore players and ignoring their casual base
    [blizzard] Here is LFR you can que when you like and do only what you want
    [whiners] QQ blizzard is only tailoring to casuals what about the hardcore players?
    [blizzard] here are Challenge modes for mounts/xmog gear
    [whiners] blizzard making gear/mount only exclusive to hard core what about the casual player?

    and this list can go on, and on, and on, and on...
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  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    It's more like a brick wall hitting another brick wall.

    But in my opinion it can be wrong.
    What is someone claimed he was forced to do heroic-mode?
    How many people need to cancel subscription before opinion becomes fact?

    And if many people feel that way, Blizzard is free to try and change their mind.
    If Blizzard fails to do so, they can either lose subs or change it.
    The problem is that people were attacking Blizzard and other users on this forum because they "tried to change their mind".
    Who has claimed that they are forced to heroic raids? You would have to ask Blizzard how many cancellations are needed but one thing is for sure we have reached that number.

    Are you on a piss take? Or do you really not understand how customers interact with businesses? People did not complain about dailies because they wanted their minds changed they complained because they did not want to have to do them.

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