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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Who has claimed that they are forced to heroic raids? You would have to ask Blizzard how many cancellations are needed but one thing is for sure we have reached that number.

    Are you on a piss take? Or do you really not understand how customers interact with businesses? People did not complain about dailies because they wanted their minds changed they complained because they did not want to have to do them.
    He's saying potentially if people whining about being forced to run dailies are forced to run them then what's to stop them from whining about being to forced to run heroic raids. Well aside from that being totally stupid and asanine and unlikely for the majority of players as the level of difficulty is prohibitive for them, it misses the point entirely. Valor rewards have a history in this game NOT tied to dailies. The reason dailies are forced is because dailies are a sure reward that is relatively EASY in terms of challenge to accomplish but time consuming. If heroic raids were as easy as dailies and not time consuming then yes people would feel forced to do them as well. The comparison is so retarded on so many levels.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    *snip*
    There are a lot of myths about the growth that WotLK really had on subscriptions.

    January 2007 there were 8 million subscribers at the beginning of TBC and peaked at 11 million in October 2009 prior to the launch of Wrath. One week after the launch of Wrath, Blizz announced 11.5 million subscribers. It wasn't until October 7, 2010 that Blizzard announced subs were over 12 mil.

    Source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=2847812
    Source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=2847816
    Source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=2847881

    So essentially in 2 years TBC gained ~3 mil subs while Wratch gained ~1 mil (500k if you don't include the first week of subs). Even though Wrath had the higher sub number, TBC had MUCH more growth. And growth has significantly slowed down since TBC and is actually on the decline since Wrath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    There are a lot of myths about the growth that WotLK really had on subscriptions.

    January 2007 there were 8 million subscribers at the beginning of TBC and peaked at 11 million in October 2009 prior to the launch of Wrath. One week after the launch of Wrath, Blizz announced 11.5 million subscribers. It wasn't until October 7, 2010 that Blizzard announced subs were over 12 mil.

    Source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=2847812
    Source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=2847816
    Source: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=2847881

    So essentially in 2 years TBC gained ~3 mil subs while Wratch gained ~1 mil (500k if you don't include the first week of subs). Even though Wrath had the higher sub number, TBC had MUCH more growth. And growth has significantly slowed down since TBC and is actually on the decline since Wrath.
    Which still says NOTHING about a correlation between accessiblity or inaccessibility in content. The success of wow was at least in part because it was MORE accessible than the other games on the market. This continued in TBC which made the game EVEN MORE ACCESSIBLE than in vanilla. What it says is that the market was tapped by and large in TBC and the potential growth was in decline because well the market for this type of game is only so big. It HAS NOTHING to do with accessibility. I mean if it did then EQ would have been the game to have 10 million subs. Or the final fantasy mmo where you lose xp when you die. can't remember the number.

    Their is NO relation between sub decline and accessibility. Their is no proof of a relationship other than they kinda happen at the same time but not really. That argument is bunk.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 10:44 PM.

  4. #564
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Who has claimed that they are forced to heroic raids?
    I just claimed it.
    And because I feel forced it IS forced according to your logic.. Because there is no difference, right?
    Are you on a piss take? Or do you really not understand how customers interact with businesses? People did not complain about dailies because they wanted their minds changed they complained because they did not want to have to do them.
    1) People complained because they felt forced to do them.
    2a) Blizzard responded by trying to learn people that it's optional.
    2b) People weren't smart enough to understand what optional means.
    3) Blizzard changed it.

    So according to you they should skip step 2 and immediately cave to QQ'ing, no matter how irrational it is?
    A business that changes their direction on every customer-whim is a bad company.
    If you do something, you have to try to stick with it and try to explain why it was the right choice.

    That's how businesses interact with customers.
    Customers complain about irrational stuff >> Company tries to explain it.
    Customers can now come to senses and nothing changes.
    Or customers still complain and the company changes it.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I just claimed it.
    And because I feel forced it IS forced according to your logic.. Because there is no difference, right?

    1) People complained because they felt forced to do them.
    2a) Blizzard responded by trying to learn people that it's optional.
    2b) People weren't smart enough to understand what optional means.
    3) Blizzard changed it.

    So according to you they should skip step 2 and immediately cave to QQ'ing, no matter how irrational it is?
    A business that changes their direction on every customer-whim is a bad company.
    If you do something, you have to try to stick with it and try to explain why it was the right choice.

    That's how businesses interact with customers.
    Customers complain about irrational stuff >> Company tries to explain it.
    Customers can now come to senses and nothing changes.
    Or customers still complain and the company changes it.
    Their complaints aren't irrational no matter how you try and square it because the dailies very much are forced in any meaningful sense. now if you don't agree that's fine but that doesn't make them irrational. Their is so much wrong with the post and everything you post in general that it gives me a headache to read you. I would argue that the developers catering to YOUR wishes is irrational. In fact I would argue you are being irrational as a whole but hey man go complain to somebody about it.

  6. #566
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I just claimed it.
    And because I feel forced it IS forced according to your logic.. Because there is no difference, right?
    There's also this feeling that you are not sincere in your feelings, therefore you are not sincere about your feelings. You are not really feel forced to do heroic raids. By our logic. Carry on.
    My Little Borg: Friendship is Irrelevant

  7. #567
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Their complaints aren't irrational no matter how you try and square it because the dailies very much are forced in any meaningful sense. now if you don't agree that's fine but that doesn't make them irrational. Their is so much wrong with the post and everything you post in general that it gives me a headache to read you. I would argue that the developers catering to YOUR wishes is irrational. In fact I would argue you are being irrational as a whole but hey man go complain to somebody about it.
    When someone starts a thread and yells "I cannot do LFR without doing dailies!" that is irrational.
    It's irrational because it's false.
    It's false because people can do LFR without touching dailies.
    The majority of complaints on MMO-C was made up by comments like that.

    And maybe you should start to make a point without making personal attacks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    There's also this feeling that you are not sincere in your feelings, therefore you are not sincere about your feelings. You are not really feel forced to do heroic raids. By our logic. Carry on.
    You failed to understand the logic.

    Nobody is forced to do heroic raids.
    That's a personal choice.
    Just as doing dailies is a personal choice.

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    There's also this feeling that you are not sincere in your feelings, therefore you are not sincere about your feelings. You are not really feel forced to do heroic raids. By our logic. Carry on.
    Absolutely not. The argument that's being made doesn't apply to heroic raids at all. It only applies to dailies because they are a relatively EASY and REGULAR source of reward that is just incredibly bland and time consuming. If they weren't easy they wouldn't be accessible, if it wasn't accessible it wouldn't be forced. If it wasn't a regular source of reward it wouldn't be forced.

    Honestly when someone makes that argument and thinks they are rational making it I start to wonder if they're even paying attention.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 11:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Nobody is forced to do heroic raids.
    That's a personal choice.
    Just as doing dailies is a personal choice.
    Are you even reading the conversation that's happening? Or are you so far up your arguments own ass that you can't see what anybody else is saying?

    The majority of complaints on MMOC WERE NOT THAT. The majority of complaints in this thread alone weren't even close to that. It's not false to say DAILIES FEEL FORCED because they very much DO FEEL FORCED. It is false to say that any content is forced because the reality is nothing in this game is forced. I could stop playing tmmrw. That's a real choice mind you, not the non choice the dailies present. If you don't like forced, and you people seem to be hung up over the literal definitions of these words (ignoring the substance of the arguments that are being made) then we'll start using compelled. Dailies are to compelling which is leading them to feel VERY FORCED. Remove the gear from them. Simple.

    This conversation is retarded. Honestly. Even the developers have acknowledged it's a problem and it FELT FORCED. Because it very much WAS FORCED in any meaningful context. In some abstract post modern existentialist sense I'm sure nothing is forced. Sartre would probably be arguing that exact same thing. However in a very real sense it is forced. You people arguing that they aren't are arguing the academic argument and ignoring the realities. To fucking bad for you that the game will be changed to meet our needs and desires instead of your sophistry.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 11:04 PM.

  9. #569
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    When someone starts a thread and yells "I cannot do LFR without doing dailies!" that is irrational.
    It's irrational because it's false.
    It's false because people can do LFR without touching dailies.
    You are missing some bits here
    Yes you technically can do LFR without touching dailies.
    You are also technically can do normal raids completely naked.
    The point is, can and actually do - are different things.

    If you are doing LFR - you need Elder Charms for extra rolls to get the most of it, this charms were added to the game just for that sole purpose - extra rolls.
    In light of low LFR drop rates - they are required. Without them you're just wasting your time there.
    The only way to get charms - via dailies.
    Also, LFR grants 90 VP per run per week. Up to 450 VP total.
    To spend VP you need Reputation with every faction at least honored.
    Should I say, hm, dailies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    You failed to understand the logic.

    Nobody is forced to do heroic raids.
    That's a personal choice.
    Just as doing dailies is a personal choice.
    I used our logic, there was nothing to understand.
    Whatever we feel - is.

    Dailies are mandatory, heroic raiding is not.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-03-04 at 11:06 PM.
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  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I just claimed it.
    And because I feel forced it IS forced according to your logic.. Because there is no difference, right?

    1) People complained because they felt forced to do them.
    2a) Blizzard responded by trying to learn people that it's optional.
    2b) People weren't smart enough to understand what optional means.
    3) Blizzard changed it.

    So according to you they should skip step 2 and immediately cave to QQ'ing, no matter how irrational it is?
    A business that changes their direction on every customer-whim is a bad company.
    If you do something, you have to try to stick with it and try to explain why it was the right choice.

    That's how businesses interact with customers.
    Customers complain about irrational stuff >> Company tries to explain it.
    Customers can now come to senses and nothing changes.
    Or customers still complain and the company changes it.
    You believe that a business meeting its customers' needs is irrational? I honestly still am not sure if this is a joke I am genuinely speechless that someone would be this clueless. Seriously how old are you?

  11. #571
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Are you even reading the conversation that's happening? Or are you so far up your arguments own ass that you can't see what anybody else is saying?
    Are you reading anything in this thread?
    Or what people have been saying for the last few months?

    The majority of complaints on MMOC WERE NOT THAT. The majority of complaints in this thread alone weren't even close to that.
    That was exactly what people were complaining about!
    "Hurdur, I want to follow each path that awards gear so it is forced!"

    It's not false to say DAILIES FEEL FORCED because they very much DO FEEL FORCED.
    But people weren't saying that, they were saying it WAS FORCED.
    The FACT that enough people pointed out how they got into ToES without doing dailies and without good luck in LFR is enough proof that it was not forced at all.

    It is false to say that any content is forced because the reality is nothing in this game is forced. I could stop playing tmmrw. That's a real choice mind you, not the non choice the dailies present. If you don't like forced, and you people seem to be hung up over the literal definitions of these words (ignoring the substance of the arguments that are being made) then we'll start using compelled. Dailies are to compelling which is leading them to feel VERY FORCED. Remove the gear from them. Simple.
    Remove the gear from them and nobody cares anymore.
    If people are working 7 days a week, they want a reward.
    The "problem" is that the reward is actually a reward.
    And the modern MMO-crowd feels like they should obtain every single reward in the game if that helps character-progression.

    And yes, there is a fucking difference between "compelling" and "forced".
    Being forced is when it's the ONLY path you can take.
    Dailies was never the only path, which makes it non-forced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    You are missing some bits here
    Yes you technically can do LFR without touching dailies.
    You are also technically can do normal raids completely naked.
    The point is, can and actually do - are different things.
    So not doing dailies is the same as doing normal raids naked?
    I never touched a single freaking daily in 5.0 but I am still 480 now.
    Problem?

    If you are doing LFR - you need Elder Charms for extra rolls to get the most of it, this charms were added to the game just for that sole purpose - extra rolls.
    In light of low LFR drop rates - they are required. Without them you're just wasting your time there.
    The only way to get charms - via dailies.
    Also, LFR grants 90 VP per run per week. Up to 450 VP total.
    To spend VP you need Reputation with every faction at least honored.
    Should I say, hm, dailies?
    Oooh, not this shit again.
    "I need, I need, I need!"
    Yes, if you want gear extra fast you need to put some damn time in this game.
    If you dislike that you should play some stupid Pay2Win game where you can buy gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    You believe that a business meeting its customers' needs is irrational? I honestly still am not sure if this is a joke I am genuinely speechless that someone would be this clueless. Seriously how old are you?
    Yes, if they immediately jump for every whim.
    c'mon.. give me one successful business that does that.

    And what does my age have to do with anything?
    Last edited by Kangodo; 2013-03-04 at 11:12 PM.

  12. #572
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Are you reading anything in this thread?
    Or what people have been saying for the last few months?


    That was exactly what people were complaining about!
    "Hurdur, I want to follow each path that awards gear so it is forced!"


    But people weren't saying that, they were saying it WAS FORCED.
    The FACT that enough people pointed out how they got into ToES without doing dailies and without good luck in LFR is enough proof that it was not forced at all.


    Remove the gear from them and nobody cares anymore.
    If people are working 7 days a week, they want a reward.
    The "problem" is that the reward is actually a reward.
    And the modern MMO-crowd feels like they should obtain every single reward in the game if that helps character-progression.

    And yes, there is a fucking difference between "compelling" and "forced".
    Being forced is when it's the ONLY path you can take.
    Dailies was never the only path, which makes it non-forced.
    Because IT IS FORCED. Don't you get it? In essence it is terrible forced. In literal actuality it might not be but so what? Nothing is forced in actuality. Like even in Thrall knocked on your door, called you a bitch and told you to run dailies YOU'D STILL HAVE A CHOICE. Short of being telepathically controlled or brainwashed everything is a choice to some degree or another. I mean theirs probably a legal definition where choice flies out the window and people start to have no choice in matters but that's a digression. The fact is that it was INCREDIBLY FORCED and subsequently felt VERY FORCED. Forced isn't a binary. Theirs degrees to it.

    Your attempt to paint people with grievances over the dailies as being irrational is cute but unecessary. In the end YOU end up looking more irrational because well even the developers acknowledge how forced it felt. I check these forums ROUTINELY and was active during the worst part of the daily fiasco at the start of the expansion and the majority of people posting were complaining as either raiders or players looking for an alternative path to gearing outside of LFR but not because they thought they needed it to get into lfr. Well except when the que for lfr had some ridiculous requirement that you couldn't meet with just the dungeon gear which was stupid and they lowered it so even BLizzard acknowledged that. After that totally legit greivance nobody or next to nobody was bitching about dailies to get to lfr. That's a fucking strawman you built up to paint people as irrational. Doesn't work for me.

    Their is ZERO different between compelled and forced because in reality short of being brain washed by martians or hypnotized by a marvel super villain choice is basically always available to you.
    Dailies was the INEVITABLE path and really the only path when you consider the reward behind them or when you consider the path of not doing them.
    Remove the gear THEN YOU"LL HAVE A REAL CHOICE. But we already know you people don't like having real choices because you never touched the fucking dailies without the gear behind them anyway. Why bother right? Were just mice chasing a piece of cheese. Yet somehow the mice shouldn't feel FORCED to go after the cheese.. You people are hilarious. You chose to be bored in cataclysm. How you like that logic? That's a choice. I certainly didn't choose to have this reward model foisted on me because a handful of you co-opted the developers into embracing regressive and painfully stupid ideas about the "good old days" of wow.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 11:23 PM.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Their is NO relation between sub decline and accessibility. Their is no proof of a relationship other than they kinda happen at the same time but not really. That argument is bunk.
    Um... I simply gave hard numbers and facts debunking a post earlier talking about the growth of wrath. There was no purpose or opinion beyond that.

    Your rant ignores the numbers and skews my opinion as you see fit. I would ask that if you intend to twist my words that you at least back it up with some facts instead of an overly passionate opinion that tends to use the caps button too much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    Um... I simply gave hard numbers and facts debunking a post earlier talking about the growth of wrath. There was no purpose or opinion beyond that.

    Your rant ignores the numbers and skews my opinion as you see fit. I would ask that if you intend to twist my words that you at least back it up with some facts instead of an overly passionate opinion that tends to use the caps button too much.
    My rant doesn't ignore the numbers. First of all I never claimed that you said any of that. I was just reinforcing what I had stated earlier about the non relationship between accessibility and sub loss. Second of all my rant doesn't ignore the numbers at all. I didn't even look at the numbers to be honest. I just said their is no proof of a relationship between sub decline and accessibility or lack of accessibility. It's a myth like the yeti. As for your opinion I have no idea what it is but I'm sure you'll be forthcoming with it shortly.

    Furthermore Blizzard never JUMPS to a whim. that's half the fucking problem imo. Just like hard dungeons in cataclysm they REFUSE to acknowledge it's a problem until the next expansion where they do a complete fucking 180. They'd rather write a fucking BLOG telling people how to play the game instead of pursuing methods to alleviate the frustration of their customers. Who runs a Business like this? And these people are successful? They have got to be the luckiest company in the universe. Like nothing sticks to them. They're made of teflon I swear.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-04 at 11:32 PM.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Yes, if they immediately jump for every whim.
    c'mon.. give me one successful business that does that.

    And what does my age have to do with anything?
    No-one is asking Blizzard to jump to whim of every customer the simple fact is many have raised these concerns and Blizzard have tried to, once again, educate them and once again it has cost them customers and money from their bottom line. McDonalds, Walmart, Tesco, Argos, Ikea, many other successful high street brands that are too many to mention would have acted on the feedback given and not told their customers they were in the wrong.

    I asked your age because seriously I cannot workout if you are joking or not, obviously someone who has not left school would know any different and they could be excused for not knowing how the world works.

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And yes, there is a fucking difference between "compelling" and "forced".
    Being forced is when it's the ONLY path you can take.
    Dailies was never the only path, which makes it non-forced.
    Do you feel like you've completely lost your grip on the debate when you start arguing semantics?

    To bypass doing daily quests in this expansion, you need to jump through some major hurdles, or accept that you're doing things sub-optimally. To bypass doing dailies in every other expansion, all you needed to do was not do them.

  17. #577
    Scarab Lord ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's almost as if they had data showing that only a piddling small fraction of their players raided, and those that didn't were churning through the game and unsubscribing.
    Has Blizz ever claimed that players in BC unsubbed because they weren't raiding? Ever? Do you have a single piece of evidence that players quit because they weren't raiding endgame? While raiding may have been the 'pinnacle' of classic-era WoW, there were plenty of players who just enjoyed the climb, without feeling some sort of driven obligation to 'finish' it. Then (to make a long story short, and probably push the analogy too far) Blizz decided it would be simpler (aka. cheaper) to just built a cable-car to the top and ignore the rest of the mountain.

    For that matter, if the problem was fast churn, how was eliminating tiered content, long questlines for attunements and such, and stuff like required farming of gear, supposed to help? How on Earth was putting players on an express train to endgame going to stop churn? Mandatory dailies? Roflmao!

    Players unsub not because of raiding or the lack of it, but because they aren't having fun. Starting sometime in Wrath, Blizzard decided it knew what was fun better than its players did, and ever since they've struggled to keep sub numbers from dropping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But that would make too much sense and make your whining seem selfish, so it can't possibly be correct, yes?
    Nice, personal attacks. <golfclap> Yeah, sure, your idea that Blizz was worried about churn might be a reason for change. Do you have an evidence or reasoning to back that up? Would you like to have, you know, a discussion about the causes and merits of Blizzard's changes? Or would you rather throw insults and engage in blind refutation?

    It's like Blizzard's most ardent supporters are suffering from some sort of battered-person syndrome. They can't even talk rationally about things their idol might have done wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 02:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    I'm not sure we REALLY agree here... maybe only on the surface.

    First, BC hit 10 million subscribers at around the release of Sunwell content. In WotLK it peaked at 12 million.

    So you are selectively throwing out WotLK and making it irrelevant even though it hit 12 million at the END of the expansion after Ruby Sanctum was released which... very few people actually played. Which was 8 months AFTER the release of ICC and this was when I personally started to see friends and guildmates leave the game because no new content had been added in so long and there just wasn't anything left for them to do.

    So your conclusion is/was that WotLK began a trend of dumbing down the game, and that reduction in complexity was the reason for the decline in subs... I think it is the complete opposite.
    You're right about when the peak came - I wasn't very detailed in my earlier post, but to explicate, I tend to think of early Wrath as still being part of the BC era. The talent system was still the same (just bigger), there were still group quests, long questlines, etc. I'm now trying to remember when they patched xp-gain to make leveling alts easier. (A quick trip through wowwiki didn't find anything.) Hell, that might have even been back in late BC. (Just checked, that was patch 2.3. Which is also when they started removing outdoor elites. Dang. I honestly thought that had happened in Wrath.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    I should qualify this by saying that I have been playing since Vanilla, and have almost been on the moderate-hardcore in the amount of time that I play (but not necessarily a hardcore raider as it does not appeal and my availability does not work well with it).

    My reason for saying that we disagree is that things have become WAAAAY more complicated. Raid mechanics are far more complex than anything we saw in BC or in Vanilla. There is so much going on different phases, targets, roles.
    While I started in late vanilla, by the time I was seriously raiding BC was in full swing. I played a ton through the start of Cataclysm, and slowly drifted away during that expansion.

    Actual raid fights may have become more complicated, but I think everything else, from characters to the world itself have become much, much simpler. Crafting (and gathering) are minor things, leveling is easy, traveling is trivial, and (imo) there were basically no challenging quests or instances left outside of endgame (non-LFR) raiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    The accessibility of WotLK is what helped wow to peak. Separate lock out for 10 and 25 man, mean you could raid twice as much. Moving from 10 mans to 25 mans was a simpler transition and progression (despite being outside the realm of intended development).
    5 mans being a 15-30min endeavor, with decent upgrades at the end. Apropriate amount of dailies and rewards that were SEPARATE from any other content.

    In CATA it was the complete opposite, 5 mans were long drawn out and provide ghetto worthless rewards. Raids had a higher gear threshold to even participate in and thus made initially participating in them more difficult (not difficult themselves necessarily but brought back the importance of being properly geared to contribute or bring the group down) not only that while attempting to limit the number of buttons required to push made it much more important to really bring your A-game and be super focused on rotation and resource management, rather than just mindlessly face rolling.
    Here, I think we do see eye-to-eye. Wrath raiding and 5mans were a blast. (With the exception of ToC, which had some fun fights, but didn't quite live up to the rest of the raids, imo.) Cata 5-mans were indeed horrible. I remember (coming into Cata two months after release due to IRL committments) looking at the time required to complete dungeons and comparing it to the provided rewards being a major component of why I decided not to raid in Cata.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    MoP had the right IDEA in the different type of content available to players, but failed in making it either required... or semi required, and poor rewards for content.

    MMOs live and die by the rewards provided to its participants.

    What they have done (from my perspective) is limit the amount of rewards EXCEPT when doing certain specific content. Thus encouraging you to participate in that content... unless of course you don't like that content
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    then you can go fuck yourself
    Heh. I have played in MoP very little - a combination of things about it pushed me away from the game - but your analysis looks good.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    You are missing some bits here
    Yes you technically can do LFR without touching dailies.
    You are also technically can do normal raids completely naked.
    The point is, can and actually do - are different things.

    If you are doing LFR - you need Elder Charms for extra rolls to get the most of it, this charms were added to the game just for that sole purpose - extra rolls.
    In light of low LFR drop rates - they are required. Without them you're just wasting your time there.
    The only way to get charms - via dailies.
    Also, LFR grants 90 VP per run per week. Up to 450 VP total.
    To spend VP you need Reputation with every faction at least honored.
    Should I say, hm, dailies?
    If the only "raiding" you do is LFR, and you play enough that you can run it every week on one (or more) characters, then you will be fine without rep-gated gear and tokens. Gearing in LFR without coins is slow but you have months to finish gearing for the next tier. I would advise someone who isn't doing normal or heroic raiding to forget about coins, unless he is only able to play every other week or something like that.

    Now, I still think the system of dailies in 4.0 is onerous. I don't really care about the gear but they feel "required" to me because of the rep-gated patterns. I don't mind grinding reputation but I do mind having only one way to do it.

  19. #579
    My understanding is that the dailies in 5.2 are a server wide rep faction, akin to isle of quel danas. I didn't touch a single daily in IoQD and still got access to the vendors. Will that be the same in 5.2? Or am I missing something?

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    Has Blizz ever claimed that players in BC unsubbed because they weren't raiding? Ever? Do you have a single piece of evidence that players quit because they weren't raiding endgame?
    You mean, aside from them making raids far easier in the next expansion? But I guess your theory of why they did it is better -- demonic possession, was it?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

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