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  1. #581
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Absolutely not. The argument that's being made doesn't apply to heroic raids at all. It only applies to dailies because they are a relatively EASY and REGULAR source of reward that is just incredibly bland and time consuming. If they weren't easy they wouldn't be accessible, if it wasn't accessible it wouldn't be forced. If it wasn't a regular source of reward it wouldn't be forced.

    Honestly when someone makes that argument and thinks they are rational making it I start to wonder if they're even paying attention.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 11:01 PM ----------



    Are you even reading the conversation that's happening? Or are you so far up your arguments own ass that you can't see what anybody else is saying?

    The majority of complaints on MMOC WERE NOT THAT. The majority of complaints in this thread alone weren't even close to that. It's not false to say DAILIES FEEL FORCED because they very much DO FEEL FORCED. It is false to say that any content is forced because the reality is nothing in this game is forced. I could stop playing tmmrw. That's a real choice mind you, not the non choice the dailies present. If you don't like forced, and you people seem to be hung up over the literal definitions of these words (ignoring the substance of the arguments that are being made) then we'll start using compelled. Dailies are to compelling which is leading them to feel VERY FORCED. Remove the gear from them. Simple.

    This conversation is retarded. Honestly. Even the developers have acknowledged it's a problem and it FELT FORCED. Because it very much WAS FORCED in any meaningful context. In some abstract post modern existentialist sense I'm sure nothing is forced. Sartre would probably be arguing that exact same thing. However in a very real sense it is forced. You people arguing that they aren't are arguing the academic argument and ignoring the realities. To fucking bad for you that the game will be changed to meet our needs and desires instead of your sophistry.
    I agree with this guy. For Heroic raiders, dailies did indeed feel mandatory and nothing you or anyone else say, can change that feeling. Blizz said, that they wanted to make sure, that there was enough content for non raiders but that's not a valid excuse imo. They didn't have to tie reputation to dailies like they did, they didn't have to let raid bosses drop so few VP as they did, they didn't have to let the only way of obtaining Charms be from dailies.

    Heroic raiders will do anything possible to ensure success when raiding and thinking otherwise is just lack of sense.

  2. #582
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I agree with this guy. For Heroic raiders, dailies did indeed feel mandatory and nothing you or anyone else say, can change that feeling. Blizz said, that they wanted to make sure, that there was enough content for non raiders but that's not a valid excuse imo. They didn't have to tie reputation to dailies like they did, they didn't have to let raid bosses drop so few VP as they did, they didn't have to let the only way of obtaining Charms be from dailies.

    Heroic raiders will do anything possible to ensure success when raiding and thinking otherwise is just lack of sense.
    So you are saying that I can't have nice stuff because it "forces" heroic raiders to do something they don't want to do, or even need to do ?

  3. #583
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    So you are saying that I can't have nice stuff because it "forces" heroic raiders to do something they don't want to do, or even need to do ?
    No we're saying there should be options to get that "nice stuff" besides daily quests. Charms only being available from dailies and now pet battles is absolutely stupid since its a currency used mainly in raiding.

  4. #584
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mosely View Post
    Do you feel like you've completely lost your grip on the debate when you start arguing semantics?

    To bypass doing daily quests in this expansion, you need to jump through some major hurdles, or accept that you're doing things sub-optimally. To bypass doing dailies in every other expansion, all you needed to do was not do them.
    Why? Is it that hard for people to use the correct English word?
    If I mean 'hilarious' I am not going to use the word 'sad'.
    If I think something is 'great', I will not use the word 'crap'.
    You can't just use words that have a totally different meaning.

    If I want to speak with people who make up their own language I will talk to toddlers.

  5. #585
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    And yes, there is a fucking difference between "compelling" and "forced".
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Why? Is it that hard for people to use the correct English word?
    If I mean 'hilarious' I am not going to use the word 'sad'.
    If I think something is 'great', I will not use the word 'crap'.
    You can't just use words that have a totally different meaning.

    If I want to speak with people who make up their own language I will talk to toddlers.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compel

    1. to force or drive, especially to a course of action

    First definition, just saying.

  6. #586
    Quote Originally Posted by puppypizza View Post
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compel

    1. to force or drive, especially to a course of action

    First definition, just saying.

    asdjsikadjskal LOL HAHAHAHAHAHH thank you. It's just sophistry their trying to argue at this point. They've really lost the argument now. They lost it back when this BS was hashed out and their only reocourse was to cling to the literal meaning of the words. Turns out even the literal meanings of these words don't agree with them. Fantastic. Thank you so much. That's just fucking amazing. I don't know if the developers actually looked up the root of the word because they call it compelling all the time but they really ought to stop now. That's fantastic. I think I'm gonna tweet that to ghostcrawler.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 07:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    So you are saying that I can't have nice stuff because it "forces" heroic raiders to do something they don't want to do, or even need to do ?
    Why does that nice stuff have to be gear driven dailies? Like I'm all for you having dailies with gear and going as slow as you like. I just don't see why I should have to deal with it when you can have REAL choice in the matter. I could theoretically farm my face off in dungeons for valor and rep with a tabard and you could take your time and daily once a day just like the little engine that could and it wouldn't make a difference. That would be REAL choice. Not the non choice we have now.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-05 at 08:06 AM.

  7. #587
    - I am forced to pay 15$/month to play this game ( since that's the only way )
    - I am forced to do Heroic Shekzer ( Heroic Raid ) to get my epic fist weapon ( the best weapon for me ) ... ( since there's no other way to get the gear )
    - I am forced to do daily to get reputation ... ( since there's no other way ... maybe the pipe )
    - I am forced to get reputation to buy gear from faction vendor .. ( since there's no other way )
    - I am not Forced to buy from Reputation Vendor to gear up ... ( since you can gear up from other way ... Prof, LFR, Normal Raid, Heroic Raid )

    Yes, you are forced to do daily if you want to gear up faster ( But none forced you to gear up faster ... is it ? )

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus_77 View Post
    - I am forced to pay 15$/month to play this game ( since that's the only way )
    - I am forced to do Heroic Shekzer ( Heroic Raid ) to get my epic fist weapon ( the best weapon for me ) ... ( since there's no other way to get the gear )
    - I am forced to do daily to get reputation ... ( since there's no other way ... maybe the pipe )
    - I am forced to get reputation to buy gear from faction vendor .. ( since there's no other way )
    - I am not Forced to buy from Reputation Vendor to gear up ... ( since you can gear up from other way ... Prof, LFR, Normal Raid, Heroic Raid )

    Yes, you are forced to do daily if you want to gear up faster ( But none forced you to gear up faster ... is it ? )
    Technically your not forced to do any of those things. You don't have to pay 15 bucks to play this game. Nothing about what you listed is forced. At all. That doesn't mean it's good or that's it doesn't severely shove you in that direction. And it's designed to do exactly that. The developers just call it "compelling" when in reality it's very much FORCED.

  9. #589
    It just gets to a point where if someone says they "feel forced" to do something, and the retort is "Well, if you just do this, that, this and that, and if you know a guy, and the stars align, then you don't have to, ergo it's not mandatory", you just have to shake your head. That or you just get called lazy, entitled or undeserving. :/ Bonus points for all 3.

    Doesn't matter if it's "absolutely mandatory" or "effectively mandatory". The game designers may put up hoops, but if players don't wanna jump through them, something's gotta give.

    How about instead of attacking the semantics ("It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."), people look at the heart of the argument. The developers seem to feel that "mandatory"-ness was affecting people's enjoyment of the game. So they're putting in viable alternatives. Alternatives are a good thing. You get to keep playing the game the way you wanted, and now other people can play the game the way they want.

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Why does that nice stuff have to be gear driven dailies? Like I'm all for you having dailies with gear and going as slow as you like. I just don't see why I should have to deal with it when you can have REAL choice in the matter. I could theoretically farm my face off in dungeons for valor and rep with a tabard and you could take your time and daily once a day just like the little engine that could and it wouldn't make a difference. That would be REAL choice. Not the non choice we have now.
    Well, probably because they feel that dungeons are rewarding enough as they are. You know, like they keep telling you ?

  11. #591
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    No we're saying there should be options to get that "nice stuff" besides daily quests. Charms only being available from dailies and now pet battles is absolutely stupid since its a currency used mainly in raiding.
    This.

    /thread

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Well, probably because they feel that dungeons are rewarding enough as they are. You know, like they keep telling you ?
    They kept telling us dailies shouldn't feel forced. And yet here we are. I get that they think dungeons are rewarding enough. I disagree with them but it's a moot point really. They could give me all the dungeon reward in the universe and you could sitll daily your face off for your "nice" things. Of course what they won't tell you is that if they did that then it's likely you'd feel very FORCED to do dungeons over your daily quests and then well we can't force you guys who like dailies to do anything outside your little bubble can we? The proverbial shoe would be on the other foot. So dungeons have to have exactly the reward they do now which isn't enough. If they had anymore well dailies would fall by the way side really.

    Effectively when they say dungeons have enough reward, they are using the forced argument as well but they just don't get around to saying it. If dungeons had anymore reward they'd feel VERY FORCED over dailies and then dailies would be obsolete even though you could potentially still do them and take your time and be as slow as you like. Of course they never acknowledge that forced argument because people upset at dailies would just turn it around and say well dailies are forced then which they are.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-05 at 08:45 AM.

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by velde046 View Post
    That's not true, they said they agreed that it FELT forced, not that it actually was. Because it simply wasn't.... there were plenty of ways to gear up, it would just take longer, but still it was/is possible.
    The thing here is that it would take "too long" for players standards. Yeah... some people can put up with it but guess what? lots of people WILL NOT put up with it.
    There's no reason to limit players options... oh wait let me rephrase that: There's no reason to limit player equal options.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by Xihuitl View Post
    The monk thing would not work for the simple reason that autoattacks for melee (and hunters) and cast times for ranged act as a balancing effect on dps over time and help control it. If you take a class with no auto attack it still needs to do the same dps over time as other specs to be competitive, but you have to bake all that dps into on use abilities, meaning the burst potential is massively higher, esp when you are combining it with an "on demand deplete" resource like chi. No auto attack in wow woudl have meant massive burst in pvp, and if you toned that down, it woudl have meant sub-par dps in pve.
    Its a simple fundamental principle that should have been obvious from the start to Bliz. You cant shoe horn in a no-auto attack class into a game dominated by auto attack/cast time classes and expect it to be balanced.
    Actually they have a mechanic called "DoT" which allows them to balance it quite thoroughly even without putting 20% of damage into auto-attack (which it is for most melees). The reason they felt it wasn't thoroughly workable was other issues than just pvp burst potential.

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by gnlogic View Post
    [whiners] Not enough content
    [blizzard] Here are various daily quest you can do without cap and get cool rewards/experience lore/get tokens for bonus loot in raids
    [whiners] too much content! I feel like i am forced to do this now. Tnx blizz

    [whiners] Everyone sits in capitals and just que for LFD no one goes out into the world anymore
    [blizzard] no rep tabards so people would have to go out into the world/explore and earn their reputation
    [whiners] QQ bring back tabards I do not want to go out into the world to do stuff i want to que for dungeons only

    [whiners] my server is dead i never see other people. fix this
    [blizzard] introducing CRZ you can now see other people in place you thought were empty before
    [whiners] QQ now i have competition for my mobs/ore/plants/get ganked on pvp server you ruined my game-play

    [whiners] Blizzard is only catering to hardcore players and ignoring their casual base
    [blizzard] Here is LFR you can que when you like and do only what you want
    [whiners] QQ blizzard is only tailoring to casuals what about the hardcore players?
    [blizzard] here are Challenge modes for mounts/xmog gear
    [whiners] blizzard making gear/mount only exclusive to hard core what about the casual player?

    and this list can go on, and on, and on, and on...
    allow me to fix this:

    Quote Originally Posted by gnlogic View Post
    [whiners type 1: bussybody] Not enough content
    [blizzard] Here are various daily quest you can do without cap and get cool rewards/experience lore/get tokens for bonus loot in raids
    [whiners type 2: easy overwhelm] too much content! I feel like i am forced to do this now. Tnx blizz

    [whiners type 3: globe trotter] Everyone sits in capitals and just que for LFD no one goes out into the world anymore
    [blizzard] no rep tabards so people would have to go out into the world/explore and earn their reputation
    [whiners type 4: dungeon trotter] QQ bring back tabards I do not want to go out into the world to do stuff i want to que for dungeons only

    [whiners type 5: pack mentality] my server is dead i never see other people. fix this
    [blizzard] introducing CRZ you can now see other people in place you thought were empty before
    [whiners type 6: lone wolfs] QQ now i have competition for my mobs/ore/plants/get ganked on pvp server you ruined my game-play

    [whiners type 7: "casuals"] Blizzard is only catering to hardcore players and ignoring their casual base
    [blizzard] Here is LFR you can que when you like and do only what you want
    [whiners type 8: "hardcores"] QQ blizzard is only tailoring to casuals what about the hardcore players?
    [blizzard] here are Challenge modes for mounts/xmog gear
    [whiners type 9: "casuals"] blizzard making gear/mount only exclusive to hard core what about the casual player?

    and this list can go on, and on, and on, and on...
    Moral of the story? DIFFERENT whiners whine making it look like whinning is all the time.

    WHINNING CONTINUES BECAUSE BLIZZARD TRIES TO CATTER TO EVERYONE, WHEN IT IS FREAKING IMPOSSIBLE! NOT ONCE IN HUMAN HISTORY OF ANYTHING HAS ANYONE MADE EVERYONE HAPPY! REALITY IS NOT FREAKING MEDAKA BOX AND BLIZZARD IS NOT FREAKING KUROKAMI MEDAKA!

    This the true source of "whinning" problem in blizzard games. The only way to fix it is to select one solid playerbase type and stick with it.
    Last edited by Dzudzadzo; 2013-03-05 at 09:00 AM.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus_77 View Post
    - I am forced to pay 15$/month to play this game ( since that's the only way )
    - I am forced to do Heroic Shekzer ( Heroic Raid ) to get my epic fist weapon ( the best weapon for me ) ... ( since there's no other way to get the gear )
    - I am forced to do daily to get reputation ... ( since there's no other way ... maybe the pipe )
    - I am forced to get reputation to buy gear from faction vendor .. ( since there's no other way )
    - I am not Forced to buy from Reputation Vendor to gear up ... ( since you can gear up from other way ... Prof, LFR, Normal Raid, Heroic Raid )
    I'm guessing that this post was made to show contrast between what is truly "forced" and "not forced", with the goal to show that the last thing is not. But it's only fair to supply alternatives to the other points when applicable.

    - Not forced. Someone could pay for your subscription, or you could get one of those lifetime subscription cards that Blizzard gives to friends and family.

    - Not forced. You set that goal yourself. The game doesn't require you to have the best weapon. And by tomorrow, this will probably be reading "forced to do Heroic Council/Consorts for best fist weapon".

    - Yes, currently. It didn't used to be so, and it's being changed. Aren't you thankful?

    - See above.

    - Professions? Hopefully you picked the right profession and the right class. Or picked the right server and either know someone or have a lot of money. Either way, it's not nearly enough on its own. The most upgrades you're looking at are: chest, hands and weapons/offhand. Maybe helm if you're an Engineer.

    Normal and Heroic Raids? If you have a guild carrying you through raids for gear, what would you even need rep gear for?

    LFR? Aside from the obvious facetious remark I could make about LFR not being about gear but seeing content, wouldn't this be a chicken and egg problem? Gotta run LFR to get the gear to run LFR. Besides, Blizzard said that they don't see LFR as being a gearing alternative for regular raiders. It is its own "game".

    Now of course, all of this could be rendered moot after 5.2 comes out. I don't know if you can become eligible for LFR Throne of Thunder without having to do the same stuff as before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deus_77 View Post
    Yes, you are forced to do daily if you want to gear up faster ( But none forced you to gear up faster ... is it ? )
    Not this again. No one's forcing you to gear up, no one's forcing you to raid, no one's forcing you to log in, no one's forcing you to pay. No one probably forces you to do anything in your life if you see it that way, other than maybe the police.

    But if the alternative is so ridiculous that it makes the game not fun anymore, what's the point of playing at all?

  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Technically your not forced to do any of those things. You don't have to pay 15 bucks to play this game. Nothing about what you listed is forced. At all. That doesn't mean it's good or that's it doesn't severely shove you in that direction. And it's designed to do exactly that. The developers just call it "compelling" when in reality it's very much FORCED.
    Well, to be honest, what distinguishes the most skilled players is their ability to perform their roles while executing precise mechanics. Gear is a secondary factor. Important, but secondary. The best teams go in horribly undergeared and still find a way to kill bosses.

    So, it's not really about the coins, because the best guilds only need to farm coins for a couple of weeks and they're done till the next tier.

    You can say it's about the coins and about gear from LFR and all the other little things but in reality it's not. Gear is something the not-quite-the-best guilds obsess about.

  18. #598
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    Well, to be honest, what distinguishes the most skilled players is their ability to perform their roles while executing precise mechanics. Gear is a secondary factor. Important, but secondary. The best teams go in horribly undergeared and still find a way to kill bosses.

    So, it's not really about the coins, because the best guilds only need to farm coins for a couple of weeks and they're done till the next tier.

    You can say it's about the coins and about gear from LFR and all the other little things but in reality it's not. Gear is something the not-quite-the-best guilds obsess about.
    I agree nobody needs the gear. I don't see what relevance that has to do with it being forced content. Again nobody needs anything ni this game including the sub. Well Blizzard needs that but nobody needs to play this game. The game is all about want. So I really don't get the point your making here?

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I agree nobody needs the gear. I don't see what relevance that has to do with it being forced content. Again nobody needs anything ni this game including the sub. Well Blizzard needs that but nobody needs to play this game. The game is all about want. So I really don't get the point your making here?
    What's my point?

    If you want to progress faster, then you need to execute better. You don't need to do dailies for four months to do that.

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    What's my point?

    If you want to progress faster, then you need to execute better. You don't need to do dailies for four months to do that.
    And I still don't get what that has to do with the forced nature of dailies? First of all it simple isn't true. Gear can and often will help you make up for soft execution. You don't NEED It, it's not a requirement like the settings on back of the box but if your serious about raiding your going to get it. I mean I don't need gems and enchants on my gear to clear the bosses either. Execution should do that. Would you accept that? Probably not. And that's cause your a raider and you know what's up.

    Second of all even if it's true it doesn't make a difference in so far as the forced nature of dailies are concern. Dailies are forced because the alternatives are POORER and not steady and or easily exhausted. It has ZERO to do with raiding although I definetely feel that progression raiders are hampered when they don't run dailies and IIRC Bashiok said in some blue post somewhere that that's part of the territory of being a progression raider. Doing all this extra crap outside the raid.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-05 at 09:51 AM.

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