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  1. #361
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The contrary, I was extremely unlucky.

    1) There are other ways to make money besides creating armour.
    2) People hardly 'ninja' loot in dungeons.
    3) It doesn't take that long, except for 1 in a million people.
    4) With bad luck, you might be one month behind everyone else.

    Isn't that terrible? A system where, if you start a month later, you are behind a month.
    How dare they!?
    1. Dailies?
    2. Lies
    3. Lies. It's quite the other way around. A few lucky fucks and the whole bunch of losers. Especially if you do not do any dailies (dailies provide you with roughly 3 more Sha rolls a week or 3 more rolls in MSV)
    4. Lies. Without being EXTREMELY lucky you are bound to fall behind. (Not doing dailies that is)
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-03-03 at 11:51 AM.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    Really sick of seeing this argument. The fact is, if you don't do dailies to unlock valor gear, you get gear locked and your character progression comes to a grinding halt.

    Let's take dungeons for example. The highest ilvl you can obtain off dungeons is 463. Then, you're left to grind LFR MSV for *months* (unless the rng gods just lay a golden brick on you) to reach 470 to queue for the remaining LFR raids.

    So, as a result, you're looking at grinding for PvP gear and/or spending 20-35k (sever prices may vary) for BoE pieces to fill in the slots you need as just acquiring the Sha boots and Klaxxi neck aren't going to cut it.

    Blizzard acknowledged this because the gear bottleneck must be an obvious eyesore from their overall player participation data.
    So you want the privilege to raid in X zone , In order to do so you need to get X ilvl, one of the journys you have to take Is doing dailies In order to accomplish that, you dont want to , you dont have time, Its your own problem, your mentality Is just annoying , "I WANT GEAR WITHOUT ANY EFFORT" seriously, guys like you will make this game to go to hell, DING LVL 100 , MAILBOX WITH FULL EPIC GEAR , NOW GO AHEAD HERO GO AND EXPLORE ALL OUR RAIDS AND HEROICS AND ALL THE CONTENT RIGHT NOW! OH U CRYING ITS TOO HARD WHEN YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT YOUR CLASS? OKAY WE NERF THE CONTENT, HAVE FUN!

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Keny View Post
    So you want the privilege to raid in X zone , In order to do so you need to get X ilvl, one of the journys you have to take Is doing dailies In order to accomplish that, you dont want to , you dont have time, Its your own problem, your mentality Is just annoying , "I WANT GEAR WITHOUT ANY EFFORT" seriously, guys like you will make this game to go to hell, DING LVL 100 , MAILBOX WITH FULL EPIC GEAR , NOW GO AHEAD HERO GO AND EXPLORE ALL OUR RAIDS AND HEROICS AND ALL THE CONTENT RIGHT NOW! OH U CRYING ITS TOO HARD WHEN YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT YOUR CLASS? OKAY WE NERF THE CONTENT, HAVE FUN!
    There are different types of challenges, one might be skillbased (meaning you do something difficult that might take time to learn) another one is timebased(it takes a shitload of time) dailies are timebased and its the equivalent of say writing nonsense sentences on the blackboard two thousand times And the later one is not particular good game design, although I heard farmville pulled it off pretty nice so we'll call it “effective game design”.

  4. #364
    I will say that it doesn't feel nearly as forced now, but right at the start it sure as heck did. I'm not one to sit around and let an upgrade just sit there without taking advantage of it, so while I might not have " needed " it, I wasn't going to just sit and hope for an upgrade when I knew I could get a guaranteed one.

    I'm not a huge fan of dailies, didn't do them in TBC, didn't do them in Wrath and only did TB until I got one of the weapons. With that said, I still think the worst mistake they made was forcing you to do Golden Lotus if you wanted to do the others. I think if they had not done that, allowing people to go straight after the crafting schematics they needed most players would of felt better about them. TBH most of the rest of them weren't a huge issue, but the Golden Lotus dailies sucked balls.

  5. #365
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    If they did it this way:
    1. Dailies reward same gold, 2x valor (10), same rep - but no coins
    2. Coins - are removed. Charms quest still remains - but requires 90 Motes of Harmony to get 3 charms per week. Motes are farmed everywhere and drop rate increased. Players now have an option to either use Spirits for crafting or as bonus rolls or both (you, Chinese farmers, you).
    3. Valor items do not require rep (but if they want to gate things - vendors are unavailable at the start of expansion - they appear with raids - or a week later than raids)
    4. Rep vendors provide lower quality epics (476) for gold at revered/exalted (different piece at each level) - they also provide 463 blues at friendly/honored (some odd pieces).
    5. Dungeons/Scenarios have higher chance to drop 476 epics - on par with the time needed to get them from Rep vendors.
    6. Dungeons provide JP for Justice Vendors which are available at level 90 right away. So players can prepare themselves for heroics.
    7. Heroics provide VP - just like now. Scenarios, LFR, raids - the same. Weekly Valor Cap - the same, Total valor cap - the same.

    If they did it THAT way - no one would've complained about dailies being mandatory. And they still would've gated content.
    Everyone would've being content with the content:

    1. People who don't like running dungeons and raids but love dailes and being in the world - can gear to 476 ilvl doing so.
    2. People who don't like dailies and prefer to run LFR - would have this progression: scenarios/heroics -> LFR
    3. People who wants to just raid: scenarious/heroics == (LFR) -> Normal raids.
    4. People who have spare time in game - can do either of the other activities at their leisure. Not to mention PVP.
    5. People who wants to cap VP (for whatever reason, hey - legendary quest) - will have to do more than one activity.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 05:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    1. No others, try again.
    2. No, not really. It hardly happens.
    3. Statistics disagree.
    4. Fall behind on what? Everybody in this world is lucky except for you?
    1. Are you unable to spell it out? This is not chat you know. Don't increase page count in the thread with such nonsense.
    2. It happens all the time.
    3. Present your statistics then
    4. In everything, behind people who do dailies. They have 489/496 VP epics, you have no luck in LFR.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-03-03 at 01:06 PM.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  6. #366
    Deleted
    The reason they acknowledge it is because a lot of players feel that way. They are really only trying to reflect the players opinion here as they have to in order to improve the game. I guess you can say that if so many players felt that way there has to at least be something to it. I guess they were mandatory to some degree for players who wanted to be competitive. However most people have exaggerated, it wasn't actually that bad for a lot of reasons.
    Last edited by mmocedbf46d113; 2013-03-03 at 05:07 PM.

  7. #367
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    I don't know, when they say "dailies felt TOO mandatory". That in my books means that dailies were at least SOMEWHAT mandatory. Dailies can't feel too mandatory if they are not mandatory to begin with.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    Well, there are those chests which award reputation (do they? I purged that horible grind out of my memory). Too bad they're only available after revered Golden Lotus when you *no longer need them*... I seriously wonder who had this brilliant idea of gating them as well.
    You can get keys to access chests right from the start. Granted, more of the underground area that has the chests opens out when you have higher rep, but sometimes a chest will spawn right on the stairs, or in the first room.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by dense View Post
    they don't say they are mandatory, they say they feel mandatory.
    Which is the right way to approach it, because they really weren't. You can get LFR ready without doing a single daily (HoF and Terrace drops being ~6 iLvls behind most valor gear), which can gear you appropriately for Normal raiding. Getting from MSV to HoF - Terrace can be a pain, but that's the nature of gear progression. You can skyrocket your ilvl just by doing the 5.1 dailies, at about 20m a day.

    I think the root of the problem lies with the history of valor gear. Being that it was so easily available before, it was expected that you get your valor cap for the week, and had all of your items by a specific date. For some players it'd be the strongest gear they'd ever obtain, with only a 7 dungeon-run (chain them all in a single day if you'd like) investment. After which, they sat around in Stormwind / Org doing nothing.

    The shift in paradigm didn't come with a shift in attitude by players. It's unfortunate that the majority of players feel like they need everything immediately; there's a huge time investment required to do every single daily every single day to hit that sweet spot, but that wasn't the point.

    I never understood the rush to get everything done as soon as possible. Even if you were going to, you can't even afford all that gear you unlocked. It's going to take you a few months just to have the valor available to buy all that gear. Pacing yourself is just as effective, and much more enjoyable.

    I also feel that Golden Lotus pacing did more immediate harm than anything else. It took way too long to get anywhere. The rest weren't too bad. Cloud Serpent takes less than a week (3ish days with commendation). Klaxxi starts halfway through honoured after the zone quests (revered after the commendation).

    August Celestials could actually use more quests to improve pacing.
    Shado-Pan felt appropriate, though could've used some more front-end quests in Townlong to bolster rep gain.

    I think the way they approached the 5.1 questline is fantastic, weaving story quests between varying dailies, ultimately throwing more of them in as you get closer to exalted. The pacing felt perfect, and I was genuinely interested to keep up.

    I can understand the frustration with crafting recipes are locked behind reputation. Not sure why we're using that archaic model... should just make them account bound already. Beyond that, though, it's not really a big dea.

    The argument really boils down to semantics, though. The fact is (not opinion, fact) that it is perfectly feasible to progress into higher tiers of raiding without doing a single daily. You're inevitably going to get stronger, faster, if you participate (that's the nature of the genre), but in no way are they mandatory to progress your character.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-03 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Clarity, structure, grammar.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of time it would take to gear your character in this way. If we take you figures of 50K JP needing roughly 300 Heroic runs then 21000 JP will take around 125 runs. Unless you are a tank or a healer you will spend roughly 10-15 minutes waiting in the queue this alone will amount to 20-30 hours of game time spent queuing.
    Geared 5 chars this way, all hit 470 2-3 days after hitting lvl90. Though ofc now I have a darkmoon trinket to ship around to whoever needs it. (No need for flying if u never leave town)
    Though DPS que at "prime time" is not that long. Did some 5man runs with my guild, every jadeserpent is 8min~
    If you call that waiting time for gametime, does it mean that u farm/do dailies during it?

    125 runs would be at worst RNG ever, and if u do it very casual u might hit a new week and can do Sha/MSV again. Any epic item would remove atleast 9 runs.

  11. #371
    If it boils down to semantics you're just trying to win an argument on a technicality. Great. You win. Now you can stop. The thing is, it doesn't really matter what you say the semantics are. People who are invested in the game and want to see their raid team succeed have a drive that makes them go for any advantage they can get to ensure the greatest chance of their success. You can sit there and imply the whole "smh at people who threw themselves into dailies" and "stupid people working too hard for their goals" but these people are doing it, they get burnt out and they quit.

    Forum posts about how dailies are mandatory isn't semantically correct isn't going to bring them back. Getting the system brought back to something sane is going to bring them back. These types of arguments are a completely counter-productive enterprise and should be called out for the borderline concern trolling that it is.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Anevers View Post
    Welcome to what raiding was back in Vanilla and BC, farming content for ages with no guarantee of an upgrade for months.
    and I raided in Vanilla and BC...and I have no problem with that as such. However, you cant sit there and say that dailies virtually mandatory for progression in their current form, especially for the casual player

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 05:12 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    The contrary, I was extremely unlucky.

    1) There are other ways to make money besides creating armour.
    2) People hardly 'ninja' loot in dungeons.
    3) It doesn't take that long, except for 1 in a million people.
    4) With bad luck, you might be one month behind everyone else.

    Isn't that terrible? A system where, if you start a month later, you are behind a month.
    How dare they!?
    1. Sure...like enchanting...oh wait..thats rep..alch maybe? inscrip? so thats what..2 crafting professions
    2. What server/battlegroup do you play on then? Im xferring then...
    3. Its all rng based...going on the base that you are casual and can run maybe 1-2 heroics a day, it could become a VERY long process
    4. again, totally rng based

    And no, its not terrible, just dont sit there like a noob and tell people that the only way to spend valor/get crafting patterns/upgrades outside raiding is optional...because its not

  13. #373
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    3. RNG is still a chance. 10% means you can expect it to drop every 10 kills.
    4. RNG can be calculated.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

  14. #374
    They are mandatory for anyone even semi serious about progression. They are burning people out fast, they need to go diaf if they think I want to do dailys and play farmville everyday just to keep from getting bored and unsubbing, if anything this would make me unsub.
    Hi Sephurik

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliladon View Post
    If it boils down to semantics you're just trying to win an argument on a technicality. Great. You win. Now you can stop. The thing is, it doesn't really matter what you say the semantics are. People who are invested in the game and want to see their raid team succeed have a drive that makes them go for any advantage they can get to ensure the greatest chance of their success. You can sit there and imply the whole "smh at people who threw themselves into dailies" and "stupid people working too hard for their goals" but these people are doing it, they get burnt out and they quit.

    Forum posts about how dailies are mandatory isn't semantically correct isn't going to bring them back. Getting the system brought back to something sane is going to bring them back. These types of arguments are a completely counter-productive enterprise and should be called out for the borderline concern trolling that it is.
    At some point it just becomes whining that we actually have to play the game. The majority of complaints, especially early in the expansion cycle, consisted of "how are we supposed to do all dailies everyday." The answer from both Blizzard and the rest of the community was "you don't have to." Apparently that answer wasn't satisfactory, despite that it's mathematically unfeasible to want to grind everything out as fast as possible.

    We'll use the Klaxxi as an example, because they're the fastest to hit revered.
    Start at approximately 6000 reputation from revered. (after zone quests)
    Their daily quests provide 5460 per week. It takes about eight days from a fresh ninety without the commendation. We'll assume Nine days overall to account for the zone quests providing Klaxxi repuation.

    Those nine days unlock 5250 Valor worth of rewards.
    This is all assuming you don't have a commendation from a previous main. You can hit revered without even finishing the zone. That's a single day for 5250 Valor worth of rewards.

    2000 possible Valor at point of Revered. 3250 Valor discrepancy. In the four weeks it takes to afford all of those rewards, you could EASILY get another reputation to revered just by focusing on one of them at a time. You'd probably get most of the way through another, too.

    It's going to take six weeks to just obtain all Klaxxi related rewards, so it just doesn't make sense to rush all reputations simultaneously. There's another 5750 Valor required for Golden Lotus gear, 6500 for 5.1 reputations, 4750 for August Celestials, and 5250 from the Shado-Pan.

    It's going to take 29500 Valor (30 weeks) until you can afford all of the rewards. There's no point in focusing and grinding multiple reputations at once; it serves absolutely no purpose gear-wise.

    As for worries about being cutting edge, and maximizing yourself for the raid, etc... that doesn't hold much water when considering the above, and that normal raid rewards are already higher in power than the reputation rewards (excepting 5.1).

    I have no sympathy for people who don't pace themselves accordingly and become burnt out, sorry. Blizzard tried babysitting people before, and we wound up with nothing to do. They take off the chains, and now there's "too much". It's the equivalent of going to a buffet, and complaining to the chef when you eat too much food too quickly.

    I'm ambivalent about the decision to move valor behind raid-rep rewards; note that I'm not advocating locking them behind world-reputations either, but placing behind reputation really REALLY isn't nearly as much of a big deal as the community would claim.

    It's tiring to see players whining, wanting what effectively amounts to sitting in a dungeon for the entirety of their playtime. It speaks to the sense of entitlement existent in a portion of the playerbase, more so than it does about Blizzard's design decisions. The torches and pitchforks raised is just par for the course, and it's getting exhausting.

    It's a perfectly reasonable system to get players out into the world, and it worked. There's no need to provoke players into the world for 5.2 because everyone is localized on a single island, so the new system serves it purpose.

    Pontificating and labelling me a 'borderline troll' isn't helpful to the discussion, either.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-03 at 07:00 PM. Reason: Clarity, structure.

  16. #376
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    1. Yes, I'm making money with both those professions without touching dailies.
    Should we all drop our current professions and get those?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    I didn't do it and I am ready to raid 5.2 and I had around 10k gold all the time.
    So I have proven that it is optional
    You have proven to be either extremely lucky in wow or a liar.
    Remember, anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    Words words words
    I see words but nothing productive. Can you people please go away? We get it. Your horse is high. You sit atop it. You're perfectly comfortable in this situation. Meanwhile we continue to lose our friends and they're not coming back. The system is broken.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Veliladon View Post
    I see words but nothing productive. Can you people please go away? We get it. Your horse is high. You sit atop it. You're perfectly comfortable in this situation. Meanwhile we continue to lose our friends and they're not coming back. The system is broken.
    And your additions to this discussion are much more helpful, are they?

    Please, your contribution has been nothing beyond the dismissal of perfectly reasonable posts. Players leave the game, that's inevitable. Blaming design decisions for people burning themselves out, or losing interest in the game, is nothing short of whining.

    The only problem with the current system is an inflated sense of what players think they deserve.

    Refute my points, or leave, but don't come in here claiming that I'm just pontificating and talking down to the community. You do nothing by diminutizing the posts of other players who disagree with your stance.
    Last edited by Bashkar; 2013-03-03 at 06:58 PM.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Bashkar View Post
    And your additions to this discussion are much more helpful, are they?

    Please, your contribution has been nothing beyond the dismissal of perfectly reasonable posts. Players leave the game, that's inevitable. Blaming design decisions for people burning themselves out, or losing interest in the game, is nothing short of whining.

    Refute my points, or leave, but don't pontificate and diminutize the posts of other players who disagree with your stance.
    Refute what points? That if I show people enough forums posts about how stupid they are for burning themselves out they'll take it easy and come back? Everyone's already made the points to how and why we should fix it but I can recite the 5 best ones once again if you like. But still we have to contend with people like you victim blaming and white knighting for no other reason than apparently Blizzard can do no wrong. It wouldn't affect you or anybody else in the slightest if they left everything in place and gave people decent alternatives to the busywork shitfest they call non-raid character progression. At this point it only reads as spite.

    Our 25 is only surviving because it's the top alliance 25 on the server and able to attract applicants. The rest of the 25s have stalled or split to 10s. Our applicants these days tend to come in chunks of 3 or 4 from guilds who have completely collapsed. People cite sub numbers and handwave away problems but our raids live and die by what Blizzard does and right now we're barely treading water. Already some last raid nights of the week we just don't form even though we're recruiting like crazy. Death of our raid group almost appears to be an inevitability at this point and instead of recognition of the situation as untenable we have to endure this same shitfight over and over again simply because a segment of the community has to feel morally superior in some way or fashion.

    Raiding isn't as accessible, the requirements in skill and gear for seemingly moderate success has been hiked up dramatically compared to earlier tiers and there's no decent way for you to progress past 480 without getting yourself involved in the tangled interplay of dailies, overpriced crafted epics and a successful pug raid if you're lucky. It's killing us. But it's ok. You'll get a great birds eye view of the collapse from up there.

  20. #380
    Coins have been very good to me. If Elder Charms didn't exist, I would say they wouldn't feel mandatory. But since the coins can be used for heroic raiding, yeah I do need them and I can never outgrow them outside of building a huge stockpile.

    The rep gear didn't feel mandatory at all, it's just the coins that did. My alt Mage has raided some normal modes for 5 weeks and hasn't needed to buy anything from VP. He got it all from raiding normals or LFR.

    If the 'championing' system was active at the beginning of MoP, I think a lot of players would feel like they weren't mandatory, but it wouldn't convince everyone. Definitely not me because of the coin aspect.

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