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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Let's take http://www.wowhead.com/item=89887, drop chance according to wowhead 7%
    For every one to get at least 1 Robe they would need to kill the Sha 65 times EACH.
    That's 65 weeks or a full year
    Some times there are more than one player who needs it in a raid, that only increases the amount of kills needed.
    Now look what vendors got!
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=89434
    Yeah 7 ilvls lower - but hey at least you can get it in a "week" (as people are boasting here how easy rep grind is).
    See, now you are doing it again. You just can't treat independent events like that.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    It's these people - the players not quite at the cutting edge of raid progression - who made the loudest noise because they felt the biggest burnout. As you said, the HC raiders making progress quickly went past needing rep for the VP gear and the more "casual" players could take their time unlocking the rep and currency for the VP gear, but the guys sandwiched in between who did raid but didn't have the progression which invalidated the 489 gear as an upgrade choice felt as if they had to go and go the dailys on top of their raiding progression . You will get no argument from me that the dailys were not "mandatory" but at the same time the new, flexible approach to gear progression that Blizzard offerred us this xpac clearly failed for a large sub-section of players.
    Even normal mode raiders(being able to kill 1 heroic boss after a month of it being out is still normal mode imo) could easily progress without dailies. I got into a ragtag group about week 2-3 of MoP in mostly blues and we cleared a decent bit of MSV normal so claiming that it's HC raiders that can ignore dailies is wrong. The only people complaining about dailies are the people who don't even raid normal mode which they have no reason to complain since dailies are their main source of content. They don't need more gear to progress in raids so I really don't see why they are complaining. My lock is way behind on gear now and I could easily just jump into raids.

  3. #483
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    See, now you are doing it again. You just can't treat independent events like that.
    Like what? Don't waste thread space.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    Really sick of seeing this argument. The fact is, if you don't do dailies to unlock valor gear, you get gear locked and your character progression comes to a grinding halt.

    Let's take dungeons for example. The highest ilvl you can obtain off dungeons is 463. Then, you're left to grind LFR MSV for *months* (unless the rng gods just lay a golden brick on you) to reach 470 to queue for the remaining LFR raids.

    So, as a result, you're looking at grinding for PvP gear and/or spending 20-35k (sever prices may vary) for BoE pieces to fill in the slots you need as just acquiring the Sha boots and Klaxxi neck aren't going to cut it.

    Blizzard acknowledged this because the gear bottleneck must be an obvious eyesore from their overall player participation data.
    I'm having a lot of problems getting my alts up to ilvl without doing dalies. That alone makes rep and valor grinding feel mandatory.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Like what? Don't waste thread space.
    You are using independent event probabilities wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Let's take http://www.wowhead.com/item=89887, drop chance according to wowhead 7%
    For every one to get at least 1 Robe they would need to kill the Sha 65 times EACH.
    That's 65 weeks or a full year
    This is not how it works. 7% means just that, 7% chance each kill, independent from all other kills. The 7% doesn't say ANYTHING about how many kills you will need to get it.
    On the other hand, the chance of NOT having gotten it in 10 kills is 48%, in 20 kills it's 23%, and in 65 kills it's 0.9%
    So no, you are not guaranteed to get it after X kills, but it gets more and more unlikely as X goes up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Some times there are more than one player who needs it in a raid, that only increases the amount of kills needed.
    Yeah, I didn't get my T1 gloves until after I had full T2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Now look what vendors got!
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=89434
    Yeah 7 ilvls lower - but hey at least you can get it in a "week" (as people are boasting here how easy rep grind is).
    Valor cap says you can't.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Did I ever say I was content with it?
    Or did you perhaps miss the dozen of posts where I mentioned I REFUSED to do dailies because I hate them.

    The difference between 'forced' and 'feeling forced' is that when it just feels forced to some people you:
    A) Have people who don't feel it's forced.
    B) Can change their opinion and explain why it's not forced.

    I love that they changed the system.
    But that doesn't change anything about the fact that it was not forced.
    I don't believe that I made any mention of your happiness in regards to daily quests so I am not sure what your previous posts mentioning that you refuse to do them has do with anything. This is slightly off topic but I have, often, seen you claim that others have said something they have not and then attack them for something completely unrelated to their post. Do you behave like this because you get so angry that you simply do not read people's posts or is it because you are unable to put your point across and need to twist the argument in your favour?

    I realise that I am wasting my time because you appear to be unable to deal with the prospect of Blizzard being wrong and you appear to have a fundamental lack of understanding how the customer/company relationship works. Arguing whether something is forced or feels forced is nonsense and idiotic. It might not have been Blizzard's intention for dailies to feel forced however from the customer who feels this way's point of view that is irrelevant.

    In basic terms as a company if you have a product/service that people want/enjoy they will pay for it, if you don't they won't. There is no third option of provide something people don't like and then explain to them why they are wrong.

    It is not a fact that dailies were not forced, that is your opinion, the fact is many felt they were and many of them will have left the game a lot of them for good.

  7. #487
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    You are using independent event probabilities wrong.
    Nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    This is not how it works. 7% means just that, 7% chance each kill, independent from all other kills. The 7% doesn't say ANYTHING about how many kills you will need to get it.
    Hohoho, but one can calculate how many kills it may take using binomial distribution.
    For "at least 1" case it's 65, that is n=65 (P = 0.99). With a high chance (0.9+) on getting 2.
    That means that everyone is likely to have this robe in 65 weeks. EVERYONE who needs it.
    Some will get it on week 1, others on week 65. Few won't at all. On average majority of people will get it around week 40. Which is too long too.
    It's still not 100% guarantee, but my point was about TIME not guarantees.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    On the other hand, the chance of NOT having gotten it in 10 kills is 48%, in 20 kills it's 23%, and in 65 kills it's 0.9%
    Exactly, closing in on 65th kill you are likely to get one with a 1% chance to the contrary, which can happen still.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    So no, you are not guaranteed to get it after X kills, but it gets more and more unlikely as X goes up.
    No one said anything about guarantees - my argument was about TIME and Valor Gear

    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Valor cap says you can't.
    That's irrelevant, I know you ca't get to revered with Golden lotus in a week. Not to mention have enough VP to buy the item.
    But Terrace wasn't available right away and people had time to farm enough VP and enough rep, and it took them less than ~65 weeks to get a chest.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Nope.

    Hohoho, but one can calculate how many kills it may take using binomial distribution.
    For "at least 1" case it's 65, that is n=65 (P = 0.99). With a high chance (0.9+) on getting 2.
    That means that everyone is likely to have this robe in 65 weeks. EVERYONE who needs it.
    Some will get it on week 1, others on week 65. Few won't at all. On average majority of people will get it around week 40. Which is too long too.
    It's still not 100% guarantee, but my point was about TIME not guarantees.

    Exactly, closing in on 65th kill you are likely to get one with a 1% chance to the contrary, which can happen still.

    No one said anything about guarantees - my argument was about TIME and Valor Gear


    That's irrelevant, I know you ca't get to revered with Golden lotus in a week. Not to mention have enough VP to buy the item.
    But Terrace wasn't available right away and people had time to farm enough VP and enough rep, and it took them less than ~65 weeks to get a chest.
    And none of this makes valor gear mandatory.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  9. #489
    I am Murloc! Terahertz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    You just gave a few different examples that do not go with your argument. You say if you don't do the dailies you get progression locked. But you can farm LFR for gear (doesn't take months), buy gear off the AH or make the epics yourself, some heroics drop epics, Sha drops and Klaxxi neck do help no matter what you think. These are all gear you can get without doing a single daily.
    You're a bit naïve, aren't you?

    I'm pretty sure EVERYBODY who does PvE does LFR without a doubt. Which takes about 1 to 3 hours depending on luck. But you won't see a drop everytime you do LFR, because it's RNG = not a good way of relying on gearing up.

    Sha is also extremely RNG. Out of the 10~ sha's on two different characters I've only had TWO tier drops. Gloves for my monk and legs for my druid. Which is, yet again not a reliable way of gearing up because it's RNG.

    Buying gear off of the AH/making epics yourself REQUIRES YOU TO DO DAILIES. You NEED spirits of harmony from your farm which is a sort of daily activity. They also drop from mobs = mostly dailies. Making the money to even AFFORD epics from the AH requires you to either do proffessions or rely from gold income FROM DAILIES.

    Heroic drops are yet again not a reliable way of gearing up. I've done many heroics on my druid to get an ilvl 463 trinket, which took me about 3-4 days of grinding heroics. And I'm not even starting about my other items I got from heroics. Sure, it's a nice boost when you're lucky, but it's not an extremely reliable way of gearing up. Besides, the gear only goes up to ilvl 463.

    Also, doesn't the klaxxi necklance require you to do dailies since you need the reputation...?

    No matter what you say about dailies not being "mandatory", they are. They at least feel like they're mandatory in order to gear up reliably.

    I myself was lucky I had a shitton of time to play with, so I managed to get every reputation to exalted and get all of the mounts from them, but that doesn't mean I didn't felt obligated to do them. I missed one day of dailies and I already felt like I was behind everybody, which isn't really healthy for a player to feel like in a game IMO.

    Oh, and I forgot about the stupid coins for bonus loot rolls. That DEFINATELY made dailies feel mandatory. I mean, 3 extra chances on loot is HUGE. So don't tell me they didn't feel mandatory.

    OT: I'm not sure what the 5.2 dailies will be like, but I heard you had a choice between PvE and PvP dailies, right? If so, that would be awesome, but I'm still wondering how many dailies there will be.

  10. #490
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    And none of this makes valor gear mandatory.
    Nothing is mandatory in this game even the subscription. See how little sense your claim makes?
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Attsey View Post
    Maybe the "dumb masses" have taught Blizzard the meaning of the word optional in respect of the subscription fee.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Huh? Care to explain that..?
    Because at the moment it doesn't make any sense.
    He's probably referring to how, a little over 3 months after the release of the newest expansion, WoW Subscriptions were down about several hundred thousand.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Nothing is mandatory in this game even the subscription. See how little sense your claim makes?
    Actually, if you want to play the (full) game the subscription is mandatory.
    If you want to raid you can do so without valor gear.

    The point is, there's a huge difference between feeling mandatory and being mandatory.
    Last edited by Idoru; 2013-03-04 at 01:50 PM.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
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  13. #493
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Actually, if you want to play the (full) game the subscription is mandatory.
    No it is not. My wants are not needs. Therefore not mandatory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    But if you want to raid you can do so without valor gear.
    I can raid without it, but I will have difficulties in progress area. Because I (and everybody else who ignore VP gear) will be hindering the entire raid.
    We won't be hitting DPS checks.
    Our tanks will be dying a lot due to lack of good gear on tanks AND on healers.
    We are not Paragon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    The point is, there's a huge difference between feeling mandatory and being mandatory.
    Only in academic sense.
    In reality, if it feels mandatory - it is mandatory. I already paid my sub. So if to enjoy the rest of the game I have to do awful dailies - these dailies are mandatory as there's no refund and I want to play the rest of the game.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-03-04 at 02:05 PM.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No it is not. My wants are not needs. Therefore not mandatory.

    I can raid without it, but I will have difficulties in progress area. Because I (and everybody else who ignore VP gear) will be hindering the entire raid.
    We won't be hitting DPS checks.
    Our tanks will be dying a lot due to lack of good gear on tanks AND on healers.
    We are not Paragon.

    Only in academic sense.
    In reality, if it feels mandatory - it is mandatory. I already paid my sub. So if to enjoy the rest of the game I have to do awful dailies - these dailies are mandatory as there's no refund and I want to play the rest of the game.
    I'm pretty sure Blizzard, at some point, stated that normal encounters weren't tuned for valor gear.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  15. #495
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    10 times 10% chance isn't a 100% guarantee that you will get it.
    But simple chance-calculations tell us that the majority of the people will have it within those 10 tries.
    If the chance is always the same (10%), how come you say the majority of people getting it increases within 10 tries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No, it has more drops, not higher drop chance.

  16. #496
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    I'm pretty sure Blizzard, at some point, stated that normal encounters weren't tuned for valor gear.
    Please. Can you clear MSV in 463 blues alone (ignoring all the drops in MSV)? No! So MSV was tuned with a mix of 463/489 gear - VP gear. Or full LFR gear.
    Heart Of Fear - go try it in 463 blues. It needs 489 gear either from MSV or VP vendors. Or full 483 LFR gear.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pebbleton View Post
    If the chance is always the same (10%), how come you say the majority of people getting it increases within 10 tries?
    Because the chance of you not getting it (on each kill) is 90%, and because "The probability of multiple independent events ALL occurring is the product of their individual probabilities."

    This means that in 2 kills you will have 0.9*0.9 = 0.81 (81%) chance of not getting it at all.
    And in 10 kills you will have 0.9^10 = 0.35 (35%) chance of not getting it at all.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 03:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Please. Can you clear MSV in 463 blues alone (ignoring all the drops in MSV)? No! So MSV was tuned with a mix of 463/489 gear - VP gear. Or full LFR gear.
    Heart Of Fear - go try it in 463 blues. It needs 489 gear either from MSV or VP vendors. Or full 483 LFR gear.
    Back in vanilla we called this progression. It was why we continued to clear MC after we started on BWL.
    Today you have valor gear as an alternative to bad drop rates.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  18. #498
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    It's not just that.
    You cannot clear MSV in 463-blues, he is right.
    But you can clear MSV with the gear that MSV drops.
    Which was my point.
    "You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist."
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  19. #499
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Back in vanilla we called this progression. It was why we continued to clear MC after we started on BWL.
    Today you have valor gear as an alternative to bad drop rates.
    Please, back in Vanila I had green pieces while raiding in AQ40. There were no meaningful progression, just different gear, since they had % instead of ratings back then - they couldn't make really better gear. Just a bit more base stats that's all. And the ring with 2% hit was BiS for Agi users til the coming of ratings though it dropped from Ragnaros.
    And half MC you had to use green FR gear.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 06:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    Which was my point.
    Your point doesn't include bad drops in MSV, which are easily replaced by VP gear.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  20. #500
    Herald of the Titans velde046's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klog View Post
    I noticed that they are finally acknowledging that dailies are too forced.
    That's not true, they said they agreed that it FELT forced, not that it actually was. Because it simply wasn't.... there were plenty of ways to gear up, it would just take longer, but still it was/is possible.

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