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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    And I still don't get what that has to do with the forced nature of dailies? First of all it simple isn't true. Gear can and often will help you make up for soft execution. Second of all even if it's true it doesn't make a difference in so far as the forced nature of dailies are concern. Dailies are forced because the alternatives are POORER and not steady and or easily exhausted. It has ZERO to do with raiding although I definetely feel that progression raiders are hampered when they don't run dailies and IIRC Bashiok said in some blue post somewhere that that's part of the territory of being a progression raider. Doing all this extra crap outside the raid.
    If you're going to be a middle of the road progression raider and you are in a guild that wants everyone to do every last little thing then, sure, you are going to be "forced" to do dailies along with every other tiny thing that might improve your character.

    This notion that if you're not doing every last little thing, you're letting your team down, I suppose it's true, but when you're fighting for server #6 vs server #7 I don't know why you would give a shit.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    If you're going to be a middle of the road progression raider and you are in a guild that wants everyone to do every last little thing then, sure, you are going to be "forced" to do dailies along with every other tiny thing that might improve your character.

    This notion that if you're not doing every last little thing, you're letting your team down, I suppose it's true, but when you're fighting for server #6 vs server #7 I don't know why you would give a shit.
    By that logic then their'd be no point in gemming or enchanting. I mean it's all execution right?

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by puppypizza View Post
    - Not forced. You set that goal yourself. The game doesn't require you to have the best weapon. And by tomorrow, this will probably be reading "forced to do Heroic Council/Consorts for best fist weapon".
    That's 2 diffent things ... what I want and what I need.
    I don't need it, but If I want it, I have to do


    Quote Originally Posted by puppypizza View Post
    But if the alternative is so ridiculous that it makes the game not fun anymore, what's the point of playing at all?
    It depends what you defines 'Fun' ?

    Seem everyone have different definition of Fun.
    Some people just having fun doing LFR.
    Some having fun doing Arena.
    Some having fun killing low level opposite faction.

    If not having some purple epic gear making you 'not having fun' ... not much for me to say.

  4. #604
    It was calculated and deliberate. It was meant to keep you in the game as long as possible with as little content as possible to keep you distracted from other great games. It worked. Now, they can breathe a sigh of relief and say "whoops, dailies sure did suck, huh?" because WoW remains dominant for no particularly good reason other than inertia.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus_77 View Post

    If not having some purple epic gear making you 'not having fun' ... not much for me to say.
    Well clearly that purple gear is intrinsic to the fun factor. Otherwise people had dailies for years to keep themselves entertained. They only became "compelling" once they had gear behind them.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Deus_77 View Post
    That's 2 diffent things ... what I want and what I need.
    I don't need it, but If I want it, I have to do

    It depends what you defines 'Fun' ?

    Seem everyone have different definition of Fun.
    Some people just having fun doing LFR.
    Some having fun doing Arena.
    Some having fun killing low level opposite faction.

    If not having some purple epic gear making you 'not having fun' ... not much for me to say.
    I cannot speak for what makes the game "fun" to others. You seem to be misappropriating some need for gear as what makes it fun for me. I was actually one of those people "just having fun doing LFR". Problem is, you can't do all of LFR until you meet some arbitrary average item level number. Guess how you're supposed to overcome this limit? "Purple epic gear". So yeah, in a way, not having some purple epic gear did get in the way of me having fun.

    I don't need it (gear), but if I want it (LFR), I have to do it (get gear).
    Last edited by puppypizza; 2013-03-05 at 10:56 AM. Reason: double negative

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Their complaints aren't irrational no matter how you try and square it because the dailies very much are forced in any meaningful sense. now if you don't agree that's fine but that doesn't make them irrational. Their is so much wrong with the post and everything you post in general that it gives me a headache to read you. I would argue that the developers catering to YOUR wishes is irrational. In fact I would argue you are being irrational as a whole but hey man go complain to somebody about it.
    It's hard to admit you are wrong isn't it? God.

    If you say something is forced or mandatory when it isn't you are irrational. FEELING something is forced/mandatory is irrational.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idoru View Post
    So you are saying that I can't have nice stuff because it "forces" heroic raiders to do something they don't want to do, or even need to do ?

    I never said anything close to that, so don't put words in my mouth thank you. I'm pointing out, that they could have made Lesser Charms available from other things than just dailies, they didn't have to tie patterns to reputation (could have done like in Cata where a raid recipe cost x amount of mats). Could have buffed the amount of VP that bosses gives etc.

    Pretty much the changes we got in 5.2......

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-06 at 09:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    It's hard to admit you are wrong isn't it? God.

    If you say something is forced or mandatory when it isn't you are irrational. FEELING something is forced/mandatory is irrational.
    My guess is, that you've never raided at a more serious level. Cause any serious raider will disagree with you.

  9. #609
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    People were able to begin raiding T14 while doing a minimum of dailies and some managed it while doing no dailies whatsoever. People with an axe to grind repeated the thing about how dailies were mandatory over and over either knowing it really wasn't true or just being ignorant about things until it became common knowledge, even though it was incorrect. I'm not sure why it is that people somehow apparently lose most or all of their critical thinking capabilities when around the game but it seems to be something that happens on a regular basis. Shouting louder does not make it more true much like standing on your tiptoes doesn't help you to reach the high notes in The Star-Spangled Banner.

    There's nothing at all in the game that's either forced or mandatory. People do respond to peer pressure or want to keep up with the herd but that's on them and has little or nothing to do with what Blizzard does. GC and others have said this a number of times: the point was to give people a lot to do at the start of the expansion. As in a wide variety of choices. Not a lot to do in the sense that YOU MUST DO ALL OF THIS AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE OR YOU WILL LOSE!!!1!

    I have no idea why Blizzard did a mea culpa for this except to placate those who continue to complain about it and hopefully get them to shut up.

    Feelings are not the same thing as facts.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-03-06 at 08:33 AM.
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  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    It's hard to admit you are wrong isn't it? God.

    If you say something is forced or mandatory when it isn't you are irrational. FEELING something is forced/mandatory is irrational.
    I wonder what humans in general go by: Something being mandatory or something feeling mandatory? And especially what motivates gamers to do something in-game?

    If I may give an example:
    We all know we should wait for green-light when crossing a street. And we do when cars are passing by.
    But when there are no cars on that road, i never wait for the light to turn green, i just pass anyway.
    Now the red light makes waiting mandatory but still I'll cross it when there are no cars, cause it doesn't feel mandatory.

    I think gamers (and it goes for irl also) are motivated by feeling mandatory.... as it comes down to doing stuff something being mandatory and feeling mandatory is exactly the same.

    An nobody can tell me that Blizzard didn't knew that the players would feel that way and act that way. They designed the whole thing on this.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    It's hard to admit you are wrong isn't it? God.

    If you say something is forced or mandatory when it isn't you are irrational. FEELING something is forced/mandatory is irrational.
    No not really. I mean you've been backing the wrong horse in this daily debate all along and it's come to bite you in the asshole and you still won't admit it sucks but yea I'm the one who can't admit I'm wrong.

    It isn't irrational in the slightest especially when the developers insist that it's "compelling" content and the root definition of the word compelling contains the verb "to force" in it. It's hard to admit your wrong though I understand. YOu and the developers need to save some face so you simple say it "feels" that way.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-06 at 08:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    People were able to begin raiding T14 while doing a minimum of dailies and some managed it while doing no dailies whatsoever. People with an axe to grind repeated the thing about how dailies were mandatory over and over either knowing it really wasn't true or just being ignorant about things until it became common knowledge, even though it was incorrect. I'm not sure why it is that people somehow apparently lose most or all of their critical thinking capabilities when around the game but it seems to be something that happens on a regular basis. Shouting louder does not make it more true much like standing on your tiptoes doesn't help you to reach the high notes in The Star-Spangled Banner.

    There's nothing at all in the game that's either forced or mandatory. People do respond to peer pressure or want to keep up with the herd but that's on them and has little or nothing to do with what Blizzard does. GC and others have said this a number of times: the point was to give people a lot to do at the start of the expansion. As in a wide variety of choices. Not a lot to do in the sense that YOU MUST DO ALL OF THIS AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE OR YOU WILL LOSE!!!1!

    I have no idea why Blizzard did a mea culpa for this except to placate those who continue to complain about it and hopefully get them to shut up.

    Feelings are not the same thing as facts.
    Quick reality check here. Nothing in life is forced. Even if you live under some 3rd world dictatorship you can still chose to resist. Their are degrees of forced. Even if the developers just came out and admitted yea it's forced you have to do it you could still chose not to do it. So the criteria that it's an ABSOLUTE force is worthless. Now their are degrees of force, as force isn't a binary proposition. The Dailies and the gear behind them ARE TERRIBLE FORCED. That's all their is to it. They feel forced because they are indeed FORCED. You can't accept that, even when apparently the developers come out and abandon the cause and the god has left the shrine but you still worship.

    When the developers say the content was "compelling" what they really mean to say is that it's forced. They should really just be honest and say that but I'm not sure why they couldn't.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-06 at 08:37 AM.

  12. #612
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    It isn't irrational in the slightest especially when the developers insist that it's "compelling" content and the root definition of the word compelling contains the verb "to force" in it. It's hard to admit your wrong though I understand. YOu and the developers need to save some face so you simple say it "feels" that way.
    There are other definitions for compelling that nothing to do with 'force'. "That movie we saw the other night was very compelling. I've thought about it constantly since we saw it." Nothing forced there. "It's a very compelling book. You should read it." Sorry, not feeling forced.
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  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    There are other definitions for compelling that nothing to do with 'force'. "That movie we saw the other night was very compelling. I've thought about it constantly since we saw it."
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/compel

    All the definitions involve force or sway or coercion. Even your movie example involves coercion. The compelling film is coercing you to think about it. Now it's a degree thing I agree that's why it's funny to think about it like that for a movie but for gear and progression it clearly isn't strange in the slightest. The "compelling" content is actually really forced content. Period. Otherwise it wouldn't be compelling, apparently.

    Actually the developers also admit it's a problem to and not just here. The discussion about alts is something they readily admit as a problem. In their quest to create compelling content (forced grinds) they made it pretty shitty for alts. Well why would it be shitty for alts if it wasn't forced?

    They keep hinting around it and if you read their comments you get the feeling that their in a real bad spot. They know what's up and they knew what was up in the beta when people told them what a dumb ass idea it was. I guess next expansion they'll have some other idea? Who fucking knows. I'm not liking their whole go slow thing this expansion and everything that goes with it. My time is valuable and I'd like my time in game to also be rewarding. If their saying that just isn't the case well then they're going to lose alot of people. Hopefully that'll be enough to shock them out of this. It appears to be doing that already, but it's baby steps with Blizzard. That is until the next expansion.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-06 at 08:56 AM.

  14. #614
    Dailies where forced! There is nothing to it....... if people want to echo what blizzard is saying and defending that till the end... well that is up to them.

    'It does' vs 'it doesn't' doesn't make a compelling discussion!

    Leveling is not mandatory.
    Equipping new-found gear isn't mandatory.
    leveling professions isn't mandatory.
    gemming/enchanting isn't mandatory.
    Putting points in talents isn't mandatory.
    Using meeting stones to summon people isn't mandatory.
    Learning riding/flying skills aren't mandatory.
    Using ground/flying mounts isn't mandatory.
    Doing dungeons isn't mandatory.
    Doing raids isn't mandatory.
    Doing dailies isn't mandatory.

    Now that I come to think of it, NOTHING is really mandatory.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Synstir View Post
    'It does' vs 'it doesn't' doesn't make a compelling discussion!
    According to Blizzard logic that is EXACTLY a compelling decision because it is really a forced decision. It's a non decision. If it was an actual decision where you could say refuse it and not lose out on a damn thing then that wouldn't be a non decision. It would also not "compel" (force) enough of you to do the daily quest bullshit they want you to swallow.

    I mean I could chose to pay my taxes or be audited, fined and potentially jailed. That's a compelling decision. I mean for you people arguing in favor of this daily bullshit I still technically have a choice. I could go deal with Canada Revenue. And people have done that in the past as a means of protest and so forth. However if you asked people wether they had a choice in the matter or not most would simple say no. It's taxes you pay them. I guess their all irrational to.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-06 at 09:07 AM.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    No not really. I mean you've been backing the wrong horse in this daily debate all along and it's come to bite you in the asshole and you still won't admit it sucks but yea I'm the one who can't admit I'm wrong.

    It isn't irrational in the slightest especially when the developers insist that it's "compelling" content and the root definition of the word compelling contains the verb "to force" in it. It's hard to admit your wrong though I understand. YOu and the developers need to save some face so you simple say it "feels" that way.
    I guess there are degrees of feeling forced so we could say everything is forced or nothing is forced.
    I think it is pretty sad that you feel forced to do dailies and doing those dailies are so aweful for you that you need to make such a big deal about it. I have more respect for someones opinion when they say they feel forced when they actually have a hard decision to make.

    It's just your opinion that you think dailies are forced. I disagree because I think choosing between not doing dailies or doing dailies is not a big deal. When you can finish up your reputations in just a few weeks and you have other options I don't think there is as much force as you make it out to be.
    If Blizzard would say to you that you can only log in the game if you do dailies every day then I would agree there is too much force.

    There is also nothing wrong with forcing players to do something. Blizzard said dailies felt too forced. I don't understand why you are still discussing about this. Why do people need to keep spamming how forced and terrible dailies are while they are really just an option in the game and not a big deal. It looks more like they want things to be easier and it has nothing to do with feeling forced. It's just a more compelling argument.
    Last edited by Gilian; 2013-03-06 at 09:25 AM.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilian View Post
    I guess there are degrees of feeling forced so we could say everything is forced or nothing is forced.
    I think it is pretty sad that you feel forced to do dailies and doing those dailies are so aweful for you that you need to make such a big deal about it. I have more respect for someones opinion when they say they feel forced when they actually have a hard decision to make.

    It's just your opinion that you think dailies are forced. I disagree because I think choosing between not doing dailies or doing dailies is not a big deal. When you can finish up your reputations in just a few weeks and you have other options I don't think there is as much force as you make it out to be.
    If Blizzard would say to you that you can only log in the game if you do dailies every day then I would agree there is too much force.

    There is also nothing wrong with forcing players to do something. Blizzard said dailies felt too forced. I don't understand why you are still discussing about this. Why do people need to keep spamming how forced and terrible dailies are while they are really just an option in the game and not a big deal. It looks more like they want things to be easier and it has nothing to do with feeling forced. It's just a more compelling argument.
    I think it's pretty sad people feel forced to pay taxes and paying those taxes is so aweful for them that they need to make a huge deal about it and protest.

    You don't think choosing dailies or not choosing dailies is a big deal but I don't think choosing not to pay taxes is a big deal either. More people should not pay their taxes. When you can not pay your taxes and it takes no time to not pay them and the the option of paying your taxes is still there I don't see why you would feel forced.

    Their is also nothing wrong with forcing ppeople to pay taxes. The government says taxes feel to forced. I don't understand why you are still discussing about this? Why do people need to keep spamming about how forced they are to pay taxes and how terrible those taxes are really when it's just an option in life and not a deal.

    Now of course the above is absolutely fucking ludicrous but then again so is what your wrote by and large. Just like choosing not to pay your taxes, the alternatives to not doing dailies are FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR worse than doing the fucking dailies. If the alternatives were even remotely in the same ballpark then dailies would stop being compelling (forced). For me that wasn't the case, that's why I quit the game. Playing the game became a shitty alternative to not playing the game. Posting on forums and playing other games became a better alternative so I was COMPELLED to play other games and post on forums. As for why I'm still going on about this well you brought up how I was wrong slick. It turns out not so much.

    In ancient Rome their was a guy named Cato the censor. He was obsessed with Carthage and Hannibal as a threat to Rome. He would end every speech before the senate by saying "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam" which roughly translates to "And I will add another thing. Carthage must be destroyed!" (more or less). I feel that way about dailies. It colors everything in the game. And I will add another thing. The gear shouldn't require a rep!. If you did that then the alternatives to dailies start to look alot better. All still slow as fuck mind you but alot less I have to do dailies because that's where the reliable steady source of gear is from. It's not from LFR I'll tell you that much.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-06 at 09:52 AM.

  18. #618
    This issue is so overblown it's ridiculous. Now that a new tier is out, now that the expansion's been out for a few months, the dailies "issue" shouldn't even be an issue anymore.

  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    1. Heroic 5 man epic drops are 1% or less. Good luck grinding those.
    2. Your average player doesn't have 30k to dump on BoE epics (especially if they aren't doing dailies). They cannot craft their own because 99% of all the epic gear patterns are locked behind the rep.
    3. Sha boots and Klaxxi neck do help - but they WILL NOT get you to 470 with the rest of your gear being 463.
    4. PvE players generally don't want to put themselves through the hell of trying to grind PvP for gear.
    5. Grinding LFR MSV for the remaining pieces = 6 bags of fail PER WEEK. The drop rates from these bags is fairly abysmal as it's extremely common to go weeks without getting a single drop.

    So, yea, I guess you're right - if you want to put your character through progression hell - I guess you can skip the dailies and enjoy spending your playtime dealing with the options above.

    Are the forced? No. But they are strongly, strongly, strongly encouraged through the games current design.

    This is a 100% correct any counter argument is flawed.
    Quiting the game is an option though.

  20. #620
    I think the people saying dailies aren't mandatory but option will keep saying this untill Blizzard says otherwise!
    So what's the point discussing this whole topic, we've had a lot of topics on it already and nothing came out of it.

    Just wait untill the next xpac cause that is when Blizzard will admit that this design was a mistake.
    Then all defending Blizzard will take that statement and that will be the end of this whole mess.

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