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  1. #261
    The Lightbringer Humbugged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    False Equivalence. That's not my example.

    Arthas was never a major leader, he was under Uther's tutelage and was only a prince, he didn't have any authority to command say, the elves or the dwarves unlike Garrosh has as warchief.

    Moreover, of course the race of the guy that screwed up is always going to support one of their own succeeding him, that's not what I'm arguing.

    I'm arguing -everyone else-, the trolls, the tauren would likely not support another orc.
    Orcs have shown exceptional leadership skills in the past, skills the Trolls and Tauren owe their lives too. If one bad apple caused strife and was quickly dispatched, why should the Orcs never be trusted again? Thrall can no longer be trusted by the Trolls or Tauren? Saurfang? Nazgrim?

    Why would anybody trust Lor'Themar Theron then? By your logic, Kael'Thas should of doomed his people from ever leading the Horde. He was, after all, the King of Quel'Thalas.
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  2. #262
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    Orcs have shown exceptional leadership skills in the past, skills the Trolls and Tauren owe their lives too. If one bad apple caused strife and was quickly dispatched, why should the Orcs never be trusted again? Thrall can no longer be trusted by the Trolls or Tauren? Saurfang? Nazgrim?
    Who is talking about forever? The Orcs in general screwed up badly here and should be mistrusted for some time.

    Why would anybody trust Lor'Themar Theron then? By your logic, Kael'Thas should of doomed his people from ever leading the Horde. He was, after all, the King of Quel'Thalas.

    Lor'themar shouldn't be warchief, I agree because he puts his people above the rest of the horde, that much is certain. Still the main difference here is , the vast majority of his people rose against him, the moment they realized what he had done and was going to do. The orcs on the other hand seem to embrace it all, except for a few dissidents.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-03-05 at 04:42 PM.
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  3. #263
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    Orcs have shown exceptional leadership skills in the past, skills the Trolls and Tauren owe their lives too. If one bad apple caused strife and was quickly dispatched, why should the Orcs never be trusted again? Thrall can no longer be trusted by the Trolls or Tauren? Saurfang? Nazgrim?

    Why would anybody trust Lor'Themar Theron then? By your logic, Kael'Thas should of doomed his people from ever leading the Horde. He was, after all, the King of Quel'Thalas.
    Why is everyone putting words in my mouth? I'm not saying the orcs should never be trusted again, and this isn't quickly dispatched, this is several years of war.

    Which is why I don't personally think it'll be Lor'themar, but I don't think it'll be an orc either.
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  4. #264
    The Lightbringer Humbugged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Who is talking about forever? The Orcs in general screwed up badly here and should be mistrusted for some time.




    Lor'themar shouldn't be warchief, I agree because he puts his people above the rest of the horde, that much is certain. StilltThe main difference is here, the vast majority of his people rose against him, the moment they realized what he had done and was going to do. The orcs on the other hand seem to embrace it all, except for a few dissidents.
    You refer to Orcs like they have a hivemind though. The Kor'Kron embrace Garrosh, because they were hired by Garrosh, to do Garrosh's bidding, for Garrosh. The Orcs didn't screw up, Garrosh screwed up.
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  5. #265
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    You refer to Orcs like they have a hivemind though. The Kor'Kron embrace Garrosh, because they were hired by Garrosh, to do Garrosh's bidding, for Garrosh. The Orcs didn't screw up, Garrosh screwed up.
    His people go along willingly, whenever we meet grunts in the field they enjoy what they do. It is described in books, that most orcs follow Garrosh's new vision of the future and unless that changes the orcs are as trustworthy as the forsaken.
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  6. #266
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humbugged View Post
    You refer to Orcs like they have a hivemind though. The Kor'Kron embrace Garrosh, because they were hired by Garrosh, to do Garrosh's bidding, for Garrosh. The Orcs didn't screw up, Garrosh screwed up.
    It's not just the kor'kron though, a lot of orcs have supported Garrosh and relatively few have opposed him ( and the Kor'kron weren't hired they're the warchief's honor guard).

    No one's saying the orcs are a hivemind, but after Garrosh, and the broad support he got, and the way a lot of the orcs have treated members of other races, it's unlikely they'd be comfortable following an orc in the immediate aftermath.

    The trolls had a bunch of orc subjugators all over their islands for example.
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  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Why is everyone putting words in my mouth? I'm not saying the orcs should never be trusted again, and this isn't quickly dispatched, this is several years of war.

    Which is why I don't personally think it'll be Lor'themar, but I don't think it'll be an orc either.
    what your saying is orcs shouldn't trust themselves because of what one orc did, and so should put there faith in someone else to lead them.

    And this isn't putting words in your mouth, this is simplifying what your saying.

  8. #268
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    what your saying is orcs shouldn't trust themselves because of what one orc did, and so should put there faith in someone else to lead them.

    And this isn't putting words in your mouth, this is simplifying what your saying.
    Bunk! I'm talking about the other races not supporting a Warchief that's an orc in the aftermath of Garrosh's reign. The orcs would still have an individual 'orc' leader but he wouldn't be warchief and wouldn't have authority over the trolls or tauren.
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  9. #269
    I still think it has to be Vol'Jinn. Especially with his new model, he's as bestial as it comes and the other faction leaders like him. I also think he's great, but if it ends up being Lorthemar, at least the guy is way cooler than the other blood elves.

    BTW, anyone else still wonder why Garrosh still orders us around like dogs? Last time I checked, I gave my allegiance to Basic Campfire instead of that clown

    Seriously though, I'm starting to see a lot of parallels between Garrosh and Kael'thas. I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to ally the Thunder King or something wild
    Last edited by topitopi; 2013-03-05 at 04:50 PM.

  10. #270
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    what your saying is orcs shouldn't trust themselves because of what one orc did, and so should put there faith in someone else to lead them.
    .
    No they shouldn't, they should think about what they are doing and come to the conclusion if he crosses a certain line we will end him, but as it seems right now the orcs are more than willing to do what they do.
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  11. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by topitopi View Post
    I still think it has to be Vol'Jinn. Especially with his new model, he's as bestial as it comes and the other faction leaders like him. I also think he's great, but if it ends up being Lorthemar, at least the guy is way cooler than the other blood elves.

    BTW, anyone else still wonder why Garrosh still orders us around like dogs? Last time I checked, I gave my allegiance to Basic Campfire instead of that clown

    Seriously though, I'm starting to see a lot of parallels between Garrosh and Kael'thas. I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to ally the Thunder King or something wild
    He's probably going to bring the 7th sha back to Kalimdor and poison the land once again.
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  12. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    No they shouldn't, they should think about what they are doing and come to the conclusion if he crosses a certain line we will end him, but as it seems right now the orcs are more than willing to do what they do.
    And how do you know the orcs don't realize this in the next patch?

    seriously, your basing this entire thing on conjecture. You have no idea whats going to happen in the up coming plot, how the orcs will change, if they reflect on whats happened.

  13. #273
    I can see this going either way, the pro being a lot of people can see him doing good for the horde in so many ways and finally getting a good amount of face time, who knows people will probably come around to the idea after him being in charge for awhile.

    On the other hand he is a Blood elf, I can all ready see the uproar if he does become the new warchief just because he is a Blood elf, except for that I can not think of any other reason why people would not want him as warchief, kind of silly really.

  14. #274
    Elemental Lord Combatbulter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    And how do you know the orcs don't realize this in the next patch?

    seriously, your basing this entire thing on conjecture. You have no idea whats going to happen in the up coming plot, how the orcs will change, if they reflect on whats happened.
    You did read the right now in my sentence didn't you? If the majority of the orcs rises against Garrosh it is fine, but if they don't they don't deserve to get the next warchief, simple as that.

    Quote Originally Posted by dejec1989 View Post
    I can see this going either way, the pro being a lot of people can see him doing good for the horde in so many ways and finally getting a good amount of face time, who knows people will probably come around to the idea after him being in charge for awhile.

    On the other hand he is a Blood elf, I can all ready see the uproar if he does become the new warchief just because he is a Blood elf, except for that I can not think of any other reason why people would not want him as warchief, kind of silly really.
    Theron most likely won't become Warchief, my money is on Vol'jin since he gets his own book it will most likely be the foundation for his ascension to power.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-03-05 at 05:02 PM.
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  15. #275
    I think that this is all going to lead up to a High Horde Council or something. Vol'jin, Baine, Lor'themar, Sylvanas and maybe Thrall (or Nazgrim, or Saurfang) running the Horde as a unit, each governing and representing their own race. Lor'themar's desire for independence for the Blood Elves and Sylvanas... being Sylvanas would go well with this sort of set up. I think the duties of running all of these passionate, very different races falling to one person is a little too much. Also, this would allow us to open the door to Sylvanas getting up to shady business without the Kor'kron overseeing her every move, leading to story developments down the road.

    In the event of an actual Warchief, I think Vol'jin might be the best bet. He'd be a reluctant leader who doesn't necessarily want the power given to him, which is perfect. He'd give the other factions much more independence, while actually bringing the Horde closer together under a leader who has almost given his life for the Horde itself to save it from Garrosh.

  16. #276
    I'd like to see Theron claim the crown and start a new Elven dynasty, become the real leader the blood elves need. Warchief? ...eh.

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  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    You did read the right now in my sentence didn't you? If the majority of the orcs rises against Garrosh it is fine, but if they don't they don't deserve to get the next warchief, simple as that.
    which again is pretty much conjecture. And you don't seem to be taking into account aspects of how it might go down. Orcs who are afraid to stand against there warchief? Orcs who would sooner side with a tyrant leader then fight alongside humans for what they did to him/her?
    Insinuating circumstances.

  18. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redmage View Post
    I'd like to see Theron claim the crown and start a new Elven dynasty, become the real leader the blood elves need. Warchief? ...eh.
    Would be nice, but unless something drastic happens, I doubt he will change his mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    which again is pretty much conjecture. And you don't seem to be taking into account aspects of how it might go down. Orcs who are afraid to stand against there warchief? Orcs who would sooner side with a tyrant leader then fight alongside humans for what they did to him/her?
    Insinuating circumstances.
    I am basing it on current lore and its indications, fact is there are still far more orcs supporting Garrosh, than there are those who resist him, even though it is hinted there are a few dissidents, who are being oppressed, so unless the lore changes drastically, which is always possible I don't see the orcs being very trustworthy after this ordeal is over.

    And if they do side with the rebellion, they better teach their children properly about the cost of war, otherwise something like that will happen in the next 20-30 years.
    Last edited by Combatbulter; 2013-03-05 at 05:19 PM.
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  19. #279
    The Lightbringer Skytotem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    which again is pretty much conjecture. And you don't seem to be taking into account aspects of how it might go down. Orcs who are afraid to stand against there warchief? Orcs who would sooner side with a tyrant leader then fight alongside humans for what they did to him/her?
    Insinuating circumstances.
    Extenuating circumstances you mean, and those are hardly excuses for going along with Garrosh's discrimination against other races.
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  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skytotem View Post
    Extenuating circumstances you mean, and those are hardly excuses for going along with Garrosh's discrimination against other races.
    Some examples of over zealous orcs (oh because we haven't seen other races do THAT before *cough nelfs cough*) doing some bad shit and more then likely being cannon fodder for Garrosh in his raid doesn't give reason to dam the entire race.

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