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  1. #161
    Class design and identity has hit an all time in low in MoP and people still cling to the idea that a fourth spec would be good for the game? A fourth spec at best would further dilute any sort of identity that classes have at the moment and, at worst, would be tipping the table over for class blalance. Never mind the amount of resources this would take- remember, this week they said it was a choice of Townlong Steppes or class quests- the main reason this would never happen in my mind is that a new coat of paint on something old can never be as big of a hook as something completely new. I think Cataclysm proved that any expansion where resources were sinked into providing something new on top of something old is going to see the rest of the content suffer.

  2. #162
    I would not be surprised at all if this happened, and would speculate that Druids made it easy to test the waters with their 4 distinct rolls.

    My ideas for the 4th tree would be: (many have already been listed in this thread)

    DK - Necromancer DPS / Ranged Intel Plate
    Paladin - Shockadin finally becomes a reality - DPS / Ranged Intel Plate. Primary rotation is mostly instant casts with cooldowns, with cast time spells for fillers
    Warrior - Titans Grip and Single Minded Fury are separated into 2 trees.
    Shaman - Mail Wearing, shield equipping Tank. Would base loosely off Blood DK, with self heals making up for less armor
    Hunter - haven't fleshed this one out yet Tank doesn't feel quite right (pet should not be a raid main tank), and haven't figured out how to make hunter healer work.
    Rogue - Another agility leather using, dodge specializing tank.
    Druid - (already done)
    Monk - Ranged damage using spells instead of fists
    Mage - Arcane Healer
    Priest - Battlepriest. Would be similar to Shockadin, but with more hard casts and holy DoTs. Ranged DPS would damage with Holy instead of Shadow.
    Warlock - Demon Hunting Tank gets it's own tree and becomes an official tank.

  3. #163
    Scarab Lord UnifiedDivide's Avatar
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    I play a Hunter.
    Do you know why I play a Hunter?

    Because I get a pet and I can stand at a distance and do damage while my faithful companion tanks for me!
    Making MM (my preferred spec, until MoP at least) a petless spec would just irritate me. Would I go for the new 4th spec that lets me turn my pet into a full on tank? Hell no! Pets are not meant to be raid tanks, it's just silly. I'm more likely to just play SV or not play my Hunter at all if either of those options happened. Bad enough I play SV now when I've hated it since Wrath...

    Making Paladins and Death Knights ranged?! Are you insane?! DK at a veeeeeeeery long stretch might work, depending on what you do with them. As for Paladins, the only ranged thing they should be able to do is heal. And they do. As open-minded as I usually am, ranged Paladin DPS is ridiculous.

    And what's the deal with getting all the clothies to tank?! Don't tell me about Warlocks being Demon Hunters either. Demon Hunter abilities are already covered by about 3 classes so it's pointless having a DH class/spec unless you're going to take spells away from those 3 other classes.

    4th specs for every class is just a waste, imo.
    In no way, shape or form, would 4th specs be a major feature of an expansion. If I saw 4th specs highlighted as a super feature in the BlizzCon trailer for the next expansion, I would just laugh at the ridiculousness of it! It would get a note in the patch notes. Nothing more.
    Last edited by UnifiedDivide; 2013-03-03 at 02:12 PM.

    Sometimes updated...

  4. #164
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    I can name you 1 reason which makes all of your 5 reasons obsolate.

    10 new specs are equivalent to 3 1/3 new classes. Which would increase the balance "work" Blizzard "tries" to do every so often.
    Ive already shown how this isn't the case. I will concede that adding 4th specs for each class may be more work than adding one new class. However, it definitely isn't the equivalent of adding 3.5 new classes.

    It is more likely that we'll see a new class than a 4th spec for every existing class. And even if you post another useless thread how you dont see DH fitting into WoW, it is the -go for- class when the Burning Legion returns.
    A new class was just introduced in MoP, and Blizzard is concerned about its representation. I highly doubt you're going to see a new class in the next expansion.

  5. #165
    Fourth spec is one of those things along with Demon Hunter's were people wildly speculate that they will be implemented in the next expansion. Hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    One of the reasons I doubt they'll do it. Plus not every class really has enough potential for a 4th spec. People only suggest it because they want Shaman tanking and Warlock tanking.
    Exactly, and adding a 4th spec to every class is like adding 3 new classes ( 10 more specs). There are a lot of classes where I just don´t see what they would bring to that 4th spec.. There is just so much overlap already between classes. I would rather they skip an expansion, then come back in 3 years with one more distinct class.

    And I don´t think ´we need more tanks´ is going to fly as a reason to allow warlock and shaman tanking. ´tanking´ is basically a class, if you don´t like tanking, then it doesn´t matter if they have 4 or 10 tanking specs, people aren´t going to do it.

  7. #167
    To the OP. They can't even balance the specs that are in game at the moment properly. It would be even more cluster F of flavor of the month clubs. I do think they should explore more options for a COUPLE of the classes. Such as
    ~Bring back blood dk dps
    ~Explore a tanking option for shamans
    ~Explore tanking option for Rogues
    ~A possible necromancer spec for DKs that would use plate INT gear and caster rings etc. This would be more realistic because H pally are the only class that has a item made just for them. Plate INT
    ~Delete monks and pandas and pokemon and rebuild the talent system. There are always going to be cookie cutter specs but not having any choice in what we play or even the ability to mix it up is just lame.

    Rift talent system is fun.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    I can honestly say that coming up with any of the four classes in my sig was a lot harder than devising new specs for each class in the game. In fact the latter was pretty darn easy, because the current classes already have established themes, abilities, and lore behind them.
    This is because you're coming up with ideas on lore and not balancing an MMO. You're skipping over fundamentals of gameplay design to make your idea work. You can list 500 reasons why 4th spec could exist, but it still doesn't make it a good idea.

    Good luck balancing 10 healing specs and 10 tanking specs while keeping every classes' identity and providing unique game mechanics.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-03-03 at 02:52 PM.

  9. #169
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azrile View Post

    And I don´t think ´we need more tanks´ is going to fly as a reason to allow warlock and shaman tanking. ´tanking´ is basically a class, if you don´t like tanking, then it doesn´t matter if they have 4 or 10 tanking specs, people aren´t going to do it.
    I disagree. I only tank now because of the Monk. Their style of tanking appeals to me where the tanking style of other classes simply doesn't. If you like the class, you're more apt to like the tanking provided by that class.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 03:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    This is because you're coming up with ideas on lore and not balancing an MMO. You're skipping over fundamentals of gameplay design to make your idea work. You can list 500 reasons why 4th spec could exist, but it still doesn't make it a good idea.

    Good luck balancing 10 healing specs and 10 tanking specs while keeping every classes' identity and providing unique game mechanics.
    Where in the world are you getting 10 healing and 10 tanking specs from?

    Currently in the game we have Brewmasters, Guardians, Blood DKs, Protection Warriors, and Prot Paladins.

    That's 5 tanking specs. The only new tanks I could see would be Shaman and Warlocks. That would bring it up to 7 tanking specs. If you bring Rogues into the equation that is 8 tanking specs, not 10.

    Currently in the game we have Mistweavers, Resto Druids, Resto Shaman, Discipline Priests, Holy Priests, and Holy Paladins.

    That's 6 healing specs currently. I could only see them adding Mage healing and Hunter healing. That would bring the total to 8. Again, not 10 specs.

    As for the idea that a class loses its identity because it has a new role to fill; That is a completely bogus argument. The 4th spec should be a natural expansion of the class' original concept. Which is why (again) coming up with a 4th spec is quite a bit easier than coming up with an entirely new class.

    For example, Earth-based Shaman tanking goes entirely towards reinforcing the Shaman class identity. Mages healing through Time magic does the same thing. You need to show how adding a 4th spec to the existing classes muddles their identity in any way, shape, or form.

  10. #170
    Lets break it down then.

    Shaman Tanking - While you may be able to fit this in a lore sense with Earth magic, you still don't account for the basic fact that there is no mail tanking gear. Gear stats don't work the same for just using Enhancement gear either, since this was the fundamental problem for Feral druids using DPS gear for Tanking. It only partially works, but you need ideal stats through gear. New gear needs to be made, meaning niches such as Shaman Tanks steers the game back to the problems that the game has clearly been moving away from.

    Class Identity problems exist for class/spec combinations that don't properly represent a class. Shamans and Earth magic might work for survival, but when you think of a Shaman, you don't think of a Tank. It's not part of the class identity, and they're not represented in such in both gameplay and lore. They're melee fighters, they're spell casters, they're healers. The same problem exists for Mages when you begin throwing in Time as a source for healing magic. Mages are going to be joining the ranks of Druids, Shamans, Priests, Paladins and Monks. It doesn't make much sense when you look at WoW's classes as a whole and see how well defined they are. Even when they brought Paladins to the Horde, Shamans to the Alliance and opened up the new Class/Race combinations, class identity was retained in every form. This idea changes many things that have been established from the very beginning, and does a lot to undo the work they have put into the game to make each class easy to distinguish.

    --
    You mention where I got 10 healing and 10 tanking specs from? Read your original post, "The End of Pure Classes". Since you gave tanking to Shamans, I would then assume you would allow something like tanking Priests or healing DK's if a good enough lore reason was there to back it up. 10 new specs, 5 tanking 5 healing added to the current 5 and 5 = 10 and 10. You never really state what classes get what spec, so I can only assume you'd want to normalize the ratio of DPS/Tanks/Healers in the game to promote player distribution.

    The 4th spec idea may have its merits, but game design problems aren't solved by hopes and wishes.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-03-03 at 04:25 PM.

  11. #171
    Actually I recall seeing goblins as the least played race, with 3,5%, and Pandaren at 6%, although pandaren are both horde and alliance though, but still there are more Pandarens running around than goblins

  12. #172
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Lets break it down then.

    Shaman Tanking - While you may be able to fit this in a lore sense with Earth magic, you still don't account for the basic fact that there is no mail tanking gear. Gear stats don't work the same for just using Enhancement gear either, since this was the fundamental problem for Feral druids using DPS gear for Tanking. It only partially works, but you need ideal stats through gear. New gear needs to be made, meaning niches such as Shaman Tanks steers the game back to the problems that the game has clearly been moving away from.
    Currently in MoP Monks and Druids use the same gear for tanking that they do for DPS. My Monk for example is able to switch from DPS to Tanking without changing gear. Gemming and Enchanting aside. I see no reason Shaman tanks couldn't use the same gear as their DPS counterparts.

    Class Identity problems exist for class/spec combinations that don't properly represent a class. Shamans and Earth magic might work for survival, but when you think of a Shaman, you don't think of a Tank. It's not part of their class identity, and they're not represented in such in both gameplay and lore. They're melee fighters, they're spell casters, they're healers. The same problem exists for Mages when you begin throwing in Time as a source for healing magic. Mages are going to be joining the ranks of Druids, Shamans, Priests, Paladins and Monks. It doesn't make much sense when you look at WoW's classes as a whole and see how well defined they are. Even when they brought Paladins to the Horde, Shamans to the Alliance and opened up the new Class/Race combinations, class identity was retained in every form. This idea changes many things that have been established from the very beginning, and does a lot to undo the work they have put into the game to make each class easy to distinguish between.
    Your argument makes no sense. In Shaman lore the Earth element is the element of protection and strength. What does that sound like? Furthermore, look at the types of totems that come from the Earth element. You have Stone Bulwark Totem, a Shield. You have Tremor Totem, a totem that protects you from fears. The Earth Elemental totem tanks for you. Then there's Rockbiter which is the Earth imbue that just happens to work like a tanking stance. So there is a lore basis for Shaman tanking.

    The reason they're not represented in gameplay is because there's only 3 specs and there's 4 elements, and because Blizzard abandoned Shaman tanking in early Vanilla and BC.

    As for Mages, they can currently heal in WoW via Time magic. Basing a spec around Mage healing would merely be an expansion on a concept that already exists in the game.

    And you mention where I got 10 healing and 10 tanking specs from? Read your original post, "The End of Pure Classes". You left out the Rogue, which I would assume you would give either a Tanking or Healing role. On top of that, since you gave tanking to Shamans, I would then assume you would allow something like tanking Priests or healing DK's if a good enough lore reason was there to back it up.

    The 4th spec idea may have its merits, but game design problems aren't solved by hopes and wishes.
    Do a recount. I included Rogues, Warlocks, and Shaman, and there's still only 8 proposed tanking specs.

    Priests or DKs would more than likely get DPS specs since they're already hybrids.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-03-03 at 04:26 PM.

  13. #173
    If Blizzard intended Shamans to be tanks, they would have forgoed either Elemental or Enhancement in favour of a Tanking spec. Keep in mind that in Vanilla this class was the Horde counterpart to the Paladin, a class that fulfilled all 3 specs. They could have made Shamans the thematic mirror of a Paladin. They didn't.

    Every class has survival mechanics. Every survival mechanic is themed to their appropriate class. Survival mechanics exist because PVP exists. Shamans having survival totems doesn't have anything to do with tanking, it has everything to do with surviving in PVP. Your argument is similar to saying Warlocks should be able to heal because they can transfer life to their pets and they can siphon life through their abilities. These are thematic survival an utility mechanics, simply that and nothing more.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-03-03 at 04:44 PM.

  14. #174
    Stood in the Fire Malkazam's Avatar
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    Sure.. very useful for a rogue , an hunter , a mage..

    stupid idea is stupid
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  15. #175
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    If Blizzard intended Shamans to be tanks, they would have forgoed either Elemental or Enhancement in favour of a Tanking spec. Keep in mind that in Vanilla this class was the Horde counterpart to the Paladin, a class that fulfilled all 3 specs. They could have made Shamans the thematic mirror of a Paladin. They didn't.
    Which is irrelevant to the argument you made earlier. Again, there is a lore and gameplay basis for Shaman tanks. We're not talking about Blizzard's past decisions, we're talking about how classes can maintain their uniqueness and flavor when you expand their class roles.

    Every class has survival mechanics. Every survival mechanic is themed to their appropriate class. Survival mechanics exist because PVP exists. Shamans having survival totems doesn't have anything to do with tanking, it has everything to do with surviving in PVP. Your argument is similar to saying Warlocks should be able to heal because they can transfer life to their pets and they can siphon life through their abilities. These are thematic survival an utility mechanics, simply that and nothing more.
    Its only nothing more because that's the present game design. You do understand that games evolve and change don't you? There was a point in WoW history where "pures" couldn't heal at all, and had to use first aid to heal themselves after each encounter. Now every pure has the ability to heal themselves, or provide some form of group utility.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragedaug View Post
    I would not be surprised at all if this happened, and would speculate that Druids made it easy to test the waters with their 4 distinct rolls.

    My ideas for the 4th tree would be: (many have already been listed in this thread)

    DK - Necromancer DPS / Ranged Intel Plate
    Paladin - Shockadin finally becomes a reality - DPS / Ranged Intel Plate. Primary rotation is mostly instant casts with cooldowns, with cast time spells for fillers
    Warrior - Titans Grip and Single Minded Fury are separated into 2 trees.
    Shaman - Mail Wearing, shield equipping Tank. Would base loosely off Blood DK, with self heals making up for less armor
    Hunter - haven't fleshed this one out yet Tank doesn't feel quite right (pet should not be a raid main tank), and haven't figured out how to make hunter healer work.
    Rogue - Another agility leather using, dodge specializing tank.
    Druid - (already done)
    Monk - Ranged damage using spells instead of fists
    Mage - Arcane Healer
    Priest - Battlepriest. Would be similar to Shockadin, but with more hard casts and holy DoTs. Ranged DPS would damage with Holy instead of Shadow.
    Warlock - Demon Hunting Tank gets it's own tree and becomes an official tank.
    so...everyone but the warrior gets a new tree? thats gonna go over like pork chops at a bar mitvah....

  17. #177
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ehrenpanzer View Post
    so...everyone but the warrior gets a new tree? thats gonna go over like pork chops at a bar mitvah....
    For warriors I would recommend Blademasters or Spellbreakers

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkazam View Post
    Sure.. very useful for a rogue , an hunter , a mage..

    stupid idea is stupid
    Great contribution.

    Death Knights: Necromancer or Rune

    Hunters: Ranger: perhaps even add pets that have healing abilities? I see slugs, moths, and worms as possible candidates there. Also reworking one of the specs to be petless would be good for the identity of a hunter. They don't always need pets.

    Mages: Time. Basically a healing/support spec that utilizes Time magic. This is by far my favorite for any spec to be added in game. The whole idea of time magic to heal makes me giddy.

    Monks: We already have 3 of the 4 celestials being followed, having Chi-Ji being followed is just logical as a range class.

    Paladins: Crusader. Shockadins have been thought of for years, just logical to move there.

    Priests: I've always had my mind set on either psionics or a vampiric spec, moving shadow priests even farther in the direction of the dark. We already have Holy -> Disc -> Shadow, just seems logical to have 2 holy and 2 shadow.

    Rogues: Swashbuckler spec. The king of avoidance, tanking in it's most avoidance form... all about taking brushing off damage and avoiding.

    Shaman: Earth Warden. Shaman 2H or 1h+Shield tanking spec that uses the Earth element. Logical

    Warlock: Demon Hunters, I don't see this being it. Though I do see Demonology turning into the tanking spec and warlocks getting another type of spec.

    Warriors: I'd rather see another tank spec with 2 weapons or 1 big one.

  19. #179
    This topic is something I've actually considered for a long time also.. It would be much easier to just add a few new specs than an entire class. Not that everybody really needs a 4th but I agree a few would benefit. I could see Mage, Hunter, and Warlocks getting one for sure. Other classes would be a possibility, maybe shaman/rogue tanks..


    Quote Originally Posted by dokhidamo View Post
    1 reason why it won't be.


    I dare you to find a non-DPS spec for mages. Seeing as they all just DPS as frost anyway.
    Blood Mage for heals

    Battle Mage for tank
    Last edited by Jaundiced; 2013-03-03 at 05:26 PM.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Ive already shown how this isn't the case. I will concede that adding 4th specs for each class may be more work than adding one new class. However, it definitely isn't the equivalent of adding 3.5 new classes.
    Sorry that people get tired reading your made up BS, what you'll keep repeating all over the pages of this thread until the last person gives up stating the obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    A new class was just introduced in MoP, and Blizzard is concerned about its representation. I highly doubt you're going to see a new class in the next expansion.
    Clearly, like the DK had low representation at the beginning of Wo... oh wait.

    Monks are under representated, because they arent balanced... DKs got "balanced" in Cataclysm.
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

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