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  1. #1

    MoP: are we fighting for the wrong team?

    With patch 5.2 coming closer and closer it was a good idea to peek into the Pandaria lore even more.

    Basically, what we know is: Mogu were created by Titans to battle an Old God (possibly the one Mantid are worshipping), after fulfilling their mission they were abandoned and clueless what to do. The Mogu clans fought each other without any sense or reason, until Lei Shen decided to look for the source of their existance. He found out they were titanic creations, and with this knowledge and his personal skills he was able to subdue a Titan/Watcher (who the hell knows, Ra-Den) and channel his powers, becoming powerfull emperor. He also learned the secrets of the flesh-shaping and utilized it to create slaves to build his empire.

    Now wait.

    As far as I'm concerned there are 2 races that are created by the Mogu: Saurok (by flesh-shaping some lizards) and Grummle (by flesh-shaping some troggs). The rest of Pandarian races were already there: Mantid were the enemy of Mogu, Yaungol were the Tauren who just hunted around, Jinyu were the evolved Murlocs, Hozen were... well, a bad joke. But it is said that Mogu had three races to serve them. Saurok, Grummle, and Pandaren.

    What do we know about the Pandaren, then? Well, they were slaves of the Mogu. After Lei Shens death they managed to start a rebellion and break free, removing the element of cheap labor from Mogu culture and pretty much stopping their reign. Wait a second, what do we know about the Pandaren BEFORE that? Pretty much nothing.

    So, the thing is: Pandaren are a Mogu creation as well. Just like they flesh-shaped lizards to create Saurok, they did this to some pandas and we all see the resoults. Pandaren were not enslaved - it was a race that was created to be slaves. A bit like machines, created to serve, but somehow managing to regain free will and breaking their chains. Similiar to the Terminator series? A bit, I guess.

    Let's summ it up. A race of betrayed soldiers, who fought an incredible evil god, was left alone by their masters. After years of being helpless, one of them managed to find out about their origins and get the power they deserved. With this power they created their own servants from nearby lifestock. And those servants were used to build amazing temples, bridges, palaces, and a huge wall that separated the Mogu from their greatest enemies. And, somehow, the slaves revolved, crippling the empire and turning it to dust. Are we working for the rebelled machines to fight off the mankind?

    Of course, it's taking things too far. But some facts are quite interesting over here. Are the Mogu really evil, are Pandaren their creations, should we concentrate on helping them?

  2. #2
    Just because the Mogu were created as protectors, doesn't mean they still function that way.

  3. #3
    So you're saying it was okay for the Mogu to enslave the Pandaren if that's what they were created for? I disagree. Flesh-shaped creations or not, they aren't mindless automatons. They're clearly intelligent, free-willed individuals in the game, and didn't deserve the treatment they got from the Mogu.

  4. #4
    All good thoughts. I must meditate on these words.

  5. #5
    I saw a debate some time ago about this very topic. At the time, it was not known that Mogu were actually Titan creations, it was a suposition we know now is a fact. But under that same suposition, they came to this very conclusion... We are fighting for the wrong side.

    Meaning, everything the Mogu do, they do because it is the bidding of the Titans. When we oppose the Mogu, we oppose the Titans.

    I believe we will learn more when people get to Ra-den. Because it is strange that constructs would imprison a Watcher... Who knows, maybe the Mogu strayed from their path of servitude to the Titans at some point, or they simply started to malfunction.

    EDIT: Also, some more thoughts... Maybe the Titans are not as benevolent as we think they are. After all, they really would destroy the world had Algalon found corruption, not really caring about us.

  6. #6
    Legendary! Arrashi's Avatar
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    This actually is really interesting theory. Aside for the fact that "cute and kawaii" pandarens dont have anything against sending us to kill some hozen just because they need chilli peppers ( or whatever that cooking/tillers quest sends us for) I was always, interested by huge dualism in they society. On the one side we have shado-pan who are very disciplined removing almost all emotions from they lives, on the other we have average pandaren. Now if you take closer look, pandaren (at least of me) appear to be "incomplete". They live they lives a little like lunatics being limited by existence of sha and focusing almost entirely on creating themselves idillic reality, trying to ignore everything that don't fit into it.
    On a mogu part its very possible. Pandaren could very well be "advanced" version of saurok, free of initial mistakes, mogu fleshshapers made. Lei shen himself appears to be one of most resonable leaders in history of azeroth and it wouldnt be anything suprising if he demand more calm and easier to controll slaves. While i doubt a "giant pandaren conspiracy" exist and after Siege of orgrimmar, pandaren will launch invasion on kalimdor and EK, it honestly wouldnt suprise me if they were using us.

  7. #7
    First the Mogu didn't deserve anything....they took slaves and let them build statues.

    Mogu are evil, and those that say their is no black and white are those that usually try to justify evil actions.

  8. #8
    The Mogu got affected by the Curse, and because Master Ra (Ra-Den) fell silent, they lost their purpose and began fighting themselves and other races. They knew the entire time they were Titanic creations, but they were mortal now and the Titans were gone, why do they need to continue to serve them?

    When Lei Shen took Ra-Dens power (not known how he did so, and i doubt the legends Lei Shen spread about him ripping out Ra-Dens heart are true), he continued his own warped version of the order the titans had; The Mogu however know viewed themselves as the Masters (Titans), and thus felt as if the other races were obligated to serve their every will.

    Just because their Titan made, doesnt mean we need to serve them or that the Titans are evil. They are Titan creations that were cursed by the Old Gods. Mogu are now no more privilaged and by all means are no more 'right' than Vyrkul, Dwarves, etc.

    I mean, the Klaxxi ally with us, and they serve the Old Gods, so are they good? No. They are very, very evil, and are only using us because we are powerful and wanting to help them in their time of desperation. They would kill us otherwise. The work of the creation, especially after it has already been compromised, is in no way a reflection of the will of the creator.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Griffter View Post
    So you're saying it was okay for the Mogu to enslave the Pandaren if that's what they were created for? I disagree. Flesh-shaped creations or not, they aren't mindless automatons. They're clearly intelligent, free-willed individuals in the game, and didn't deserve the treatment they got from the Mogu.
    If we threat the Pandaren as the more advanced (as Arrashi said) version of Saurok, they simple appear as evolved version of their base animals. Saurok is still a lizard, but evolved to be bigger, more humanoidal and slightly more inteligent. So - this differs a little from what humans do. We took a wolf, taught him obedience and loyality, made him evolve into a dog. We took a boar, after some gerenrations it turned out to be a swine. The similiarities go on.

    The Mogu simply used magical enchancements of some sorts to accelerate the evolution process, so their animals would understand some commands like "take this rock over there". If we could do the same to dogs we totally would, because it would be pretty awesome. They guard our gates now - after flesh-shaping process they would be capable of doing many other things. Again, just an accelerated evolution process.

    Only one things seems to go wrong - Pandaren became too intelligent. Look at the Saurok - they rarely speak and pretty much live to eat and reproduce. I can clearly imagine them as perfect slaves to carry wood somewhere. But the Saurok would be too stupid to serve as more sophisticated workers, so the Pandaren had to be created. And they were simply created too smart.

  10. #10
    The Patient
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    Well, one of the new lore objects says the following:

    "But many mogu saw in Lei Shen the unity of purpose that had been lacking in the generations since their masters had fallen silent. They flocked around the Thunder King's banner. They eagerly did his bidding as he enslaved the other races, believing - as Lei Shen did - that the "lesser" races should serve the mogu, just as the mogu had once served their masters."

    I recall reading that the saurok and grummles were actually created after Lei Shen came to power. Lei Shen is said to have seen great potential in the Pandaren which makes me think that the Pandaren existed before the titans came to Azeroth. The pandaren may be a result of furbolgs evolving.

  11. #11
    Pit Lord Galbrei's Avatar
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    I might be wrong, but if I'm not mistakes one of the new lore scrolls show that the Pandaren were already here before the Mogu went rogue and decided they wanted to rule everything. The Pandaren were supposed to be the rulers of the continent according to Titan design (hence Pandaria, not "Moguraria"), but years after the Titans went silent the Mogu decided that panda was what was for dinner.

  12. #12
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    I would happily slaughter panda's for you.

  13. #13
    Old God Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Where in the game does it say the Mogu created the Pandaren?

  14. #14
    Bloodsail Admiral Pencil's Avatar
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    The Mantid aren't worshipping an Old God?

    I think we ought to run in, kill the Thunder King, steal his jewels and treasures and from then on turn our backs on Pandaria. I really can't be arsed with the Pandaren meddling with Eastern Kingdoms/Kalimdor affairs.
    pencil is cool

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by supersykke View Post
    Well, one of the new lore objects says the following:

    "But many mogu saw in Lei Shen the unity of purpose that had been lacking in the generations since their masters had fallen silent. They flocked around the Thunder King's banner. They eagerly did his bidding as he enslaved the other races, believing - as Lei Shen did - that the "lesser" races should serve the mogu, just as the mogu had once served their masters."

    I recall reading that the saurok and grummles were actually created after Lei Shen came to power. Lei Shen is said to have seen great potential in the Pandaren which makes me think that the Pandaren existed before the titans came to Azeroth. The pandaren may be a result of furbolgs evolving.
    They did.

    He feared the Pandaren because they were smart, so he had their leaders and scholars immediately killed following his becoming emperor.

    As for their Origin, the Pandaren either:
    Evolved from a Panda ancient.
    Evolved from a bear ancient, and once belonged to the same species as Furbolg.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Galbrei View Post
    I might be wrong, but if I'm not mistakes one of the new lore scrolls show that the Pandaren were already here before the Mogu went rogue and decided they wanted to rule everything. The Pandaren were supposed to be the rulers of the continent according to Titan design (hence Pandaria, not "Moguraria"), but years after the Titans went silent the Mogu decided that panda was what was for dinner.
    I'm pretty sure that the Great Sundering happened after the Pandaren broke free. Thus, since those lands were a separated continent now, they were named by their current leaders. And the lore scrolls (as well as the one that Supersykke found) may be written by the Pandaren themselves. In fact they are. If I was a creation made only to serve I would do my best to forget about that. Anyway, it was like 10000 years ago, the Pandaren probably don't really know their history, it started too long ago.

  17. #17
    The Patient NecroGangster's Avatar
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    We should actually conquer Pandaria and give it to the Jinyu, sinse it was they're empire before the Mogu overthrew them thousands of years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galbrei View Post
    ...The Pandaren were supposed to be the rulers of the continent according to Titan design (hence Pandaria, not "Moguraria")...
    Actually it was part of Kalimdor so I guess it was called Kalimdor. They must have named it Pandaria after the Pandaren Empire when it separated from the rest of the world 10000 years ago.

  18. #18
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pencil View Post
    The Mantid aren't worshipping an Old God?

    I think we ought to run in, kill the Thunder King, steal his jewels and treasures and from then on turn our backs on Pandaria.
    Isn't that what we do with every x-pac world? Who seems to care about business in Netherstorm, Zangarmarsh, Deepholm, Northrend et al anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroGangster View Post
    We should actually conquer Pandaria and give it to the Jinyu, sinse it was they're empire before the Mogu overthrew them thousands of years ago.

    Hehe..now replace "Pandaria" with "Australia" or "North America" and replace Jinyu with "Aboriginees" and "Native Americans" respectively... Not gonna happen.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  19. #19
    When you really think about it we're all thieves lol. We kill people and just take their stuff.

  20. #20
    The fact is that they're not machines, they're organic, imagine that you could create human clones for exemple and enslave them, i'm not sure that it would be really legit, even if Pandaren have (maybe) been created by Mogus, they can think, and they can also suffer, the fact that they created the pandarens don't make the mogu less culprits : they still enslaved a LIVING and THINKING thing.

    Also it seems that titans doesn't care about life (C.f Algalon), so that's probably the reason why the mogu doesn't attributes any valor in life, but, Kalimdor and Earthern Kingdoms races doesn't think like this, and that's pretty much why we chosed the pandaren camp, also, we encountered pandarens before mogus and got allied with them, it would be tricky to betray them and chose the mogu instead when we encounter them.

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