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  1. #101
    Pandaren Monk willtron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    I myself don't trust the titans at all, their actions and view on the universe are quite shady, who are they to decide who lives or dies, who are they to shape the universe as they see fit?

    Even if they show great sadness for the lives lost it does not change the fact that they exterminated a sentient species ,an entire world, like it was nothing.
    It is ruthless calculus and should only be used as absolutely last option.

    For me Titans are detached scientists running an experiment upon the universe and every undesirable result is destroyed and rebuild in a different manner.
    in the eyes of the titans we are nothing, they've probably created thousands of planets like azeroth for all we know. The fact we are able to defeat Algalon, a fail-safe program (PvE in a PvE game... PvEception yo!) shows we as player's are not insignificant.

    Plus Algalon at the end of the encounter shows some remorse for all the planets he has re-originated in the past, they are not without emotion, they just stiff upper lip it and get on with their job because it's what they're there to do

    edit: whoop, 1000 posts

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 01:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Titans first encountered the Old Gods on Azeroth, then imprisoned and put them to sleep. "An imprisoned, sleeping, or otherwise enfeebled god may still have an effect--conscious or not--on the god's surroundings." That means the Old Gods can only have influence on Azeroth. Those countless other worlds the Titans burned had nothing to do with the Old Gods. The Titans just didn't like them.

    The titans struggled against the Old Gods iirc.

    As far as I'm aware we haven't actually fought a fully functioning old god yet - but we have fought off certain sections; EYE of C'Thun, MAW of Yogg Saron.

    I apologise for falling back into the same old god discussion but are the old gods of azeroth actually parts of 1 big super old god? or are the old gods just centered around one sense - so to speak?

    Are they also located purely to azeroth or could we see the tendrils of corruption (literally!) in some far off distant planet?
    Last edited by willtron; 2013-03-03 at 01:07 PM.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    The titans struggled against the Old Gods iirc.

    As far as I'm aware we haven't actually fought a fully functioning old god yet - but we have fought off certain sections; EYE of C'Thun, MAW of Yogg Saron.

    I apologise to fall back into the same old god discussion but are the old gods of azeroth actually parts of 1 big super old god? or are the old gods just centered around one sense - so to speak?

    Are they also located purely to azeroth or could we see the tendrils of corruption (literally!) in some far off distant planet?
    They are only on Azeroth and each of the 5 is a separate entity. The Titans fought the Old Gods' full forms. All we've fought were pieces of them. They were mostly asleep/dampened when we fought them too.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-03-03 at 01:12 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  3. #103
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    in the eyes of the titans we are nothing, they've probably created thousands of planets like azeroth for all we know. The fact we are able to defeat Algalon, a fail-safe program (PvE in a PvE game... PvEception yo!) shows we as player's are not insignificant.

    Plus Algalon at the end of the encounter shows some remorse for all the planets he has re-originated in the past, they are not without emotion, they just stiff upper lip it and get on with their job because it's what they're there to do

    edit: whoop, 1000 posts
    "I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion... of empathy. I... have... felt... NOTHING! A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?
    Perhaps it is your imperfection that which grants you free will. That allows you to persevere against cosmically calculated odds. You prevailed where the Titans' own perfect creations have failed. "

    Thats from the Algalon encounter, the makers creates millions of planets, entire solar system, maybe galaxies... and they destroyed them in an blink of an eye, for them it seems everyone seems insignificant. Only the old gods proved a threat to them, which they overcame to an extent on Azeroth by banning them away.

    I think we fight on the right team, for the pandaren, jinyu, hozen and grummels. None of these creatures deserved the fate that the Mogu cast upon them in the first place, Ra - den fell silent and they went crazy, everyone who is not Mogu is a lesser being. There is no sign of affection for other live, it serves them or it dies, there is no grey zone. Even the mighty Zandalari empire was a lower ally of them, they even bow to Lei Shen and refer to him as a higher being, almost god like.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  4. #104
    Problem with the Mogus, not matter the original goal of their creation or what they did in the past, is that they are massively power hungry megalo-maniacs that are looking to enslave any other races by brute force or anihilate them. It would be pretty hard to "ally" with them, already suprising the Trolls did.

    As far as Pandaren origins, i think its more likely they are an evolution of the Furbolgs than a Mogu creation tbh.
    Last edited by Zergal; 2013-03-03 at 01:20 PM.

  5. #105
    Pandaren Monk willtron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    They are only on Azeroth and each of the 5 is a separate entity. The Titans fought the Old Gods' full forms. All we've fought were pieces of them. They were mostly asleep/dampened when we fought them too.
    Do we know why it was Azeroth specifically the Old Gods were on?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 01:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergal View Post
    Problem with the Mogus, not matter the original goal of their creation or what they did in the past, is that they are massively power hungry megalo-maniacs that are looking to enslave any other races by brute force or anihilate them. It would be pretty hard to "ally" with them, already suprising the Trolls did.
    Trolls had lost their home, plus they're cunning, they have a greater intention I suspect.
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  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    Do we know why it was Azeroth specifically the Old Gods were on?
    Because it was written that way. Azeroth is apparently the Rome of the universe.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    Do we know why it was Azeroth specifically the Old Gods were on?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 01:19 PM ----------



    Trolls had lost their home, plus they're cunning, they have a greater intention I suspect.
    I was mostly saying that from the Mogu's perspective, Mogus don't seem the kind to take pity of the others, any "alliances" feel it should be under the "be our slaves or die off" moto, yet doesn't seem the case with the Trolls. I haven't seen much of the Thunder Isle lore tough so maybe its already the case.

  8. #108
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    Do we know why it was Azeroth specifically the Old Gods were on?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 01:19 PM ----------



    Trolls had lost their home, plus they're cunning, they have a greater intention I suspect.
    The Zandalari did ally with the Mogu over 10.000 years ago, the bonds broke when the reign over pandaria ended but they remained in the lore of Pandaria as a brute Mogu ally. After the mists faded they try to forge these bonds again knowing what might the Mogu held in the past + Zandalari is sinking into the ocean. They always knew how mighty the Mogu are and did not want to face them in combat.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by KunkkaTheAdmiral View Post
    The Zandalari did ally with the Mogu over 10.000 years ago, the bonds broke when the reign over pandaria ended but they remained in the lore of Pandaria as a brute Mogu ally. After the mists faded they try to forge these bonds again knowing what might the Mogu held in the past + Zandalari is sinking into the ocean. They always knew how mighty the Mogu are and did not want to face them in combat.
    Thats another interesting fact. How come that when it comes to Mogu:

    -Zandalari Trolls, brutes and schemers, easily forged an alliance that survived over a 10000 years
    -Pandaren, calm and stoic - yet powerfull and experianced - somehow went from 0 to slave without any remarkable diplomatic approach?

    Guess that can count as another argument for "Pandaren were created by Mogu"

  10. #110
    Bloodsail Admiral KunkkaTheAdmiral's Avatar
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    Yes thats true, no one knows how exactly they did come to place, flesh shaped or evolved from furbolgs. I guess the Pandaren couldnt ally with the Mogu because of numbers and mindset, the pandaren where never depicted as strong or many. The Zandalari empire at that time was so huge, it covered all of Kalimdor way before the sundering happened, only the Mogu, a few other titan constructs and the rise of the nightelves actually occupied pieces of the land without the Zandalari in control.

    The Pandaren on the other hand where not even mentioned in the time before the sundering other then slaves, they come up and popped into slavery without any information what happened to them before.
    I actually think they evolved like the Jinyu from the magics of the Vale but maybe slower or not to such an huge extent that they could form a great empire.
    "Why do we fight? To protect home and family, to preserve balance and bring harmony. For my kind the true question is, what is worth fighting for?"

  11. #111
    I don't know if it's been said yet, but the mogu became bad once the curse of flesh afflicted them. I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the new lore pieces. It says that as their appearance changed so did their demeanor and they began to be savage and violent etc which led them to enslave the other inhabitants. The mogu would only be good if they were cured of the curse of flesh.

  12. #112
    I'd question the benevolent nature of the titans, myself.
    Each and every time I found something titan-related in Azeroth, that thing tried to kill me.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Okacz View Post
    Thats another interesting fact. How come that when it comes to Mogu:

    -Zandalari Trolls, brutes and schemers, easily forged an alliance that survived over a 10000 years
    -Pandaren, calm and stoic - yet powerfull and experianced - somehow went from 0 to slave without any remarkable diplomatic approach?

    Guess that can count as another argument for "Pandaren were created by Mogu"
    Wrong on both accounts. Zandalari are not just brutes. They are actually one of the greatest troll civilizations in all aspects both scholarly and in power(magic and strength). If you don't recall the Zandalari were the trolls previously in STV who aided each class with their ZG set where they embodied each type of archtype there(caster, brute, assassin etc). The Zandalari are both cunning and charismatic thus they were able to recruit all but the Darkspear and one other tribe to unify when the cataclysm occurred.

    Also, pandaren are pacifist by nature to a degree so a massive invasion of the mogu systematically would easilly enslave them piece by piece. And diplomacy? The mogu had gone rogue due to the curse of flesh. They would have answered diplomacy with a swift mace to the face. The pandaren didn't even think of uprising until long after the saurok had done so on multiple fronts.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    They are only on Azeroth and each of the 5 is a separate entity. The Titans fought the Old Gods' full forms. All we've fought were pieces of them. They were mostly asleep/dampened when we fought them too.
    It was confirmed in one of the developer interviews that the Titans battled and killed Old Gods outside of Azeroth. I'm not sure when it was, but it was fairly receive I believe. I don't have time to look it up, but its out there.

  15. #115
    Over 9000! Kaleredar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    I'll chock that up to bad writing. First, the war between the Old Gods using Faceless Ones and elemental lords didn't squish the Tauren/Trolls? Second, the war between the Old Gods and the Titans didn't squish the Tauren/Trolls? Third, the Titans molding the planet like clay during their terraforming didn't squish the Tauren/Trolls?
    They likely didn't wipe them out because they weren't actually the old god's enemy. That doesn't mean they didn't make day-to-day life a royal pain in the ass for the trolls.

    Blizzard has actually said that the Trolls existed on pre-titan Azeroth.


    What races were on Azeroth before the coming of the titans?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Besides the elementals, the only known sentient races on Azeroth when the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods were the trolls, the race known as "faceless ones," and the aqir. Due to the Old Gods' war against the titans, as well as the extensive terraforming that followed the war's conclusion, records of what races existed before even the Old Gods' arrival have likely been lost forever.
    Now, it's possible that they forgot the Tauren, or for some reason Brann was giving inaccurate information. But it's clear that the trolls existed.


    They didn't mind rape anything back then. They created the Faceless Ones and used their elemental lords. The insectoids were created by the Well of Eternity.
    They would mind rape just to mind rape. Same as why they fought one another: for the hell of doing it.

    "I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once. Yet all throughout, my own heart, devoid of emotion... of empathy. I... have... felt... NOTHING! A million, million lives wasted. Had they all held within them your tenacity? Had they all loved life as you do?"

    What about all these other planets they sterilized that didn't have the Old Gods? The Titans commit genocide against sentient beings across the universe on countless planets. They only like a certain kind of life, all other life forms are exterminated. They are space-Nazis.
    We don't know that those worlds didn't have old gods on them, and they may have been deemed "corrupted" by other things, like the Burning Legion.

    Algalon isn't the one who burns the planets. Algalon is just the appraiser who tells them which planets failed. It's the Titans who then come and sterilize the planets with the "Makers' flames".
    The halls of origination are the device that "destroys and remakes" Azeroth, not the titans themselves.

    Seeing as the old gods attempted to activate the origination device to some degree, the last thing they'd probably want is for the titans to come back and dish out another serving of hurt on them. If all the device did was summon the Titans, then the titans would likely make sure they finished the old gods off once and for all if they were just going to blow up Azeroth anyway.
    Last edited by Kaleredar; 2013-03-03 at 07:28 PM.
    "Do not look down, my friend. Even in the darkest of times, there is always hope... Hope for a better day, hope for a new dawn... Or just hope for a good breakfast. You start small, then see what you can get." ~ Covetous Shen
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    Kaleredar is right...
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  16. #116
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylf View Post
    I've seen that you are really hung up on this enslaving people=evil deal. Then I take it you think humans are evil for enslaving orcs. Orcs evil for enslaving humans. Trolls evil for enslaving goblins. Forsaken evil for enslaving everything.

    If you think the mogu are evil for enslaving two or three races on a small continent for a reason (fighting the mantid). How evil isn't the other races in the horde/alliance for murdering and pillageing eachother and especially other lesser races like furbolgs and wendigos. Take a good look at your character, he/she has caused so much harm and suffering to thousands upon thousands of different people. That's something I call evil.
    The humans enslaving the orcs was an evil act. Goblins weren't sentient when they were enslaved by the trolls (they became intelligent due to contact with kajamite ore during their enslavement), but continuing to enslave them after they achieved sentience was evil (similarly to how if machines became sentient, continuing to try and enslave them would be evil).

    That said, you're talking about the past. The humans aren't enslaving the orcs anymore. The trolls aren't enslaving the goblins. The mogu, on the other hand, are still actively capturing and enslaving people on Pandaria. The mogu aren't evil because they enslaved the saurok and the pandaren in the past--they're evil because they're still doing it now.

  17. #117
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Hozen were... well, a bad joke
    Oooka ooka dooka ooka!


    I quite enjoy the joke. Less on the nose then the pandas doing kung fu.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
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  18. #118
    I was saying from day 1, that we are helping the wrong guys.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post

    Aside from the naming of Kalimdor, the war Troll/Aqir war 16,000 years ago doesn't line up with it taking the Titans "many ages" to do their terraforming. An age is generally about 2000 years. "Many" is generally >6. If that war happened before the Titans ever set foot on Azeroth, that would mean the earliest they finished terraforming was about 4000 years ago? But that can't be right because the War of the Ancients happened 10,000 years ago, long after terraforming ended.
    "Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once." I think its safe to say that the titans operate outside of time as we know it. Ages to them could be a single heartbeat to us. I mean hell, they were able to give time travel to dragons, I'm pretty sure time works very differently for them than it does for us.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    They likely didn't wipe them out because they weren't actually the old god's enemy. That doesn't mean they didn't make day-to-day life a royal pain in the ass for the trolls.

    Blizzard has actually said that the Trolls existed on pre-titan Azeroth.



    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Besides the elementals, the only known sentient races on Azeroth when the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods were the trolls, the race known as "faceless ones," and the aqir. Due to the Old Gods' war against the titans, as well as the extensive terraforming that followed the war's conclusion, records of what races existed before even the Old Gods' arrival have likely been lost forever.
    Now, it's possible that they forgot the Tauren, or for some reason Brann was giving inaccurate information. But it's clear that the trolls existed.
    Yes, I know they said that. But it is inconsistent with what is known lore and in the game.

    Even within the game there is conflicting information on the Aqir. Specifically around the origin of the Qiraji. One source says they came from Aqir (created by the Old Gods before the Titans came) and another says they came from Silithid (created by the Well of Eternity, modified by the Old Gods).

    There are 2 time periods of Titan/Old Gods interactions. There's the 1st incident where the Titans came and fought the Old Gods themselves and their elemental lords/faceless ones. Then there's the time after or near the end of the terraforming process (which took many ages) where the Old Gods infected Titan creations with the curse of flesh.

    The quote you refer to is from the time period of this 2nd incident; when the Trolls had their war with the Aqir 16,000 years ago. http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Twin_Empires Specifically says the Aqir empire was trying to eradicate non-insect life from Kalimdor. This had to be after the Titan terraforming because they're the ones who created and named the continent of Kalimdor.

    Also, the war Troll/Aqir war happened 16,000 years ago. This doesn't line up with it taking the Titans "many ages" to do their terraforming. An "age" is generally about 2000 years. "Many" is generally >6. If that war happened before the Titans ever set foot on Azeroth, that would mean the earliest they finished terraforming was about 4000 years ago. But that can't be right because the War of the Ancients happened 10,000 years ago, long after terraforming ended.

    "As the Titans made their way across the primordial landscape, they encountered a number of hostile elemental beings."
    "With the elementals' departure, nature calmed, and the world settled into a peaceful harmony."
    "They shaped the worlds by raising mighty mountains and dredging out vast seas. They breathed skies and raging atmospheres into being."

    Azeroth was a "primordial landscape" before the Titan terraforming, it doesn't sound like the Azeroth was hospitable to complex organic life with the elements raging against each other. Especially when Azeroth needs the Titans to breath an atmosphere onto it. Because it took "many ages [while] the Titans moved and shaped the earth," what likely happened was that the Trolls/Tauren arose near the end of the Titans' terraforming process when the planet was habitable. Same with the proto-drakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    They would mind rape just to mind rape. Same as why they fought one another: for the hell of doing it.
    This mind raping isn't even a conscious act by the Old Gods. Remember, they were put to sleep. "An imprisoned, sleeping, or otherwise enfeebled god may still have an effect--conscious or not--on the god's surroundings."

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 12:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerion View Post
    "Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once." I think its safe to say that the titans operate outside of time as we know it. Ages to them could be a single heartbeat to us. I mean hell, they were able to give time travel to dragons, I'm pretty sure time works very differently for them than it does for us.
    Except much of the terraforming was done by Earthen and other Titan creations who don't have ludicrous speed.

    Either way, It still doesn't discount my other points on the matter:
    -Pre-Titan Azeroth is described as very inhospitable to life as we know it. Which is why the terraforming was necessary in the first place.
    -The Troll/Aqir war happened 16,000 years ago and had to have been after the terraforming because it took place on Kalimdor.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-03-03 at 08:56 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

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