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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    Making trash fun?

    World of warcraft is the only game i can think of where trash is as annoying as it is. And I thought pretty hard on the subject. Most games have a much higher trash-to-boss ratio than wow does anyway, and still manage to make the gameplay more engaging for trash.

    My theory is that warcraft's "fun" is almost directly tied to reward (sure, there are definite exceptions to this rule). The less reward there is, the less fun it will be perceived. The more reward, the more optimistically it will be viewed. There's not a huge difference in playstyle from tanking/healing/dpsing a boss than the trash that comes before it, but you generally feel more engaged into the boss.


    --


    That said, what if there was a third pve game currency below Justice Points (of course, Justice Points themselves would have to have there value increased slightly to make room for a less-valuable currency. But that's another conversation in and of itself.) that accumulated based on regular trash (or even quest mobs) kills. That would do a little in reducing the feeling of lateral non-progressive gameplay that makes trash feel so monotonous.

    Of course there would still be people who don't give a shit about the currency, just as people now don't give a shit about Justice Points. Unless you tie the third currency to some kind of fun rewards; transmog gear, pets, maybe mounts if collected in enough quantity, achievements, extra bag/bank slots, titles, etc. You give the currency absolutely no cap and allow hoarding and it suddenly feels more progressive. Old tier vendors could sell in the new currency instead of Justice or Honor points, and you could always purchase that currency with said justice or honor.



    Of course you could do the same with Justice points as they stand now. But the justice cap impedes upon the sense of accumulation, at least I would think.

    --

    any thoughts or ideas?
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  2. #2
    Moderator Sj's Avatar
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    Adding "mini-bosses" like we saw in ICC would be a good idea. It broke up the monotony of pack after pack of trash.

  3. #3
    I don't think it is because there is no reward, it is because most trash has no noticeable mechanics and when they are noticeable, they are more annoying than fun. I don't think another currency is needed, and if a reward was given for trash then I would prefer Blizzard to make the reward Justice Points and add extra things to spend Justice points on.

  4. #4
    Pit Lord
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    the only problem i see here is "WTB group for mob farming". people would game it to such way out of control proportions unless you add in some restrictions... then you are back to reward vs effort. finding the balance is the key.
    Last edited by Sinndra; 2013-03-02 at 06:42 PM.
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  5. #5
    Moderator Sj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dither9 View Post
    I don't think it is because there is no reward, it is because most trash has no noticeable mechanics and when they are noticeable, they are more annoying than fun. I don't think another currency is needed, and if a reward was given for trash then I would prefer Blizzard to make the reward Justice Points and add extra things to spend Justice points on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinndra View Post
    the only problem i see here is "WTB group for mob farming". people would game it to such way out of control proportions unless you add in some restrictions... then you are back reward vs effort. finding the balance is the key.
    I agree. The problem isn't so much that we get nothing for killing trash, it's that there's so much of it and it takes up a lot of time. There really just needs to be less trash. Add some more health or damage to them, or some interesting mechanics if there's a need to offset the quantity.

  6. #6
    Making a trash currency would be bad, unless they stopped trash re spawning and stopped players being able to reset instances, to re spawn trash after a clear, it would lead to farming, like we had with BoT and Firelands for BoE epics

    Mini boss like ICC was a nice distraction with a bit of lore, but after a few weeks it was just routine,

    Maybe adding a random spawn each week, that has a quest linked to it would be a good idea, like in the later days of icc, we had a quest inside the instance itself to kill a boss, or keep an add alive e.g. death whisper fight, this quest would spawn a mini boss or a elite trash pact to kill, maybe youd have to use the environment around you to kill it, or weaken it to kill it, each week it would be a different mini boss or trash pact, with 6 max, so that would be 6 weeks rotation

  7. #7
    Pit Lord Zeror's Avatar
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    I think trash can be fun if you add another challenge there. A time challenge. Defeat trash within a certain time and you can continue. If you fail the upcoming boss teleports or pushes your party many yards back and summons more troops to hold you out of his chamber. Can be a dps-check as well so you know if you got enough dps for the next boss.

    Or a sequence challenge. Kill specific mini-bosses in sequence A, makes you going into wing A first. Sequence B for wing B etc... Might be cool too.
    Last edited by Zeror; 2013-03-02 at 06:45 PM.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire RyokuchaMidori's Avatar
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    The best trash were in Trial of the Crusader obviously.

    Trash needs to be a bit harder maybe ? like in TBC ?

    For me (as a tank) trash became untolerable in Naxx(80), mostly because it was just an aoe fest with no strategy required at all.
    I also hate it when there are way too many trashes inbetween bosses, so less but better.

    I like the idea of mini boss too, actually the three drakes before Sartharion (the one you don't kill if you want to do Sarth3d) were good trash.
    Last edited by RyokuchaMidori; 2013-03-02 at 06:50 PM.
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  9. #9
    Would said changes apply to LFR as well? In LFR trash only drops greens. At least in normal and heroic you stand to gain epics and profession plans.

    Trash in LFR is exactly that, it's just mindless AOE for no reward. If you want to beef up normal/heroic mode stuff for better rewards sure, fine.
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  10. #10
    I know I didn't mind killing trash in TBC or ICC. I'm guessing that's because they gave reputation, which is something I miss from these raids.

  11. #11
    Trash became boring when Blizzard implemented their nerfing policy in 3.0. I'm afraid the OP is right, it'll have to be linked with rewards to make trash less annoying than a LFR speed bump.

  12. #12
    Fluffy Kitten Rivin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyokuchaMidori View Post
    Trash needs to be a bit harder maybe ? like in TBC ?
    The problem with harder trash, like the BC or early Cataclysm trash, is that CC becomes required. CC is boring, and it often causes problems.

    When I think of "interesting" trash, Well of Eternity is what comes to mind. It wasn't difficult, but there was enough variation in the mechanics of the pulls to keep it interesting. (At least as a tank--maybe less so for other roles.)

  13. #13
    Best trash was in ICC, easy to rape trash and some mini bosses that some of them drop some loot from time to time.

  14. #14
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    It's weird.. I loved TOC because there wasn't any trash. But I loved ICC because it seemed huge and because the AOE was kind of fun for me.
    What I'd like to see is either one big badass add like a general or something, or just a ton of infantry adds that we can aoe down. It'd be fun if
    it was either tons of AOE and huge numbers, or mini-bosses, no in-between.

  15. #15
    Stood in the Fire SaltLakeAtrocity's Avatar
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    I don't think "less trash" is the be-all and end-all answer. There's a fundamental problem if trash itself is boring and feels like just a 'block'. If trash was fun enough to 'farm' for vanity/transmog stuff (which is basically all JP are good for these days anyway), I don't see big issues with that?

    I don't see a way to make trash fun without the added effect of causing people to be somewhat likely to want to farm it. Quests and rare-packs are awesome ideas, but i dont think they'd work as stand alone ideas. The trash packs not tied to those quests would feel just as monotonous.

    Trash, to me, doesn't feel like you're progressing anywhere or moving forward. As much of it you can skip, the better. No incentive to pull extra packs. Nothing to show for your time whatsoever. I think that is the biggest issue with something tied to a game that's anchored so much by personal progression. You want to spend all you're time with the feeling you're getting stronger, in whatever field you value or define 'stronger' by, in some sense.
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  16. #16
    Legendary! TJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sj View Post
    Adding "mini-bosses" like we saw in ICC would be a good idea. It broke up the monotony of pack after pack of trash.
    Yeah, the trash in ICC was cool, to start with anyway Annoying for casters, though. I'm glad I played a Hunter.

  17. #17
    I am Murloc! Shampro's Avatar
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    Then you're whishes have been heard. The 5.2 raid has ''special mobs'' that are part of ''pop up quests'' while you are in the Raid, theres even Rare mobs in the Cave area of Throne. Also the Trash after Jin'rohk is a gunglet/survival with things that try to push you off edges. Theres a few more intresting and innovating pulls in the Raid.

    But all in all, Trash is honestly a necessity, the Raid doesn't feel good or ''huge'' without multiple enemies getting in your way to beat ''the boss in charge''. Its true that haveing a few more mechanics like the things I mentioned above make it better, but getting rid of it its honestly a terrible idea. Its actually part of the reason why I didnt like ToC or DS, it didnt feel threatning. And sadly, a big part of the community also just doesn't like anything that doesn't include a reward, its pretty freaking sad, but I guess its something that wont really change, and blizzard will not give you instant gratification for clearing mobs, it just wont happen. They can make it intresting for sure.
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  18. #18
    Immortal Granyala's Avatar
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    Trash always was and always will be a boring time sink.

    It's called "Trash" for a reason.

    The reason it exists is simple: it adds immersion. Would feel very wrong to go into an enemy stronghold unopposed. It would also feel very wrong if a boss just sits in an empty room.

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  19. #19
    Mechagnome bloodwulf's Avatar
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    I like the minibosses that was mentioned but adding any sort of currency to trash would just create trash farming groups. Hence why they no longer tie rep to raid trash. What we are likely to see is less trash or more significant types of trash (gives hints at boss mechanics or includes minibosses).
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivin View Post
    The problem with harder trash, like the BC or early Cataclysm trash, is that CC becomes required. CC is boring, and it often causes problems.

    When I think of "interesting" trash, Well of Eternity is what comes to mind. It wasn't difficult, but there was enough variation in the mechanics of the pulls to keep it interesting. (At least as a tank--maybe less so for other roles.)
    I remember when CC was the requisite for instances, even on trash pulls. Although I enjoy that instances go by much faster today (30 minutes for a Heroic Scholomance now as opposed to what could be an hour to 2 hours in the past), I do think that the "great" mages separated themselves from the merely average ones by being able to CC and damage with high efficiency. Made things seem less mindless as well.

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