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  1. #1

    How do you estimate/measure your expected Raid-DPS?

    Hi,

    we run 10m raid guild and I find it hard to estimate/measure expected raid dps. I have only gear and simcraft simulations that tell me "this guy should do 100k dps with minor movement" and my logs tell me always the difference (about 5%-10%). I find it hard to interpret this "movement variations" in simcraft. How do I know if my damage dealers are pushing to limit or if there is a lot of room improvement?

    Most common and very time consuming method for me is to find a similar equiped character and try to find logs for the same boss and try to compare both. After that I can see e.i more dot uptime or higher activity time, better cooldown usage.


    What is your way to be sure that your DPS is doing good job?

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Mehman's Avatar
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    Is the boss dead?
    If yes, the dps is doing fine
    If no, was it because of the enrage or something else (People dying to avoidable damage, healers not being able to keep up)?

    If enrage, they can improve
    If something else, remove that factor, then start over.


  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Danishpsycho's Avatar
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    I'd check Raidbots>Epeenbot http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/

    Although numbers don't always give you a perfect picture, this is pretty solid to meassure your output be it dps or hps imo.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehman View Post
    Is the boss dead?
    If yes, the dps is doing fine
    If no, was it because of the enrage or something else (People dying to avoidable damage, healers not being able to keep up)?
    this is pretty much the best way to do it, if your group is wiping before enrage something else is wrong, if you are consistently hitting enrage then you need to start looking at the numbers (if someone dies halfway through the fight..well bres so i guess two people lol...and you hit enrage, then it's still that people are dying)

    good way to judge on if people are dying from lack of heals is if healers are oom / looking at death logs(were they healed within 5-10 seconds of hitting the red line -in this example the red line would be the max amount of unavoidable damage expected, think crush on garalon)

    slow reaction times on healers can cause deaths even if their mana is fine, if everyone lives to enrage no one dies, then yes it's a dps issue.

    #take the longest attempts, cut it off where the first person dies, and factor in enrage timer vs total raid dps at that time if you are consistently wiping before enrages, it might just be people not used to mechanics.
    ##also 20% execute phase / heroism, counts for a lot so if you are less than 5% behind enrage it can add up at the end of the fight and make up for that damage (5% is just a number i threw in, different fights different %'s


    just another edit,

    if your group is hitting a wall on progression and people are dying, do a few attempts where people aren't trying to push dps,
    the main goal in that type(yes i know you will hit enrage) is for people to learn the pace of the fight / the dance as it were, without tunnelvisioning trying to push max damage,
    live to enrage once or twice, then start getting people to push dps again, and since they've practiced the dance, they will live longer.
    albeit this is harder to do on encounters with a low% phase change, but last phases are usually the easier mechanically (yes even queen dispells vs having to get in bubbles, aoe instead of raid damage when bubbles explode etc...elegon same thing really)

    and if your group needs to learn phase2 of a fight, pop hero to push to phase 2, yeah you won't have it at the end, but you are practicing p2, why do p1 the long way, and then get to p2 to wipe over and over, instead push to p2 super fast, and then when you are living through p2, save that hero

    and remember, next tier blizzard isn't doing many if any at all, dps checks.

    Tier 14 had a few too many hard DPS checks on Normal difficulty, so in Tier 15 you should beat Normal difficulty by mastering the mechanics, not having a certain amount of DPS.
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...st-Party-Comic
    from the dev interview

    sorry this was a bit long, hope i got what i was trying to say across lol
    Last edited by Christan; 2013-03-04 at 09:27 AM.
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  5. #5
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Simulationcraft is probably your best bet, followed by logs of guilds closest to your progression, follwed by napkin maths, followed by raidbots (real last resort here, fantastic tool but not for deciding what your dps should be)

    In simcraft, here are the following profiles and what they actually tell simcraft to simulate:

    Light movement
    Players (not boss) will have to move every 85 seconds for 7 seconds after the first 53 seconds of combat have begun, this stops 360 seconds into the fight.

    Heavy Movement
    Players (not boss) will have to move every 10 seconds for 4 seconds after the first 10 seconds of combat, this does not stop until boss is dead.

    Helter Skelter
    - Boss will cast something that needs to be interrupted every 30 seconds, 3 second cast, occurs after the first 15 seconds, interupts player casting
    - Players and pets will have to run every 30 seconds for 5 seconds
    - Raid gets stunned every 60 seconds for two seconds
    - Boss becomes invulnerable for 3 seconds every 120 seconds


    -------------


    You can set up your own situations on the override tab, just follow this documentation:
    https://code.google.com/p/simulation...iki/RaidEvents
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  6. #6
    Moderator Kerdoz's Avatar
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    I do not focus too much on DPS. Aslong as my guild manages to down the boss before enrage I am happy

  7. #7
    1) Can damage be padded on the encounter?
    2) Did you ask him to handle some mechanic that diminish too much dps?
    3) Is he very undergeared?
    4) Does your strategy makes raid dps low?

    If all the answers are no, you should expect a rank on the boss. Didnt rank, didnt pull his weight. How good the rank depends on what you expect for yoir guild.

  8. #8
    Raid dies because boss enrages > DPS needs to work harder.

    Othewise, DPS is fine.

  9. #9
    there is never enough dps, the best way to check dps performance is logs (have u ranked? good dps, haven't? bad dps)

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    first rule of raiding:
    beat mechanics to reach enrage timer (or come as close as possible to it).
    second rule of raiding:
    if enrage, try to improvise and maximise dps while still beating mechanics.

    yes I know, some mechanics itself have a certain dps breakpoint required to beat, just do the same for those mechanics as you do for the whole breakpoint. after all, it's not rocketscience.

  11. #11
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but I have to chime in here.

    Saying anything close to the following: "As long as the boss dies, dps is fine" is fundamentally wrong; it's no wonder I have to prep myself before I embark on an LFR run if this is such a common attitude.

    Think about what dps does, think about how every roll and action is dictated by dps, having only enough dps to just beat the boss is not fine, it's scrapping through and putting the rest of your raiders through hell. This, incidentally, makes it quite a selfish act.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I'm sorry, but I have to chime in here.

    Saying anything close to the following: "As long as the boss dies, dps is fine" is fundamentally wrong; it's no wonder I have to prep myself before I embark on an LFR run if this is such a common attitude.

    Think about what dps does, think about how every roll and action is dictated by dps, having only enough dps to just beat the boss is not fine, it's scrapping through and putting the rest of your raiders through hell. This, incidentally, makes it quite a selfish act.

    Have to agree with this. DPS to beat the enrage can create a kill, but higher DPS puts less stress on the healers and pushes through phases faster. It can mean the difference between having a healer OOM or having too many bad zones on the ground in a phase without much room to move.

  13. #13
    Herald of the Titans xebtria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamzz View Post
    Have to agree with this. DPS to beat the enrage can create a kill, but higher DPS puts less stress on the healers and pushes through phases faster. It can mean the difference between having a healer OOM or having too many bad zones on the ground in a phase without much room to move.
    yet trying to maximize dps before you can actually handle all the boss mechanics does not lead to a kill either.

    I'd say 99% of all wipes are not caused from not being able to handle the enrage (thus too slow dps). they are caused by someone screwing up some mechanic (sometimes even just bad luck with RNG), leading to a chain reaction, ultimately leading to the wipe.

  14. #14
    The problem is that some specs are very very gear-dependant and some specs are very very skill dependant. If I understand correctly, the original poster is asking how to decide if his dps players are playing well for their gear and spec, and if there are tools out there besides simcraft and the his (sounds tedious but effective) method of finding someone equally well-geared and comparing dps and rotations.

    I don't know, either. I "cyberstalk" certain people in a couple of guilds who are somewhat but not a lot more progressed than we are, and I note down when they change their stat weights and gemming and talent choices. If we have issues I'll download their logs and look at spell choices and absorbs. But it's manual work and I wouldn't do it for someone else.

    It would be neat if a tool existed that can take an input character's World of Logs and go find other people in equivalent gear who did better dps. And even that wouldn't account for gimmick fights and temporary buffs and a raid leader coming up with a strategy that plays to that character/player's strengths.

  15. #15
    using WOL will give a decent representation. check ranks on WOL and look at similar players.. ie.. a warrior with 500 ivll might be doing 150k on a boss where a warrior with 480 ilvl would proly do 70-90k... look at the most used attacks of the class in question and see why their dps is as high... is it gear? is it skill? did they have a job to do that would lower their dps? are they standing still and tunneling?
    did they die? if so when?
    knowing who is doing what will narrow down your list of questions.

  16. #16
    I can't understand this attitude that "dps only matters if you're wiping to enrage". Say you have one dps who is consistently 30% behind the rest, but you're still downing bosses. Eventually you'll get to an encounter where you're not able to keep carrying them, and you're faced with either trying to get them to improve (which is typically a long and frustrating progress with limited results - anyone who underperforms by that margin is unlikely to get much better quickly), trying to suddenly replace them, or keep bashing away until the rest of your raid is overgeared enough to compensate. Would it not be much simpler to identify the underperformer weeks earlier and get a decent replacement rather than allowing your progression to grind to a halt because of them?

    In addition, there's plenty of encounters where there are other dps checks other than the hard enrage. Sha - the quicker you kill platforms, the more dps you get on the adds, and so the boss dies faster as a result, which means fewer platforms to survive, fewer breaths to react to properly, etc etc. Dying to the hard enrage is not likely to happen. If you have higher raid dps, you give yourself fewer opportunities to fail at mechanics such as not running out for death blossom, and directly increase your likelihood of downing the encounter.

    Similarly with empress, if when learning the encounter your tanks frequently die on phase 2, the difference between 1 phase 2 and 2 phase 2s is huge, even though you can still easily make enrage with two phase 2s.

    Elegon, more sparks you kill, quicker last phase is, less chance for healers to go oom.

    Ambershaper, quicker monstrosity dies, the less opportunity there is for that guy who can never interrupt the explosion to wipe you.

    etc etc.

    More dps is never a bad thing as long as people aren't idiots about how they go about getting it.

  17. #17
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    It is actually fairly simple.

    The boss has X amount of health
    You have 10 players to kill it in Y amount of time.

    Your raid as a whole must pull x/y dps in order to accomplish this.

    If that number is 50k and someone is pulling 30k then at least two other players better be doing 60k. And this is to kill the boss right at enrage.





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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    It is actually fairly simple.

    The boss has X amount of health
    You have 10 players to kill it in Y amount of time.

    Your raid as a whole must pull x/y dps in order to accomplish this.

    If that number is 50k and someone is pulling 30k then at least two other players better be doing 60k. And this is to kill the boss right at enrage.
    But if one player's class is limited to 80% of another spec/class' output (due to class imbalance amongst all specs), how do you know who is slacking and who is doing their optimal numbers but are getting shafted by class balance?

    That's part of his question.

  19. #19
    I'm on the gear curve right now so I measure myself by how much other hunters are doing. I should be fairly close to top parses.

    Raid DPS you measure by looking at recent kills of whatever boss you are working on. This also helps you figure out what your DPS should be doing during the fight.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    But if one player's class is limited to 80% of another spec/class' output (due to class imbalance amongst all specs), how do you know who is slacking and who is doing their optimal numbers but are getting shafted by class balance?

    That's part of his question.
    And the other side, if someone is keeping pace with everyone else in the raid but their spec is currently overpowered, you're going to be in a world of hurt when they get nerfed.

    And if someone's class scales really well with gear and they're performing close to the top of their theoretical maximum, the raid as a whole would benefit if you funnel tier tokens/crafted items to them as a priority.

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