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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    That's ridiculous, do the US have no law that punishes failure to render assistance in an emergency? Here in Germany, being a nurse and not performing CPR when required, no matter what company policy says, would land you in the slammer for up to a year. And rightfully so I might add. What kind of person do you have to be to just idly stand by and outright deny even the requests of another pleading you to render help. She was specially trained to do this shit or so one should assume. This makes me glad not to be living there, to think you could be bleeding out and medical personnel are standing next to you saying "nah, don't feel like it today".
    Not breaking the sternum of an elderly person and thus not forcing them to die of drowning in their own blood is not a failure to render assistance.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Krawu View Post
    This makes me glad not to be living there, to think you could be bleeding out and medical personnel are standing next to you saying "nah, don't feel like it today".
    As long as you're willing to ignore the facts and the context of the issue for the purpose of confirming your prejudices against the US in general, then yeah, this makes total sense. The only people who will miss you here is the media sensationalists who thrive off of people like you who discard fact-based rational thought in favor of emotional reactions where facts are something you willfully ignore because they're obstacles to your outrage.

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    Not only that but her daughter thought it was satisfactory? Wow. I'd be flipping a crap if I knew someone could have saved my mother's life but didn't. Jeez.
    i would also be flipping out if someone refused cpr to a family member.
    the daughter is probably about to receive an inheritance

  4. #264
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prankstar View Post
    i would also be flipping out if someone refused cpr to a family member.
    the daughter is probably about to receive an inheritance
    Would kind of be your own fault for putting her in a place with that policy and signing a DNR in the first place. In all legal purposes, you would be the one to refuse it.

  5. #265
    Herald of the Titans Waaldo's Avatar
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    People need to understand what protocol means. If there is protocol, you follow it till every little fucking letter. Because if you break it, not only will you get sued for all the money you own, and not only will you lose your job, but you will lose your license. meaning you will NEVER be able to work in the medical field again. You think saving some random 80+ year old woman is worth this nurses lively hood? Not in this fucked up sue happy country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torethyr
    I thought doing the toothpaste-tube-squeeze and vigorous shake was the "traditional" way.

  6. #266
    They have that rule for lawsuit reasons.

    If they fail to do it correctly then several things can happen that can turn for the worst:
    - They could fail to do it properly and cause the victim to die... if done correctly they "might" have lived, so now it's their fault.
    - They could fail at it in a different way, but this time it involves too much pressure on the chest causing broken bones.... this can actually kill the victim (you're still technically "alive" even after you stop breathing because you're not brain dead yet)

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by prankstar View Post
    i would also be flipping out if someone refused cpr to a family member.
    If you would sign a DNR and then "be flipping out" when a nurse abided by it then you lack the competency to sign such an agreement, and to judge those who are involved in one.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Jeeze....imagine that. You'd rather let someone die than break the rules.
    you break those rules in a medical facility, and your job's forfeit, and you're LUCKY if you're not thrown in jail for assault because of it. my money's on a DNR, but the 911 op was uninformed of that fact. then some stupid publicist git got ahold of it and so continues the 24-hour news cycle.

  9. #269
    Well apparently the patient did NOT have a DNR order. See bottom of following link: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...ater-died.html

    It's hard to know what she would have wanted, but it seems like if someone does not have a DNR, the default should be to give them CPR.

  10. #270
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alyshira View Post
    Well this is interesting, apparently the patient did NOT have a DNR order. See bottom of following link: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...ater-died.html

    It's hard to know what she would have wanted, but morally it seems like if someone does not have a DNR, the default should be to give them CPR.
    That's nice. When it is an official and not a newspaper that relays this, I'll care. Or when an official denies that there was an equivalent legal document signed due to the policy of the home.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    That's nice. When it is an official and not a newspaper that relays this, I'll care. Or when an official denies that there was an equivalent legal document signed due to the policy of the home.
    Pretty sure it's illegal for a newspaper to flat-out lie. And that information is better than just guessing if she had a DNR or not.

  12. #272
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alyshira View Post
    Pretty sure it's illegal for a newspaper to flat-out lie. And that information is better than just guessing if she had a DNR or not.
    The newspaper doesn't have to lie; the newspaper only has to report on incomplete information.

    If there was not a DNR or equivalent legal form, the nurse/home will be prosecuted over it. Simple as that. Does anyone have an article that mentions this process happening?

  13. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by alyshira View Post
    Pretty sure it's illegal for a newspaper to flat-out lie. And that information is better than just guessing if she had a DNR or not.
    No, it's not. Even if it's not conscious lying, it's most likely misinformation that they are spreading.

    The only ones caring about this situation are the media. Neither the daughter nor the nursing home seem to be bothered.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryve View Post
    Then do everyone a favour and shut your mouth. CPR is not a magical guaranteed life saver. There's every possibility that had the nurse performed CPR, the woman would still have died before the ambulance arrived.

    Statistically it fails more than it succeeds, however obviously if you don't try, it certainly won't work.
    You missed the word "could".
    It's almost always the wrong argument to compare yourself to the highest DPS specs out there. "Middle of the pack" is actually where everyone is supposed to be. -Ghostcrawler
    DPS Tuning
    •Yes, this is a roller coaster. Our process is to try things out and iterate if we don't like them. If the churn offends you, just hang on for another week or two.

  15. #275
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamsterbom View Post
    You missed the word "could".
    Oh? Where exactly should the word "could" have been added?

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Jeeze....imagine that. You'd rather let someone die than break the rules.
    No offense, but there are plenty of factors to consider here, but mainly company policy.

    Did you ever think that the reason the policy exists is because this is a senior citizens nursing home? In other words, it's where people go to die. The creator of this policy may have created it so people don't have to suffer needlessly. Instead of dragging out their life hooked up to a machine, this policy allows time for the person to pass, ending the suffering they're in to be there in the first place. You might not like it, but the people that are in those facilities are there because they can no longer function on a day to day basis.

    Secondly, you're wanting this person to put their job on the line, all because it's the right thing to do. It's also the right thing to do to give starving people food, but you don't see grocery store workers handing out food to the hungry. You don't see companies giving out free coats to the homeless because they have to make money. You seem to think this person that did what the policy said was wrong in some way. By "doing the right thing" in your eyes, that person would have lost their job and probably their livelihood, all because you think it's the right thing to do.


    Personally, having experienced several family members suffering at the hands of doctors, I say right on the company for this policy. It's better to let people pass, then to make them suffer hooked up to a machine keeping them alive when they're in such a sad state. If only assisted suicide were legal, we'd have so many more options for people to keep their dignity and go out on their terms instead of forced by others to live a life filled with pain and struggle.

  17. #277
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Oh? Where exactly should the word "could" have been added?
    "Could still have died before the ambulance arrived."

    Whatever. People can be medically ignorant if they want.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Oh? Where exactly should the word "could" have been added?
    Read what he quoted.

    edit:I wasn't trying to correct what he was typing, but it looked like he didn't understand the person he quoted.

    Or maybe I'm the one that doesn't understand why he said, "Then do everyone a favour and shut your mouth. CPR is not a magical guaranteed life saver." ?
    Last edited by Exeris; 2013-03-04 at 05:39 AM.
    It's almost always the wrong argument to compare yourself to the highest DPS specs out there. "Middle of the pack" is actually where everyone is supposed to be. -Ghostcrawler
    DPS Tuning
    •Yes, this is a roller coaster. Our process is to try things out and iterate if we don't like them. If the churn offends you, just hang on for another week or two.

  19. #279
    The Lightbringer DEATHETERNAL's Avatar
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    If she had wanted CPR, she would not have signed papers stating that she agreed to the policy of not being given CPR. There really is nothing more to this case unless people are advocating for the totalitarian route of forced care.
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.
    Revelation 6:8

  20. #280
    I just want to make sure I understand this situation.

    1. The nurse followed procedure.
    2. The Nursing Home is not upset.
    3. The family of the deceased is not upset. (Note: The daughter is also a nurse and might have a bit more insight into the circumstances then, say, most of the people posting here.)
    4. The police apparently are not upset.

    So, just to be clear, no one of any importance is actually upset. And yet we have over 14 pages of arguments about morality and legality. All of which stem from a brief story that, in all likely hood, lacked the full details.

    Just so I'm clear that the bulk of this thread amounts to people trying to impose their own sense of "right and wrong" based off of partial information.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 12:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    If she had wanted CPR, she would not have signed papers stating that she agreed to the policy of not being given CPR. There really is nothing more to this case unless people are advocating for the totalitarian route of forced care.
    It sounds to me like we have a lot of bleeding-hearts trying to impose their own sense of morality here. Logic would dictate, as you and I have both pointed out, that the woman and her family knew about the policy. Logic would also dictate that, as the daughter (a nurse herself) "was happy with the care," we should not be involved, and that this is a non-issue.

    But here we are. Listening to a bunch of people crying about how more wasn't done in an apparent attempt to over-rule the wishes of the deceased and her family.
    Last edited by Twotonsteak; 2013-03-04 at 05:44 AM.

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