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  1. #221
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Not her the company with those rules in place. since those rules caused a criminal negligence to occur, The acts of in this case the standing orders of do nothing caused the person to die. And that is criminal negligence.
    If you are put on a DNR, either you or the person legally responsible for you signs it. If you don't you get what happened to the doctors of that Down's Syndrome patient, ie a huge lawsuit. If you sign a DNR without knowing what it means, you're an idiot.

    The hippocratic oath is not legally binding. It never has been.

    Yes, actually it is costing people. It's costing you. Have fun paying for your doctor's malpractice assurance because greedy pricks want to sue someone for not saving their life properly. Really, it's blind ignorance of medicine like this that is ultimately destroying the US medical system from the ground up; I bet you don't even know what conditions CPR actually has a chance in helping. I'll give you a hint: if someone's pulmonary circulation has outright failed, your CPR isn't going to do anything.

  2. #222
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Not her the company with those rules in place. since those rules caused a criminal negligence to occur, The acts of in this case the standing orders of do nothing caused the person to die. And that is criminal negligence.

    And on top of that a person that thinks those standing orders goes above the medical oath you have sworn to upheld you need to lose your license for practicing medicine even in the form of a nurse.

    Plain and simple IDIOT actions like this needs to COST for those that do them and stand up for them and only way to do that is by suing the living hell out of them
    Exactly what do you think should have been done? As said, performing CPR on an 87 year old woman is about as likely to kill her as the heart attack.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
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  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHETERNAL View Post
    Do you not realize that this kind of foolish attitude is what gave rise to this kind of situation in the first place?

    It is NOT a foolish attitude. fix the system by making all healthcare public healthcare and you a very strict cap on medical malpractice. No money unless it is such bad negligence that the medical provider is getting reprimanded by the issue by his/her board.

    We would fix healthcare costs over night but the will power isnt there obviously So failing to do things since you think that is better is an even worse form of negligence than doing and doing wrong. and needs to be punished even harder. It is the most serious form of negligence you can find from a medical worker.

    It is like you watch a kid drowning in a pool and the guild lines from the swimming pool owners company is we dont dive for the kid at the bottom of the pool until the firefighters arrive. That level of criminal negligence is what is in place here. The fact that it is written up as the company policy makes it even worse and a slam dunk case. where i wouldnt even put my already dead grandparents in this companies care.

  4. #224
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    It is NOT a foolish attitude. fix the system by making all healthcare public healthcare and you a very strict cap on medical malpractice. No money unless it is such bad negligence that the medical provider is getting reprimanded by the issue by his/her board.

    We would fix healthcare costs over night but the will power isnt there obviously So failing to do things since you think that is better is an even worse form of negligence than doing and doing wrong. and needs to be punished even harder. It is the most serious form of negligence you can find from a medical worker.

    It is like you watch a kid drowning in a pool and the guild lines from the swimming pool owners company is we dont dive for the kid at the bottom of the pool until the firefighters arrive. That level of criminal negligence is what is in place here. The fact that it is written up as the company policy makes it even worse and a slam dunk case. where i wouldnt even put my already dead grandparents in this companies care.
    You seem to fail in grasping the fact that the only reason policies like this is because people are overly litigious. Really, it's the consumer's fault in this case.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    I bet you don't even know what conditions CPR actually has a chance in helping. I'll give you a hint: if someone's pulmonary circulation has outright failed, your CPR isn't going to do anything.
    This seems pretty accurate, really; CPR is really only effective in the case of cardiac arrest, which from the sounds of the article wasn't the case.

    Ultimately, this is a scenario in which I blame movies for an overly optimistic view of how CPR works and when it's appropriate. Kind of like the whole concept of "shooting to wound."

    "Used alone, CPR will result in few complete recoveries, and those who do survive often develop serious complications. Estimates vary, but many organizations stress that CPR does not "bring anyone back," it simply preserves the body for defibrillation and advanced life support. ...On average, only 5–10% of people who receive CPR survive. The purpose of CPR is not to "start" the heart, but rather to circulate oxygenated blood, and keep the brain alive until advanced care (especially defibrillation) can be initiated. ...Common complications due to CPR include rib fractures, sternal fractures, bleeding in the anterior mediastinum, heart contusion, hemopericardium, upper airway complications, damage to the abdominal viscus - lacerations of the liver and spleen, fat emboli, pulmonary complications - pneumothorax, hemothorax, lung contusions. ...The type and frequency of injury can be affected by factors such as gender and age. For instance, women have a higher risk of sternal fractures than men, and risk for rib fractures increases significantly with age."
    Last edited by DarkTZeratul; 2013-03-04 at 03:01 AM.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    You need to be sued to hell and back for the system in place of we watch people die.
    Nurses and healthcare professionals need to be protected for everything but negligence and gross malpractice. This culture of suing someone trying to do good really needs to stop, and is the reason why situations like the OP linked happen. Cut the culture of sue happy idiots and you might see health care professionals do more for the patients than strictly adhering to the guidelines. A lot of people get into the profession GENUINELY wanting to help people and aren't just in it for the money and never cut corners to bring the best service they can provide, but often become jaded when they see their friends or they themselves are slapped with giant lawsuits.
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  7. #227
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    It is NOT a foolish attitude. fix the system by making all healthcare public healthcare and you a very strict cap on medical malpractice. No money unless it is such bad negligence that the medical provider is getting reprimanded by the issue by his/her board.
    A DNR is a legally recognized legal agreement. It is used when people make the extremely hard and difficult decision that they want to let the person they love die with dignity and respect, to have them no longer hang on gasping for life in agony and suffering. I have seen people whose respiratory system's failed; it isn't pretty. It's painful. It gets to the point where you can't go to the bathroom without gasping desperately for air. People don't sign away their lives easily; it can very easily be the hardest decision anyone can ever make in their life.

    Who are you to spit on people who have reached that point, who decide that it is time for them to move on instead of lingering in suffering?

  8. #228
    Greedy lawyers are really what brought down the healthcare system in the US.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Not her the company with those rules in place. since those rules caused a criminal negligence to occur, The acts of in this case the standing orders of do nothing caused the person to die. And that is criminal negligence.

    And on top of that a person that thinks those standing orders goes above the medical oath you have sworn to upheld you need to lose your license for practicing medicine even in the form of a nurse.

    Plain and simple IDIOT actions like this needs to COST for those that do them and stand up for them and only way to do that is by suing the living hell out of them
    1. If it was CRIMINAL negligence, the nurse would pay in criminal court as well.

    2. I doubt very seriously either you or the article's author knows more about this nurse's medical oath obligations than she does.

    3. The company has those rules in place for a reason, they are agreed to with the patient's powers of attorney, and they are legally enforceable, or I'll eat my keyboard.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    If you are put on a DNR, either you or the person legally responsible for you signs it. If you don't you get what happened to the doctors of that Down's Syndrome patient, ie a huge lawsuit. If you sign a DNR without knowing what it means, you're an idiot.

    The hippocratic oath is not legally binding. It never has been.

    Yes, actually it is costing people. It's costing you. Have fun paying for your doctor's malpractice assurance because greedy pricks want to sue someone for not saving their life properly. Really, it's blind ignorance of medicine like this that is ultimately destroying the US medical system from the ground up; I bet you don't even know what conditions CPR actually has a chance in helping. I'll give you a hint: if someone's pulmonary circulation has outright failed, your CPR isn't going to do anything.

    You dont need to teach me anything about CPR i have a fairly good knowledge of emergency medicine thru my work , thank you. It is emergency medicine where you do NOT have access to standard medical facilities. yet emergencies can and will happen even in those places. But we have tools and medicines to give folks with a heart attack etc at least a fair chance. Sure you will not be in the regular ER within the hour since that isnt humanly possible when you are 1500 miles out at sea.

    But would we tolerate a do nothing policy? hell no.

  11. #231
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    You dont need to teach me anything about CPR i have a fairly good knowledge of emergency medicine thru my work , thank you. It is emergency medicine where you do NOT have access to standard medical facilities. yet emergencies can and will happen even in those places. But we have tools and medicines to give folks with a heart attack etc at least a fair chance. Sure you will not be in the regular ER within the hour since that isnt humanly possible when you are 1500 miles out at sea.

    But would we tolerate a do nothing policy? hell no.
    What part of DNR do you fail to understand, exactly? Especially when it's CPR on an eldery patient.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  12. #232
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Exactly what do you think should have been done? As said, performing CPR on an 87 year old woman is about as likely to kill her as the heart attack.
    Not to mention, CPR on someone with pulmonary failure from what was probably a chronic condition could itself be considered malpractice. The medical treatment does not fit the problem at hand.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 04:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    You dont need to teach me anything about CPR i have a fairly good knowledge of emergency medicine thru my work , thank you. It is emergency medicine where you do NOT have access to standard medical facilities. yet emergencies can and will happen even in those places. But we have tools and medicines to give folks with a heart attack etc at least a fair chance. Sure you will not be in the regular ER within the hour since that isnt humanly possible when you are 1500 miles out at sea.

    But would we tolerate a do nothing policy? hell no.
    Ok, I really have to ask now. Do you not know what a DNR legal agreement is?

  13. #233
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Not to mention, CPR on someone with pulmonary failure from what was probably a chronic condition could itself be considered malpractice. The medical treatment does not fit the problem at hand.
    I'm very tempted to post a clip of that Red vs. Blue thing about CPR for a bullet wound to the head.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Decklan View Post
    Nurses and healthcare professionals need to be protected for everything but negligence and gross malpractice. This culture of suing someone trying to do good really needs to stop, and is the reason why situations like the OP linked happen. Cut the culture of sue happy idiots and you might see health care professionals do more for the patients than strictly adhering to the guidelines. A lot of people get into the profession GENUINELY wanting to help people and aren't just in it for the money and never cut corners to bring the best service they can provide, but often become jaded when they see their friends or they themselves are slapped with giant lawsuits.

    Exactly and thats why i fully support a model of ZERO monetary rewards unless the doctor etc have been reprimanded by a review of his peers. If the negligence isnt big enough to warrant a reprimand on the doctor it isnt big enough to reward a penny in damages.

    Think of it like you are in for surgery on your right arm and the doctor operates your LEFT arm this is gross negligence and he will most likely get reprimanded for it. compare this to he operates on the correct arm but the scar is not as invisible as you thought it would be and you sue him for that. This is where the lawsuits in general is from a lot of people. Here you deserve nothing unless you it can be proven that it is from negligence by the board of peers that reviewed it

  15. #235
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I'm very tempted to post a clip of that Red vs. Blue thing about CPR for a bullet wound to the head.
    I mentioned it earlier in the thread (one of my favorites scenes, actually). As comical as it is, it really does fit this conversation perfectly.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 04:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Exactly and thats why i fully support a model of ZERO monetary rewards unless the doctor etc have been reprimanded by a review of his peers.
    So you want a full board to be assembled every single time a DNR is followed? Even though the daughter was obviously understanding of the entire situation and accepted the legitimacy of the nurse's actions?

  16. #236
    The Lightbringer Kathranis's Avatar
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    If there was a DNR policy, then the policy was followed. A DNR states that if the patient's heart stops beating and/or they stop breathing, there will be no attempt to revive them using CPR or mechanical means. Do. Not. Resuscitate.

    CPR also has a very low success rate, especially among the elderly, where the individual has usually stopped breathing due to other underlying medical complications. Most elderly do not survive CPR, or die of cardiac or respiratory arrest within 24-48 hours of receiving it. In the elderly, CPR can cause further complications, such as broken ribs, punctured lungs, and kidney damage.

  17. #237
    I don't care about rules or whatnot, if someone's life is at stake then I will perform CPR on them. Not doing so is just barbaric and wrong on so many levels.
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  18. #238
    Moderator Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser499 View Post
    I don't care about rules or whatnot, if someone's life is at stake then I will perform CPR on them. Not doing so is just barbaric and wrong on so many levels.
    If someone gets their arm cut off and is bleeding out, would you perform CPR on them?

  19. #239
    I knew a doctor who had DNR tattooed on his chest.... I also know a few SF boys who have similar tattoo's. All of them have legitimate reason for not wanting to be revived if they are ever in that situation. Generally because they are familiar with the results of a "successful" revival

  20. #240
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiser499 View Post
    I don't care about rules or whatnot, if someone's life is at stake then I will perform CPR on them. Not doing so is just barbaric and wrong on so many levels.
    "CPR also has a very low success rate, especially among the elderly, where the individual has usually stopped breathing due to other underlying medical complications. Most elderly do not survive CPR, or die of cardiac or respiratory arrest within 24-48 hours of receiving it. In the elderly, CPR can cause further complications, such as broken ribs, punctured lungs, and kidney damage."

    Which is why I would trust a Nurse that actually follows policy over someone who clearly has little medical knowledge.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-03 at 07:17 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    If someone gets their arm cut off and is bleeding out, would you perform CPR on them?
    No, that's a foot-rub.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

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