[US] Nurse refuses to perform CPR

[Kasierith]

DNR does NOT apply in this situation since no where in the story on either source of the story is it named that the woman had an outspoken do not resuscitate.

And now you don't know what HIPAA is.

What is at stake here is the do nothing policy of the home. Basically they have a policy that FORBIDS the workers to put on a pressure bandage in the case of a severe cut since that would mean they violate the do nothing policy of wait until the emergency crew arrives.

No, that is not how a do not resuscitate legal document works. What's more, a facility makes its policies known to anyone who signs in there; in fact, you have to sign them before they let you stay. Why do you think the daughter had no problem with her mothers passing?

So the do nothing rule says they are to let a person bleed out which shows that this have NOTHING with DNR to do.

Again, no. Not how a DNR works. What's more, she had pulmonary failure, not a cut.

[Kathranis]

I don't care about rules or whatnot, if someone's life is at stake then I will perform CPR on them. Not doing so is just barbaric and wrong on so many levels.

Yeah, and what happens when you violate the woman's DNR policy, break her rib because she has osteoporosis, and it punctures her lung? Then she dies 24 hours later from complications while choking on her own blood, and her family sues the shit out of you?

Do you even know how to perform CPR properly?

[Magpai]

DNR does NOT apply in this situation since no where in the story on either source of the story is it named that the woman had an outspoken do not resuscitate. What is at stake here is the do nothing policy of the home. Basically they have a policy that FORBIDS the workers to put on a pressure bandage in the case of a severe cut since that would mean they violate the do nothing policy of wait until the emergency crew arrives.

So the do nothing rule says they are to let a person bleed out which shows that this have NOTHING with DNR to do.

Dollars to donuts those regulations are in place to free them from liability. If you've got a problem with that, then blame successful frivolous lawsuits. If you don't believe there's a frivolous lawsuit problem, then the regulations are justified.

[araine]

If someone gets their arm cut off and is bleeding out, would you perform CPR on them?

I would make sure we dont sit around idle doing nothing since that cant ever be a good idea. DNR etc is NOT the norm on people and we should ALWAYS assume the opposite is in place until// unless we know the opinion of the person that is hurt.

A do nothing policy is about as dumb and dangerous as it comes and that policy is gross negligence and the company for having this policy is most likely guilty of a crime of negligence in this case.

[Kasierith]

Dollars to donuts those regulations are in place to free them from liability. If you've got a problem with that, then blame successful frivolous lawsuits. If you don't believe there's a frivolous lawsuit problem, then the regulations are justified.

They're also there to prevent harm to the body when they know that a person will not respond to attempts to revive them. People die. It seems that a lot of people outside of the medical community don't really get this. Most people go into hospitals and such to get better. But some of them go there to die.

[araine]

Dollars to donuts those regulations are in place to free them from liability. If you've got a problem with that, then blame successful frivolous lawsuits. If you don't believe there's a frivolous lawsuit problem, then the regulations are justified.

make healthcare a public totally tax funded system and remove all monetary rewards from malpractice unless the doctor is negligent to the level where he gets reprimanded by a board of his peers. problem solved. And we cut healthcare costs in 1/2 probably within a year or two.

[Letmesleep]

If the daughter was happy with the care provided, then perhaps the woman had a DNR order attached and not all the facts have been given to the media. Or perhaps the media has more information, but to get a sensationalized attention grab, they aren't reporting all of the facts.

I agree. We don't have all the information. Perhaps the elderly woman had been living in suffering and had stated she didn't want to be revived previously. The daughter seems slightly relieved as well, and as little as black-and-white thinkers get it, sometimes death is better than living in misery. Perhaps the family had been hoping this happened, not for their sake, but for the elderly woman's sake. There are tons of circumstances in which people would be relieved to pass on.

[Kasierith]

I would make sure we dont sit around idle doing nothing since that cant ever be a good idea. DNR etc is NOT the norm on people and we should ALWAYS assume the opposite is in place until// unless we know the opinion of the person that is hurt.

A do nothing policy is about as dumb and dangerous as it comes and that policy is gross negligence and the company for having this policy is most likely guilty of a crime of negligence in this case.

The person made their opinion known when they signed the DNR. You must sign a DNR in order for it to be in effect; if a doctor puts it on otherwise, you get a huge lawsuit over it.

It's fairly obvious that you have no medical background whatsoever, at this point. CPR is effective in very, very specific situations. All that you want to do is throw medicine aside and not even give the grieving family the small condolence of an intact body.

[Rhyseh]

DNR does NOT apply in this situation since no where in the story on either source of the story is it named that the woman had an outspoken do not resuscitate. What is at stake here is the do nothing policy of the home. Basically they have a policy that FORBIDS the workers to put on a pressure bandage in the case of a severe cut since that would mean they violate the do nothing policy of wait until the emergency crew arrives.

So the do nothing rule says they are to let a person bleed out which shows that this have NOTHING with DNR to do.

There is a distinct difference between a "Do Nothing" policy and a "Do Not Perform CPR" Policy. Particularly when the second one is the only one referenced in the article. It's pretty obvious to anyone who's had to deal with this kind of thing, on either a personal or professional level, that their CPR policy sounds pretty close to a DNR policy. It's probably a policy that the resident and their family is well aware of. In fact it may well be the reason they chose this particular care facility.

[Kathranis]

DNR does NOT apply in this situation since no where in the story on either source of the story is it named that the woman had an outspoken do not resuscitate.

Yes they do.

Basically they have a policy that FORBIDS the workers to put on a pressure bandage in the case of a severe cut since that would mean they violate the do nothing policy of wait until the emergency crew arrives.

So the do nothing rule says they are to let a person bleed out which shows that this have NOTHING with DNR to do.

No they do not.

DNRs have nothing to do with receiving cuts or broken bones or injuries. DNR states that if a patient stops breathing or their heart stops, they will not be revived with CPR or mechanical means.

The nurse employed by the facility followed the policies in place. Stop arguing bullshit about criminal neglicence, it does not apply in this case, or in the case of DNR. If someone claimed neglicence every time an elderly person died because they stopped breathing, there would be thousands of new criminal negligence cases every day. That's how the elderly die; usually during the night, in the privacy of their own room, with nobody around to dial 911.

[Magpai]

make healthcare a public totally tax funded system and remove all monetary rewards from malpractice unless the doctor is negligent to the level where he gets reprimanded by a board of his peers. problem solved. And we cut healthcare costs in 1/2 probably within a year or two.

Yeah, the best way to cut healthcare costs is definitely to remove all incentive for people to shop around.

You want the public to foot the bill for every retirement home stay in the country. Do you have any idea the resources that sort of thing costs? No way, save for your own retirement and I'll do the same for mine, thanks.

I also find this suggestion lacks credibility when proposed by someone who wants this nurse to have the "living hell sued out of her" in spite of all regulations and agreements directly authorizing her lack of action. If you can't even show restraint on this then your idea of fair monetary rewards would swiftly bankrupt the healthcare industry.

[Alvito]

I am actually suprized that this discussion takes place. Am I reading correct? Does the argument of not letting someone die need further explanation? Do you US people find this natural? In many countries that nurse would be in jail by now.

No check up on all the facts if somebody signs a DNR then they don't want ppl to give them CPR or anything else if something like this happens. The opposite is actually true if she would have given CPR and brought this woman back she then would have faced charges. If somebody wants to die and they are going to naturally do so it isn't up to others to decide that they should live and try to make it happen.

[Nathreim]

Not defending what happened but people have been sued preforming CPR and the Heimlich without permission.

[Magpai]

They're also there to prevent harm to the body when they know that a person will not respond to attempts to revive them. People die. It seems that a lot of people outside of the medical community don't really get this. Most people go into hospitals and such to get better. But some of them go there to die.

This is one of the biggest reasons that publicly-funded healthcare scares me so. The people behind it seem to run on the premises that all deaths are preventible, and that preventing them in all cases at any cost regardless of the quality of life involved is a government's (read: a taxpayer's) moral duty.

---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 03:32 AM ----------

I am actually suprized that this discussion takes place. Am I reading correct? Does the argument of not letting someone die need further explanation? Do you US people find this natural? In many countries that nurse would be in jail by now.

Translation: "I did not read into the details or the article, nor in the responses to it in this thread, and am only running on the emotionally-charged reaction to 'someone died!' that the author was going for."

People like you are farm animals for the media sensationalists.

[Krawu]

That's ridiculous, do the US have no law that punishes failure to render assistance in an emergency? Here in Germany, being a nurse and not performing CPR when required, no matter what company policy says, would land you in the slammer for up to a year. And rightfully so I might add. What kind of person do you have to be to just idly stand by and outright deny even the requests of another pleading you to render help. She was specially trained to do this shit or so one should assume. This makes me glad not to be living there, to think you could be bleeding out and medical personnel are standing next to you saying "nah, don't feel like it today".

[Gemini Sunrise]

That's ridiculous, do the US have no law that punishes failure to render assistance in an emergency? Here in Germany, being a nurse and not performing CPR when required, no matter what company policy says, would land you in the slammer for up to a year. And rightfully so I might add. What kind of person do you have to be to just idly stand by and outright deny even the requests of another pleading you to render help. She was specially trained to do this shit or so one should assume. This makes me glad not to be living there, to think you could be bleeding out and medical personnel are standing next to you saying "nah, don't feel like it today".

If she did it, she'd probably get sued out the ass, and fired besides.

[Kasierith]

That's ridiculous, do the US have no law that punishes failure to render assistance in an emergency? Here in Germany, being a nurse and not performing CPR when required, no matter what company policy says, would land you in the slammer for up to a year. And rightfully so I might add. What kind of person do you have to be to just idly stand by and outright deny even the requests of another pleading you to render help. She was specially trained to do this shit or so one should assume. This makes me glad not to be living there, to think you could be bleeding out and medical personnel are standing next to you saying "nah, don't feel like it today".

Right up there, the underlined portion. She was not only not required, but was expressly forbidden according to the will of those who either signed the direct DNR or who signed the mountain of legal paperwork provided by the home for this express purpose. You have no right to force your will on the patient and the patient's family.

And Germany has DNR's as well. This isn't an American-only thing.

[Kathranis]

That's ridiculous, do the US have no law that punishes failure to render assistance in an emergency? Here in Germany, being a nurse and not performing CPR when required, no matter what company policy says, would land you in the slammer for up to a year. And rightfully so I might add. What kind of person do you have to be to just idly stand by and outright deny even the requests of another pleading you to render help. She was specially trained to do this shit or so one should assume. This makes me glad not to be living there, to think you could be bleeding out and medical personnel are standing next to you saying "nah, don't feel like it today".

Do you not know what a Do Not Resuscitate order is? I know they have them in Germany, I looked it up.

Lots of elderly people sign them, as was the case with the elderly living in this health care facility.

It means that when they stop breathing or their heart stops, you're supposed to let them die, rather than perform CPR or use machines to keep them alive.

A nurse would also know when it's appropriate to perform CPR. As CPR rarely works on the elderly and can cause further complications or outright fatality, it is usually not a medically advisable course of action.

[Dreamless]

That's ridiculous, do the US have no law that punishes failure to render assistance in an emergency? Here in Germany, being a nurse and not performing CPR when required, no matter what company policy says, would land you in the slammer for up to a year. And rightfully so I might add. What kind of person do you have to be to just idly stand by and outright deny even the requests of another pleading you to render help. She was specially trained to do this shit or so one should assume. This makes me glad not to be living there, to think you could be bleeding out and medical personnel are standing next to you saying "nah, don't feel like it today".

Not breaking the sternum of an elderly person and thus not forcing them to die of drowning in their own blood is not a failure to render assistance.

[Magpai]

This makes me glad not to be living there, to think you could be bleeding out and medical personnel are standing next to you saying "nah, don't feel like it today".

As long as you're willing to ignore the facts and the context of the issue for the purpose of confirming your prejudices against the US in general, then yeah, this makes total sense. The only people who will miss you here is the media sensationalists who thrive off of people like you who discard fact-based rational thought in favor of emotional reactions where facts are something you willfully ignore because they're obstacles to your outrage.