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  1. #21
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    I would argue that if you play at the level I try to play at, things like that no longer become optional. I've planned every point of valor up until now, and i've capped every week. But here's the difference: valor capping is done via PvE content as well as dailies. Meaning after you've done enough dailies for your 3 elder charms you no longer have to do any dailies if you wish with absolutely no raiding consequence. In other words, I can do PvE things to be optimal in PvE. With the polearm, I have to do LOTS of non-PvE things to be optimal in pve. In fact, I had to have been doing lots of non-pve things to have built up the gold to be able to do this, which i have not done. If the heroic version dropped off heroic trash, then this would be a non issue. The problem is not that it's on the BMAH, it's that it is ONLY on the BMAH.
    Well, to counter, I do the same thing. I plan/sim/test/chat everything. The only reason I'm in a less progressed guild is to play with friends. But (again playing devil's advocate, personally I think EFFECTIVELY requiring raiders to do dailies etc is bad design) this is a MMO, which includes aspects and scopes beyond simply the raid playstyle. To what extent is it acceptable for one activity to either interact, or be required to perform another more efficiently? That should be the real discussion. Example, racials and professions. Both of which are "required" to min/max, but which don't directly relate to raiding. So does cooking/alchemy and the work required to keep raiders in stock of consumables. Should this be required? Or what about capping valor outside of raids, or dailies? Heck, even PVP has been a requirement to min/max at the start of expansions.

    So I ask this, is it really a stretch to make gold making a requirement to perfectly min/max? If the answer is yes, than where is the line drawn? Should the game be made so that each aspect can be readily and with no harm detached from another? Making zin'rokh an arch drop, was that ok?

    My point being, logically, it sort of makes sense to say "Hey now people with gold can get an advantage, just like people who chose to play a better race, or have better professions." That being said, due to the uneven nature of server pops, and the RNG of the BMAH, I'd say no, it's a poor design. Allowing raid level pieces to be purchased is fine, but making pieces exclusive to BMAH, or making pieces drop from the last few bosses available on the BMAH is a bad design.

    In addition, gold making isn't technically "playing the AH." There are plenty of ways to make gold through PVE, whether that be farming, running old instances, leveling, or the like. I'm not saying that makes it acceptable, I'm simply saying that gold making, like other raid related drudgery, isn't outside the realm of PVE.

    Oh, another point. What about BOEs, whether crafted, trash drops, or world drops? These require large quantities of gold, and yet I rarely hear raiders complain. Granted, that is likely since these are often not BiS pieces, but I'd counter argue and say that a major upgrade like Relic at the start of an expac or tier can be far more beneficial than an upgrade from normal to BiS in another slot.

    Personally, I'd like to be able to valor cap through ONLY raiding, I'm fine with racials/professions and their state of PVE impact, as well as consumables (Although IDK how many potions I've used, easily 2k this tier.) And with BOEs.

    And last but not least, I have a question. Outside of personal enjoyment (whether just getting it all, or for ranking, etc), why does full BiS matter? If it doesn't impact progression, I don't see as much harm. I dislike not getting it (That damn belt never won it in DS...) but really, with no impact it doesn't really matter.

    TL;DR, ONLY on BMAH is bad design. Items on BMAH are bad/good depending on how hard they are to get. Ultimately, I don't see full BiS happening anyway w/ thunderforge RNG, so it's rather moot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 12:08 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Assumi View Post
    Is the term "optional content" going to be the cop out counter argument for everything relating to WoW going forward?
    I don't think you understand what "devil's advocate" means. Read the rest of post to see the rest of the arguments.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    I am a raider 100%. I don't play the AH at all. I make enough gold to fund my raiding and maybe a bit on the side. Right now i'm sitting at about 25k. If my BiS goes on the BMAH, there is simply NO way i'm getting it. we should be 13/13H by the end, yet no matter how well we do this tier I will not get my BiS simply because I don't care about in game gold. That is completely ridiculous.
    Your guild can sell 13/13 H carries and use that gold to buy gear off the BMAH.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
    Blood dks? How about 2handed users in general. Meanwhile hunters get 3 weapons! More weapons to themselves then the entire str dps 2hand specs. Oh lawd. Same thing with assassination having 2 exclusive dagger weapon options and 3 agi combat options.

    But the concern isn't only about Oh only 2 weapons. It's also ONLY TWO CHANCES at a heroic thunderforged weapons. Casters get 8 seperate bosses to see if Heroic TF caster weapons drop. Which is a pretty high chance to see one weekly vs a single 2h.
    Agreed on all fronts.

    There's also not a single 2H with haste. It's stupid.

    It's aggravated by the fact one of these two-handers (the only one for Blood DKs, by the way) drops on Lei Shen, which means that during progression you have ONE single shot at a weapon upgrade. one, over an entire instance.
    even Firelands, with 7 bosses, had more 2 handed weapons than Throne of Thunder. It's ridiculous.
    The only spec which shares the same problem is Feral Druids (2 staves, including 1 off Lei Shen), but.. they are the only ones using 2H agility staves. They aren't the same as 5 specs across 3 classes.

    I'm just hoping they added the haste sword and the mastery polearm to the loot tables on that last push, but I highly doubt it.
    Last edited by Mionelol; 2013-03-05 at 10:58 AM.

  4. #24
    Most retarded thing is prob that theres 3 fucking ranged weapons from bosses PLUS another 1 from trash (1 boss bow, 1 trash bow, 1 x-bow, 1 gun) that only a single class uses.
    What's the average amount of hunters in a 25man raid these days? 2-3..?

    Edit: The gun is trash aswell. 2 ranged weapons from trash. Wh.. What? Why?

  5. #25
    The Patient Manarak's Avatar
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    I got this weapon last night, dropped from Primordius, seems like a shared boss drop loot then? Shame it wasn't thunderforged;(

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Manarak View Post
    I got this weapon last night, dropped from Primordius, seems like a shared boss drop loot then? Shame it wasn't thunderforged;(
    Wait it dropped from the boss? If so then it isn't limited to only trash (or for heroic BMAH). Are you sure it dropped from the boss and not a trash pack near/around the boss?

  7. #27
    The weapons seem to be dropping off of bosses. Check YouTube for durumu 25 resto shaman. Bo-ris drops.

  8. #28
    Bloodsail Admiral Seregon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoolatarygos View Post
    The weapons seem to be dropping off of bosses. Check YouTube for durumu 25 resto shaman. Bo-ris drops.
    Oh great! It's going to be the Dragon Soul shared drop trinket all over again, isn't it?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Seregon View Post
    Oh great! It's going to be the Dragon Soul shared drop trinket all over again, isn't it?
    Except worse because of how many weapons are shared.

  10. #30
    The Patient Manarak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravendale View Post
    Wait it dropped from the boss? If so then it isn't limited to only trash (or for heroic BMAH). Are you sure it dropped from the boss and not a trash pack near/around the boss?
    Were no trash packs around, definately dropped off the boss.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Hate to break it to you but Bo-ris, Horror in the Night is a trash drop, thus there will be no heroic version of and it since it won't exist it can't be BIS.
    Dropped off of Horridon for me.
    Only the dead have seen the end of war. - George Santayana
    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana


  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Manarak View Post
    Were no trash packs around, definately dropped off the boss.
    REJOICE, this means that we can possibly expect heroic Bo-Ris, but unfortunately it's a shared boss drop then. :/

  13. #33
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravendale View Post
    REJOICE, this means that we can possibly expect heroic Bo-Ris, but unfortunately it's a shared boss drop then. :/
    Better than people getting one just because they had the patience to trash farm for 40 hours straight IMO ;-)
    Amazing signature courtesy of Shyama

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by vmagik View Post
    Better than people getting one just because they had the patience to trash farm for 40 hours straight IMO ;-)
    I don't know about you, but I know I was looking forward to spending hours tuesday farming trash in a 10 man pug before raid time. It'd be just like farming souls for shadowmourne all over again. :P

    (I'm also really, REALLY excited about the fact that this opens up heroic Bo-Ris as a possibility during progression.)

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