Mage Bomb in 5.2

[Akraen]

I was the person who brought up the question whether or not to glyph it - which this dazzlingly brilliant community took as "OMG AK SAYS DONT USE GLYPH OF ICY VEINS"

I experiment with Frost Bomb now and then, but all it does is contribute to our lack of movement, which is a DPS loss in itself.

[jtmzac]

Well then I guess I'll just ask:

In your experience do you think the dps difference between nether tempest and frost bomb is relevant at all or should you just use what you find works best?

Is refreshing nether tempest actually much of an increase over just spamming Ice Lance? I'm just not seeing how nether tempest really improves our movement by that much.

[Akraen]

Well then I guess I'll just ask:

In your experience do you think the dps difference between nether tempest and frost bomb is relevant at all or should you just use what you find works best?

Is refreshing nether tempest actually much of an increase over just spamming Ice Lance? I'm just not seeing how nether tempest really improves our movement by that much.

Key to maximizing frost DPS is to exploit mechanics whenever you can, and time everything as well as you can. Also, since we have so many things to watch (tellmewhen is invaluable to me):
-Heroism/Bloodlust
-Wushoolay's Trinket
-Light of the Cosmos
-Jade Spirit
-Potion
-Tricks (if I'm lucky)
-Invoker's Energy
-Icy veins

It's proven much more effective in practical testing to be able to not add more things to that list, which is why I disagree with people pushing Incanter's Ward (it's another thing to line up) and frost bomb (it has a cast time).

I'll give you an example, on Durumu during the maze phase, you take ice floes, obviously-- so that's two casts. You don't want your frostbolt debuff to wear off, so it's best to cast. You can run ahead and get evocate or a frostbolt off if you time it right, and you'll trigger additional procs. Being able to do this generates more FoF overall your 100% NT uptime will generate BF on the move.

Frost bomb will always be clunky, even in a standstill situation simply because you're lining so many other things up. Nether Tempest is fluid and constant, and all it takes is a GCD. This added benefit allows you to properly do fights while also exploiting mechanics and adding a more seamless playstyle.

So, I'm not giving any math here, I'm giving sensible playstyle advice. And as much as I love to keep up with the mathcraft, I find intuitioncraft is sometimes what the community could use a little more of, and it's definitely the harder-to-find portion of theorycraft that many people overlook when trying to find what is "best"

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/31...kings/players/

[jtmzac]

-snip-

Interesting.

You have such an advantage being in a 25man team. Which makes it very hard to try and compare dps when others like me are in 10 man teams. I'm not actually that far behind you on some of those lfr rankings but thats not really a fair comparison. I don't know wether you were really trying and you do have significantly better gear than me.

While your answering questions any tips about trinkets/enchants? I've never really been sure how much we should modify our rotations and cd's around them.

[Kiry]

I think playstyle and fight is a huge impact on what bomb you use (as well as gear and stats). I used Fbomb on the first four bosses last night, just to play around. While it was nice to see the big numbers, I will recommend you do what is best for your raid.

As a 10 man, I find Fbomb is good for Tortos and Horror. Council I would recommend NT, the mobs can too far apart for the explosion to be of benefit and frequently you need to multidot. For Jin, /shrug. I think - do whatever you find is best. Normal mode Jin is easy and some what patchwerky. Good place to play around with abilities imo. Since my guild is still learning and adapting, squeezing out the numbers is a mode still in progress. Imo, success of a boss kill comes from more than just dps.

[Obelisk Kai]

Perhaps the issue is that Nether Tempest and Living Bomb are simply too close in design (both dots). If the niche Living Bomb is supposed to fill is that of tightly packed cleave dps every 12 seconds (when the bomb Triggers), maybe it should be replaced by a long cast or channeled cleaving (max three targets?) nuke spell on a twelve second cooldown?

[Deleted]

I won't argue with Akraen because is far better and more advanced than me (with a guild that can collapse this night or rebirth like phoenix).

I think that Bomb choice is really a personal game-play choice.
Except for some fight (like Garalon), they can be done with the 3 bombs and result in similar result. Even if, 1 bomb choice will e better than the others two but the margin will be insignificant for 90% of the player. Some can even perform better with the "bad" choice than some with the "best" choice.

For number, in Patchwerk still fight, Frost bomb do more DPS but NT will proc more. In both case, the difference is less than 1% and globally result in FB = NT.
But you game-play change depending of the bomb. We don't react in the same manner to a predictable BF proc than to a random one.

For finishing, an example with Horridon. Optimally, NT is better because of the multi-doting. But FB is good because you can Deep Freeze some add, and kill them in 5s. It's also depend on your roll. In 25, did you have to focus some add or focus only Horridon ? And what about Living bomb ? On 4-6 targets, it's the best DPS but it's use feel clunky with Frost game-play.

(note : I only compare a bomb DpS taken alone)

[Akraen]

I won't argue with Akraen because is far better and more advanced than me (with a guild that can collapse this night or rebirth like phoenix).

I think that Bomb choice is really a personal game-play choice.
Except for some fight (like Garalon), they can be done with the 3 bombs and result in similar result. Even if, 1 bomb choice will e better than the others two but the margin will be insignificant for 90% of the player. Some can even perform better with the "bad" choice than some with the "best" choice.

For number, in Patchwerk still fight, Frost bomb do more DPS but NT will proc more. In both case, the difference is less than 1% and globally result in FB = NT.
But you game-play change depending of the bomb. We don't react in the same manner to a predictable BF proc than to a random one.

For finishing, an example with Horridon. Optimally, NT is better because of the multi-doting. But FB is good because you can Deep Freeze some add, and kill them in 5s. It's also depend on your roll. In 25, did you have to focus some add or focus only Horridon ? And what about Living bomb ? On 4-6 targets, it's the best DPS but it's use feel clunky with Frost game-play.

(note : I only compare a bomb DpS taken alone)

I agree with you Nathyiel! I think for learning and progression Nether Tempest yields better results due to being instant cast. Helps for mechanics.

Once everything is on farm, I like do experiments with other bombs. Even if one is x% higher DPS, unless it can be used to its maximum efficiency it may result in lower overall numbers.

But we all have different styles, frost bomb can work I'm sure, but I find it far too cumbersome to raid lead and do my maximum DPS on these very mechanically dense fights by having another spell with a cast time. The high haste we get during burst haste phases also makes frost bomb more clunky... it comes off CD mid-cast of frostbolt sometimes, or you have 2 charges of FoF up when it comes off CD, and you are constantly clipping your spells (I noticed this when I got to ilvl 505ish last tier).

[Deleted]

To really make all mage bomb more help, casting Frost bomb while moving could be a major help.
Actually, I think some fight could give better result with frost bomb but NT or LB is more useful simply because they can be cast while moving.
And for Tortos, it's a good example of where NT have to shine : spread multi-target.

[jtmzac]

NT is good for the turtles on tortos but frost bomb is nice for killing the bats and if the turtles are dying fast enough you do get some time to stand still and cast.

It really is an abysmal fights for mages and I would really just do whatever helps your raid more rather than trying to do high dps.

I'm not particualrily a fan of using cast time spells while moving but thats probably just because as a mage I'm not used to it.

[Proakryt]

I am not sure why there is a bias against Frostbomb; I just don't see how it adds to limited mobility. First it makes BF procs much more predictable and allows you to bank them between casts. This mechanic is great for planning movement without sacrificing cast time. Even on durumu with blink you can get ahead of the beam in the maze and get 2 or more casts in before having to move. With Ice Floes you can keep up the frostbolt debuff very easily in that phase. I made several mistakes in this kill but I still did decent damage overall (I was trying to post a link to our WoL but cant yet, my char is Dukky in Months Behind Us-Eredar and I did aprox 100k effective dps on our second kill)

I also like Frostbomb due to the increased prevalence of adds that live for a medium to short amount of time in this tier. You can much more easily burst down a group of adds like the Bats on Tortos.

It also makes openers much more predictable (notice a pattern) because you can guarantee a Proc right off the bat. I use both NT and FB about evenly and depending on the fight either can be a valid choice depending on play style. I also question the issue of clipping casts with Frostbomb since if you track its CD you should be able to time your spells accordingly. It comes down to the fight and strategy to determine which bomb I will use and overall I am happy that we get a real personal choice between spells and talents.

[Akraen]

I am not sure why there is a bias against Frostbomb; I just don't see how it adds to limited mobility. First it makes BF procs much more predictable and allows you to bank them between casts. This mechanic is great for planning movement without sacrificing cast time. Even on durumu with blink you can get ahead of the beam in the maze and get 2 or more casts in before having to move. With Ice Floes you can keep up the frostbolt debuff very easily in that phase. I made several mistakes in this kill but I still did decent damage overall (I was trying to post a ling to out WoL but cant yet, my char is Dukky in Months Behind Us-Eredar and I did aprox 100k effective dps on our second kill)

I also like Frostbomb due to the increased prevalence of adds that live for a medium to short amount of time in this tier. You can much more easily burst down a group of adds like the Bats on Tortos.

It also makes openers much more predictable (notice a pattern) because you can guarantee a Proc right off the bat. I use both NT and FB about evenly and depending on the fight either can be a valid choice depending on play style. I also question the issue of clipping casts with Frostbomb since if you track its CD you should be able to time your spells accordingly. It comes down to the fight and strategy to determine which bomb I will use and overall I am happy that we get a real personal choice between spells and talents.

I feel like I'm making the same argument in five different threads. This is getting mildly tedious.

Sure, use frost bomb if it works for you-- mathematically it's great. However it makes gameplay a little more difficult for me and I really can only share my own experiences. Predictability isn't a factor in effective DPS because your procs are not predictable, and if you can predict far enough in ahead your ICDs and CDs along with when Frost bombs will BF, then I bow to your mental acuity. My experiences also show from my logs. I already listed my reasons in this and other threads for NT being the ideal choice in every ToT fight. That said, if frost bomb works for you, great. If you think it's better than NT though I'm going to argue and throw my logs in your face. If your logs beat my logs, I'll bow to you and not be so stubborn as to defend the worse bomb.

But your logs won't beat my logs with frost bomb. And I don't know how anyone could ever claim that a cast time is better than an instant. These two points alone should put the issue to rest until something else changes.

---------- Post added 2013-03-15 at 04:20 PM ----------

NT is good for the turtles on tortos but frost bomb is nice for killing the bats and if the turtles are dying fast enough you do get some time to stand still and cast.

It really is an abysmal fights for mages and I would really just do whatever helps your raid more rather than trying to do high dps.

I'm not particualrily a fan of using cast time spells while moving but thats probably just because as a mage I'm not used to it.

Tortos is an example of a fight where I don't think the goal is to top meters. Each raid will absolutely be different so take that into consideration, but I really find glyphed cone of cold on bats + turtles, NT on turtles (as they whirl about), and keeping Frostbolt debuff on Tortos himself is far more useful to the raid then trying to sacrifice a lot to AoE bats. Other classes have a much easier time putting AoE on the bats, and besides, you can throw your orb at the pack of them, generate oodles of FoF, and throw those ice lances at Tortos himself (which has the FB debuff on him if you're playing correctly!). Bing bam boom done.

[jtmzac]

Tortos is an example of a fight where I don't think the goal is to top meters. Each raid will absolutely be different so take that into consideration, but I really find glyphed cone of cold on bats + turtles, NT on turtles (as they whirl about), and keeping Frostbolt debuff on Tortos himself is far more useful to the raid then trying to sacrifice a lot to AoE bats. Other classes have a much easier time putting AoE on the bats, and besides, you can throw your orb at the pack of them, generate oodles of FoF, and throw those ice lances at Tortos himself (which has the FB debuff on him if you're playing correctly!). Bing bam boom done.

I had barely any time to actually dps tortos because I was focusing on killing the turtles as fast as I could. Definitely use the bats for FoF generation but for our kill I was using the procs on turtles not on tortos.

I'm also our backup kicker for most of the fight and our main kicker at the end of the fight so dps'ing tortos was at the bottom of my priorities.

The CoC slow on turtles when they're just coming out is very useful and was a very good tip. I've realised how bad the glyph of water elemental is and I've swapped to the CoC glyph and I'm finding it surprisingly useful during dailies.

[Proakryt]

But your logs won't beat my logs with frost bomb. And I don't know how anyone could ever claim that a cast time is better than an instant. These two points alone should put the issue to rest until something else changes.

First, there is a difference between an instand cast DoT and an instand cast spell. You have to cast the instant DoT on CD for maximum DPS. You have very little choice of when you can use it for movement. A BF proc from Frostbomb is not the same since you will have several seconds to cast it.

Second, NT may make you more mobile in an absolute sense but that doesn't really deal with realistic fight conditions since you cannot determine when to refresh it without sacrificing DPS. Also you have to use BF procs immediately with NT. On the other hand With FB you can hold it for 5+ seconds to plan for movement. You can even wait for the recast to use BF and still not overlap procs. Even considering the cast time for frostbomb the control of proc usage is unparalleled. Its a quality vs quantity argument and either choice is valid. But just because NT is an instant doesn't automatically make it a more mobile talent in practice. Your arguments are being made in a vacuum. NT will give more chances to move but with smaller windows to use the spells. FB gives fewer chances to move but with a much wider window to move.

Both spells do have drawbacks and the FB cast time really can suck and the CD can be annoying to get maximum casts in a fight, yet at the same time NT introduces more RNG. Pick your poison but be sure to include all aspects of the spell in that decision.

I am happy you win at logs

[Akraen]

Trust me, I'm the least "in a vacuum" mage in this community. I only report empirical results and I leave the math to Nathyiel.

I see no drawback to NT, that's why every mage, of every spec, who is competitive right now is using it. I am not understanding the argument you're trying to make because it's fruitless and pointless. I actually do these fights, get results, and enjoy them (apart from Ji-Kun which sucks in every way possible).

What I can say for sure is that if you're holding on to a BF for 5 sec, you're making a large error. But maybe I'm just a really twitch player?

Second, NT may make you more mobile in an absolute sense but that doesn't really deal with realistic fight conditions since you cannot determine when to refresh it without sacrificing DPS.

This is like saying the sky isn't blue. What?

[Titan]

I seem to do more dmg with FB for whatever reason.

[Kiry]

I seem to do more dmg with FB for whatever reason.

I'm finding the same on Meg, and Tortos. I figure, do whatever works for you and your group. There appears to be a difference with how you play between 10 vs 25. I'm in a 10. My primary focus is whatever is needed to get down adds on certain fights, and dps on the boss on others. Last but not least, survive.