Rop change good imo

[Cuzzin]

If I understand right rop was changed to be more punishing on melee and the argument is that casters rule this time around. But in my opinion as ww the casters arnt the problem its the melee that get the best of me. We are way to flexible for a caster to get away, soo easy to stick on them as long as you silence etc easy. But melee hurt more, and the dmg is much more constant in a fight against a melee. Could this be the reasoning for this?

[Biggety]

The reasoning was that an untrinketable 8 second blanket silence on a caster with only iceblock/divine shield as a counter was too good. 8 seconds is enough time for 2 dps to kill any caster. Uncounterable in pvp is not fun. It's an I-win button.

IMO the nerf went too far so that the situational utility of ROP is pretty much gone. Because the silence is reactive (only going off after the enemy caster gets a spell off) and has a duration of 2 globals, it's very weak against casters. Long after your silence has worn off, you will still be standing in a root or feared.

If melee folks are punishing you, frankly, you're doing something wrong. Aside from getting nigh globaled by warriors early on in 5.0, WW monks can go toe to toe with any melee and usually win by attrition.

Against ranged, we are slightly harder to kite than a DK, but more vulnerable to CC. Yes, we get TL and 2 snare removals via glove bonus, but roll is an imprecise and weak gap closer in pvp, and does nothing to help us stay on a target other than putting us slightly closer to where they were when we rolled.

[Cuzzin]

[QUOTE=Biggety;20416324]The reasoning was that an untrinketable 8 second blanket silence on a caster with only iceblock/divine shield as a counter was too good. 8 seconds is enough time for 2 dps to kill any caster. Uncounterable in pvp is not fun. It's an I-win button.

IMO the nerf went too far so that the situational utility of ROP is pretty much gone. Because the silence is reactive (only going off after the enemy caster gets a spell off) and has a duration of 2 globals, it's very weak against casters. Long after your silence has worn off, you will still be standing in a root or feared.

If melee folks are punishing you, frankly, you're doing something wrong. Aside from getting nigh globaled by warriors early on in 5.0, WW monks can go toe to toe with any melee and usually win by attrition.

Against ranged, we are slightly harder to kite than a DK, but more vulnerable to CC. Yes, we get TL and 2 snare removals via glove bonus, but roll is an imprecise and weak gap closer in pvp, and does nothing to help us stay on a target other than putting us slightly closer to where they were when we rolled.[/QUO

Id have to disagree with the roll part I use roll with great success in pvp nothing like a mage blink and then oh shit hes still right here. And its as precise as you are aiming

[Biggety]

Id have to disagree with the roll part I use roll with great success in pvp nothing like a mage blink and then oh shit hes still right here. And its as precise as you are aiming

Regardless of whether you can use it with success, it is an objectively weak gap closer compared to what other classes get. Warrior charge = on target coupled with a stun + heroic leap. Shadowstep = on target with a sprint + vanish and sprint. Feral charge = on target with a snare + 2x sprint. Death grip = target comes to you + ranged root on icy chains. Paladins and enhance shaman are the two specs without a better gap closer than us. Shaman make up for this a little with things like tremor and grounding totem, ranged interrupt, unsnareable ghost wolf, and root on frostshock. Ret paladins are just not in a great place in pvp.

We can roll 2x, Tiger's lust 1x and Flying Serpent Kick 1x. Of those, Flying Serpent Kick is the best gap closer because of the AoE snare on touchdown, but isn't smart about dealing with minor terrain obstacles that charge/feral charge/shadowstep don't have to deal with. Roll moves us about 10 yards farther than an unsnared run would have gotten us in the same amount of time and has zero effect on the target. Tiger's Lust is almost always going to be used a defensive cooldown to get you out of roots rather than using the minor sprint to close gaps.

All told, it's not a bad toolkit for staying on a target, just less potent than warriors, rogues and ferals, and with a different flavor than death grip. The thing we lack is reliable ways to avoid cc's, especially fears. Nimble brew will help against stuns, but from experience, I am far less afraid of a kidney shot than I am of a fear/poly chain. Berserker rage/cloak of shadows/shapeshift/grounding totem/Anti-magic shield/lichborne/tremor totem. Every melee class but paladins and monks gets some form of protection from CC chains. Of the melee classes, guess which ones struggle the most in competitive pvp.

OT: ring of peace does next to nothing to protect us against enemy CC effects.

[Cuzzin]

you are using examples that require more than one spell when we are talking about just the GAP closer. You say warrior is leap plus heroic blah blah and dk grab plus chains, those are more than one move used together. For all that can we not say that monks can use roll and then FOF for a stun as well? Then guess what monks have a gap closer stun too according to you

[Deleted]

If I understand right rop was changed to be more punishing on melee and the argument is that casters rule this time around. But in my opinion as ww the casters arnt the problem its the melee that get the best of me. We are way to flexible for a caster to get away, soo easy to stick on them as long as you silence etc easy. But melee hurt more, and the dmg is much more constant in a fight against a melee. Could this be the reasoning for this?

I don't have problems in 5.1 with melee, the problem is more or less casters and healers as we currently don't have the burst to get a healer down efficiently. The RoP nerf doesn't make sense to me at all.

[Biggety]

you are using examples that require more than one spell when we are talking about just the GAP closer. You say warrior is leap plus heroic blah blah and dk grab plus chains, those are more than one move used together. For all that can we not say that monks can use roll and then FOF for a stun as well? Then guess what monks have a gap closer stun too according to you

Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant. I was trying to examine the gap closing packages that each class possesses. I wasn't saying that a warrior would charge and then heroic leap. I was saying that each of those abilities fits in the package that warriors can use to stay on top of a ranged class.

Second, your example of using roll plus FoF to imitate a charge is faulty. Roll is on the GCD, which means that while you are rolling, the enemy gets 1.5 seconds to move away from us, stun us, or fear us before we can hit FoF (assuming we have the chi to use the ability.) Charge applies a stun the moment the warrior presses the button (the target cannot interrupt a charge, while they can interrupt a roll or flying dragon kick.) The warrior's target is also rooted by the stun while the warrior travels. The pathing of charge is faster than roll, meaning they close more ground in less time. Charge generates their damage resource. Oh! and charge is off the GCD, so they can immediately land a snare or attack on reaching the target.

Charge is flatly superior in every way to roll, which isn't a problem in and of itself until you consider that warriors also have a short cooldown fear immunity, wear plate, have respectable self heals, a better AoE stun, better damage, on demand damage cooldowns, and better group utility abilities.

But that ignores my major point. Our gap closers are mostly fine. The thing that kills us in competitive pvp is our lack of cc breaks/immunities, something every other melee spec (except rets) has some form of. I am witholding judgment until I can see nimble brew in action, but my instinct is that a 2-minute mini-trinket is too long a cooldown to bring us in line with other melee (other than rets.)

Warriors still get wrecked by competent mages.

[Cuzzin]

So will my lock be more viable for arena play than my monk

[Teriz]

So will my lock be more viable for arena play than my monk

Depends.

If you're fighting casters, you really shouldn't be using RoP. You should be using one of your stun talents alongside Touch of Karma, and Diffuse Magic. Windwakers may not have reliable gap closers, but they make up for this by being able to manipulate opponents at range with ToK, DM, Jade Lightning, Spinning Fire Blossoms, Paralyze, Xuen, and Chi Wave. Once you close the distance, you should be shutting them down with stuns, spear hands, and disable. Leg Sweep is especially potent since its a 5-sec AoE stun on a pretty short CD.

WWs have plenty of tools to stop casters, which is why the RoP nerf was necessary.