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  1. #101
    Regarding SS:
    The problem is really the way spirit shell is designed, you stack it before the aoe damage goes out, it absorbs all the damage for the first second of the X second long period of aoe, for X-1 all your healers still have to put out exactly the same amount of hps as if the spirit shell wasn't present in the first place. SS is amazing at dealing with bursts of aoe damage, it's actual impact on longer periods is abyssmal and mostly to pad the meters (which even then don't look that amazing for disc). Try to look past the meters and actually see what SS accomplishes for the raid, on some fights it's impact is massive, on some (the type of aoe damage where disc already is bad) it does close to nothing but pad the meter a bit.

    I'm pretty sure you'll do just fine losing BT to instant casts, the GCD reduction isn't as crucial as you are playing it up to be. Where disc lacks in being able to play catchup on high damage it makes up for in being able to front-load in absorbs.
    See above why front-loading with absorbs isn't such a big deal (especially in 25 man) for much of the damage going out. No, the bt change isn't going to break disc in any way, it's a relatively small change, however it's still a retarded change aimed at the completely incorrect things and not addressing any of the issues/strengths with disc atm. It does absolutely nothing to our damage output, it does nothing to our ability to deal with periods of low/medium damage, it does nothing to our ability to deal with short bursts of aoe damage. Do you think that the relatively small niche, that is longer periods of heavy aoe damage, is where we need to be nerfed?

    If you want to be able to bomb the raid quickly, play holy. If disc wants absorbs then it has to sacrifice something.
    Do you seriously think that absorbs are the main perk of disc in 10 man right now? Do you really think that "balancing" a healer (especially one with another healing offspec) to be really fucking amazing in some situations and really fucking bad in some is the way to go (that's practically encouraging blizzard to balance priests around the fact that they change healing specs from fight to fight)? Some class diversity is good, too much is basically encouraging you to sit players for certain fights.

    If you want to HEAL play Holy, if you want to ABSORB play Disc. Stop bitching cuz you can't have it all.
    Or how about we actually heal, just like holy and every other healer, and have a niche being some absorbs since the option of making disc almost completely about absorbs (which isn't really the case right now, considering that DA's actual function is more like a heal than an absorb like PW:S/SS, it basically completely lacks the primary advantage of absorbs, the ability to prepare for damage) will result in the spec being way too strong on some fights and way too weak on others.


    All of you seem to speak about how disc should "sacrifice something" or be an "absorb healer". I hardly see how this change contributes to this, so exactly why do you think it's such a good change (if anything promotes you to weave less shields=absorbs during aoe damage)? This really just seems to be a common theme with all priests playing holy, to celebrate any disc nerfs, regardless of if they are sensible or not (and this change is about as sensible as more restrictions and longer cds for chakra stances).
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-16 at 01:16 AM.

  2. #102
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Nor Council, Twins or Iron is constant raidwide dmg ala Garalon, only "halfish" of the fights. Disc have their advantages in those fights for sure! Holy have their shiny moments aswell.

    Exactly what we are saying; Disc can't have it all: good absorb, good dmg, good utility AND great healing, and there are no Garalon fights where constant raidwide AoE is the key, so I don't see a problem with Disc healing being lower when they have so much other goodness going on and that they can make use for in every single fight.

    Don't tell me to "Stop bitching", I wasn't the one asking for "everything".

  3. #103
    Nor Council, Twins or Iron is constant raidwide dmg ala Garalon, only "halfish" of the fights. Disc have their advantages in those fights for sure! Holy have their shiny moments aswell.

    Exactly what we are saying; Disc can't have it all: good absorb, good dmg, good utility AND great healing, and there are no Garalon fights where constant raidwide AoE is the key, so I don't see a problem with Disc healing being lower when they have so much other goodness going on and that they can make use for in every single fight.
    There are several fights where the majority/the only important parts are heavy aoe raidwide damage, there are fights where disc overall is weak and not worth taking over other specs if you have access to them. Does disc have massive issues right now? No. Will the borrowed time change make disc an overall weak spec? No. Does the borrowed time change have any positive impact on the game/spec/balance? Definitely not.

    Don't tell me to "Stop bitching", I wasn't the one asking for "everything"
    and I am? Nice strawman, especially considering that I'd like to see nerfs/changes that'll have a far bigger negative impact on this than the borrowed time change. I don't think that disc should be good at everything (if anything I'd like way less reliance on our damage output and smartheals), I'm saying that keeping disc good at everything but one thing and making them awful at that thing isn't a good way to balance the game and the healers. This promotes class stacking, sitting players and very much bringing the class over the player. Specs having a niche/being slightly stronger/weaker in certain situations is fine, it promotes diversity, making some specs extremely strong/weak in certain situations isn't. This is especially the case with priests since it basically forces blizzard to make either both or one of disc/holy below average, simply because they are strong in different situations and the player has the option to swap between them.

  4. #104
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Talking to cookie is like talking to a brick wall.

    The only problem I currently see with disc is healing on the move, though this might be less of a problem in 25s. Even though raw output can be a bit low, the absorbs make up for it and balance that out.

    Being able to top off SS on two to three groups is immense. It helps because often it's not just a steady or burst AoE but also other abilities hitting the raid. Having shields free up other healers to stabalize or focus on individuals is something you are vastly understating. It is for this very reason that disc shouldn't ALSO have extremely powerful straight output. It would make absolutely no sense. Disc would then become the absolute best healer.

    So read what I wrote earlier one more time. Disc has to be evenly balanced. If you want to be able to dps while healing, it can't be as powerful as it is now. If you want to have good absorbs, it can't also come with stellar raw output.

    So again. If you want more output, play holy. But if you want absorbs and dps, play disc. If you want a change to disc then that's also fair, but with the current model disc should never have the raw output of other healers.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-04-16 at 01:17 PM.

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  5. #105
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nobodysbaby View Post
    Nor Council, Twins or Iron is constant raidwide dmg ala Garalon, only "halfish" of the fights. Disc have their advantages in those fights for sure! Holy have their shiny moments aswell.

    Exactly what we are saying; Disc can't have it all: good absorb, good dmg, good utility AND great healing, and there are no Garalon fights where constant raidwide AoE is the key, so I don't see a problem with Disc healing being lower when they have so much other goodness going on and that they can make use for in every single fight.

    Don't tell me to "Stop bitching", I wasn't the one asking for "everything".
    I wasn't saying it at you. I was saying it at everyone.

    Also, Holy is way better at healing Council, Twins and Iron Qon, not sure what you mean by they have advantages.


    Disc people also need to remember that Holy is only good at AoE or ST due to Chakra... everyone has some sort of limitations. But, I don't think anyone that loves Disc will be happy unless they are back to the 5.1 model of being the only Priest spec and destroying meters.

  6. #106
    Talking to cookie is like talking to a brick wall.
    Yes, actually asking you to read, respond and provide some reasoning is oh so terrible. We should all just rant on and on about how broken disc is and how the borrowed time change will solve everything!

    The only problem I currently see with disc is healing on the move, though this might be less of a problem in 25s. Even though raw output can be a bit low, the absorbs make up for it and balance that out.
    How do absorbs "make up" for raw output? That's different things good in different situations.

    Being able to top off SS on two to three groups is immense. It helps because often it's not just a steady or burst AoE but also other abilities hitting the raid. Having shields free up other healers to stabalize or focus on individuals is something you are vastly understating.
    and normal healing wouldn't? Shields are good for preparing the raid for bursts of damage, once the damage is going/has gone out shields have no advantage over normal healing.

    It is for this very reason that disc shouldn't ALSO have extremely powerful straight output. It would make absolutely no sense. Disc would then become the absolute best healer.
    Yes, cause healing output and absorbs are the two only perks a healing spec can have, right? Again, do you think that discs power in 10 man right now is due to spirit shell?

    So read what I wrote earlier one more time. Disc has to be evenly balanced. If you want to be able to dps while healing, it can't be as powerful as it is now. If you want to have good absorbs, it can't also come with stellar raw output.
    Learn to read? I haven't asked for stellar raw output, amazing absorbs and amazing dps (if anything I want that nerfed). I'm asking how the borrowed time change makes any of this any different. It doesn't, it's a shitty change, go cut atonement down to 50% and remove/remake spirit shell instead.

    So again. If you want more output, play holy. But if you want absorbs and dps, play disc. If you want a change to disc then that's also fair, but with the current model disc should never have the raw output of other healers.
    and it doesn't, with or without the borrowed time change.

    ---

    Disc people also need to remember that Holy is only good at AoE or ST due to Chakra... everyone has some sort of limitations. But, I don't think anyone that loves Disc will be happy unless they are back to the 5.1 model of being the only Priest spec and destroying meters.
    Do you think that giving each healing spec massive limitations/heavy weaknesses is a good way to balance things? I don't see how me thinking that the borrowed time change is retarded means that I want disc back to the 5.1 state (which was just as ridiculous in 25 man as atonement spam is in 10 man right now). It's really just hilarious how much every single holy player despises even the notion of a disc nerf not being the right way to go, or hell, disc players in general.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-16 at 03:09 PM.

  7. #107
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Limitations are needed. Did you know that WoW is one of the very few mmos with more than 2 types of healing classes? Most have 1. There's a reason for this. Because of silly things like how overpowered Paladins are, etc. It's impossible to balance. Everyone is already nearly exactly the same at this point, and there is very little variety between each class outside of Paladin absorb and Disc absorbs.

    Disc has a pure advantage/utility that no one has, ability to stop damage from even coming. How do you expect that Disc can do that and everything else? Then everyone would just bring Discs and nothing else.

    The borrowed time change is a long overdue "fix" IMO. It never made sense the way that it worked, and it was probably more focused on changing pvp and atonement than anything else.


    It's really just hilarious how much every single holy player despises even the notion of a disc nerf not being the right way to go, or hell, disc players in general.


    It's really just hilarious how this makes no sense. Holy priests despise a notion of a Disc nerf? What?

    I also have played Disc just as much as Holy, so your blanket statements aren't really logical.

  8. #108
    Limitations are needed. Did you know that WoW is one of the very few mmos with more than 2 types of healing classes? Most have 1. There's a reason for this. Because of silly things like how overpowered Paladins are, etc. It's impossible to balance. Everyone is already nearly exactly the same at this point, and there is very little variety between each class outside of Paladin absorb and Disc absorbs.
    Exactly, the healing specs can't be too different while still being possible to balance. Absorbs is hardly the only difference between the healing specs though, things like smartheals, mobility, hots, aoe design and several kinds of utility are all things that can be used to different the specs, without taking it to the extreme and making them way too strong/weak in some situations.

    Disc has a pure advantage/utility that no one has, ability to stop damage from even coming.
    How do you expect that Disc can do that and everything else? Then everyone would just bring Discs and nothing else.
    Where do you see me claiming that disc should be able to do everything just as well as every other class/spec? Is it so incredibly hard to not build a strawman? I am saying that disc is too strong in most aspects of the game right now, and very weak in one, making them even weaker in that niche isn't going to solve anything.

    The borrowed time change is a long overdue "fix" IMO. It never made sense the way that it worked, and it was probably more focused on changing pvp and atonement than anything else.
    I also have played Disc just as much as Holy, so your blanket statements aren't really logical.
    You thinking that the borrowed time change is or have a significant impact on atonement says a fair bit about how much you've played/know about disc. Possibly not reducing the cast time by 15% for one penance every 12 seconds doesn't mean shit, this nerf only has significance when it comes to our ability to deal with periods of heavy aoe damage, if anything this just makes atonement healing even stronger compared to our other options.

    It's really just hilarious how this makes no sense. Holy priests despise a notion of a Disc nerf? What?
    despises even the notion of a disc nerf not being the right way to go
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-16 at 03:44 PM.

  9. #109
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    I didn't say it was a significant nerf or will have a significant impact. I said, that was Blizzards focus, on Atonement. I doubt they really took into consideration the way that it was being actively used outside of Penance into a Smite. Blizzard isn't very smart most of the time.

    That statement still makes no sense. I read the bolded part, I'm not retarded. Try treating people with an ounce of respect and you might actually be able to have an intelligent conversation one of these days.

    I swear Cookie, wherever you post, you find someone to argue with and generally act very superior. Don't you see this recurring theme yet? I don't think the entire Priest community is wrong and you're right. You should really read the things you write before you hit that "Post" button.

  10. #110
    I didn't say it was a significant nerf or will have a significant impact. I said, that was Blizzards focus, on Atonement. I doubt they really took into consideration the way that it was being actively used outside of Penance into a Smite. Blizzard isn't very smart most of the time.
    and I am saying that said nerf will do basically nothing to atonement, but will affect other parts way more, hence I called it a poor choice of nerf/change. That was my initial statement, and what several holy priests on this forum decided was completely incorrect.

    That statement still makes no sense.
    Poor choice of words by me maybe, but I still think the meaning should be quite obvious. To rephrase, holy players get incredibly upset the second someone claims that a specific nerf disc isn't the right choice by blizzard.

    I read the bolded part, I'm not retarded. Try treating people with an ounce of respect and you might actually be able to have an intelligent conversation one of these days.
    If I actually got a single response towards my actual statements and not a strawman I might just do that, until then I don't find it likely that they'll be able to have an intelligent conversation.

    I swear Cookie, wherever you post, you find someone to argue with and generally act very superior. Don't you see this recurring theme yet? I don't think the entire Priest community is wrong and you're right. You should really read the things you write before you hit that "Post" button.
    I like to argue, if you don't you should probably stay away from forums:P. I hardly think of the priest community as one unity, and I also fail to see any posts where I was disagreeing with "the entire community", I'm just not scared to discuss things or make to my opinion known. I consider the fact that you (and others) might get upset by me disagreeing with you before I post, but I simply don't care.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-16 at 04:15 PM.

  11. #111
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    The funny thing is, you still don't get it. Moving along now.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    The funny thing is, you still don't get it. Moving along now.
    Oh I do get it, you just don't get me.

  13. #113
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Oh I do get it, you just don't get me.
    No, we get you. You argue to hear yourself speak and skim posts for bits to pull out of context while contradicting yourself the whole way along. And no, I'm not going to skim your posts and show you your contradictions over the past two or three pages. Like mazi said, moving along.

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  14. #114
    No, we get you. You argue to hear yourself speak and skim posts for bits to pull out of context while contradicting yourself the whole way along.
    No, that's not it, try again (it's really not that complicated):P.

    And no, I'm not going to skim your posts and show you your contradictions over the past two or three pages. Like mazi said, moving along.
    Too busy building strawmen?^^

  15. #115
    So who is loving all of the new atonement nerfs. Fucking stupid.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    So who is loving all of the new atonement nerfs. Fucking stupid.
    I do, atonement healing is stupid and should be nerfed (to the ground!):P. I would honestly prefer to see this taken even further (50-60% atonement healing, or a significantly increased mana cost), but in return some buffs to our "real" heals. This would also alleviate the issue with disc being far stronger in 10 than 25 man right now.
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-18 at 12:00 AM.

  17. #117
    KEY WORD BUFF to our "real" heals. That isnt happening.

  18. #118
    Well, we are too strong in 10 man right now (and will still be perfectly fine balance wise after this nerf) so I guess atonement needs more significant nerfs for that to happen. With this and the borrowed time nerf I think we are relatively close to becoming the worst 25 man healer though (holy is lacking utility without bringing anything special, disc will be lacking output without bringing enough to compensate, esp. on fights where barrier or SS is comparatively weak).
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-18 at 12:32 AM.

  19. #119
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Well, we are too strong in 10 man right now (and will still be perfectly fine balance wise after this nerf) so I guess atonement needs more significant nerfs for that to happen. With this and the borrowed time nerf I think we are relatively close to becoming the worst 25 man healer though (holy is lacking utility without bringing anything special, disc will be lacking output without bringing enough to compensate, esp. on fights where barrier or SS is comparatively weak).
    Holy's utility is the highest burst potential and overall pure throughput.

    Iron Qon H (last phase graph) - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8031&e=8278
    Primordius H (gg buffs) - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4657&e=5113

    Holy is nowhere near the worst 25 man healer to bring. What is with your Holy hatred?

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    Holy's utility is the highest burst potential and overall pure throughput.

    Iron Qon H (last phase graph) - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=8031&e=8278
    Primordius H (gg buffs) - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4657&e=5113

    Holy is nowhere near the worst 25 man healer to bring. What is with your Holy hatred?
    Which mistweavers (and to an extent even hpalas) do just as well/better. I don't hate holy (well, I kinda hate the chakra mechanic now and then), I just don't see a reason to bring one over a mistweaver (if you are looking for hps) or any other healing spec (if you are looking for utility). Holy doesn't need to be completely terrible to be the worst spec, it just has to be slightly worse than the alternatives.

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