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  1. #121
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Which mistweavers (and to an extent even hpalas) do just as well/better. I don't hate holy (well, I kinda hate the chakra mechanic now and then), I just don't see a reason to bring one over a mistweaver (if you are looking for hps) or any other healing spec (if you are looking for utility). Holy doesn't need to be completely terrible to be the worst spec, it just has to be slightly worse than the alternatives.
    I'm curious as to why you think a MW is better than a Holy Priest.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    I'm curious as to why you think a MW is better than a Holy Priest.
    Better/similar output, with a few added perks (revival, eminence, better mobility/survivability). I don't think that hpriests are that far behind mistweavers, but I fail to see what they bring that mistweavers don't.

  3. #123
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Better/similar output, with a few added perks (revival, eminence, better mobility/survivability). I don't think that hpriests are that far behind mistweavers, but I fail to see what they bring that mistweavers don't.
    Have you read this article? http://manaflask.com/en/articles/luu...er-evaluations

    I don't think Monks have better output overall. Mobility is pretty damn close, most of Holy is instant casts these days. Survivability, maybe.

    Divine Hymn is far better than Revival. As is our burst potential versus MW.

  4. #124
    Have you read this article? http://manaflask.com/en/articles/luu...er-evaluations

    I don't think Monks have better output overall. Mobility is pretty damn close, most of Holy is instant casts these days. Survivability, maybe.

    Divine Hymn is far better than Revival. As is our burst potential versus MW.
    Looking at logs mistweavers seem to have similar/slightly better numbers than holy, even on fights/parts with a lot of outgoing damage. That a mistweaver would be pulling 80-100k hps on a fight where a holy priest is pulling 150k (like the article suggests) is obviously completely false (assuming anywhere near equal skills). Monks healing burst is hardly weak either, but you are right that holys may be slightly better.

    Both divine hymn and revival are really quite weak raidcds (but yes DH is obviously better for actual healing), so I'd consider revival a better utility purely due to the aoe dispel (admittedly it's hardly that huge this tier). The article does have a point though, being able to spec disc (with the advantages it brings) is an advantage mistweavers don't have. Factoring in the fact that holy priests have the opportunity to spec disc on fights where there isn't a huge amount of outgoing damage might make priests as a whole pull ahead of mistweavers, not really sure if I'd like for us to be balanced that way but with disc and holy having such different strengths I guess there isn't much of a choice.

  5. #125
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    "If you take into account that holy does have plenty of throughput tools in Circle of Healing and Divine Hymn" - Hymn, agree, it's our raid CD, it should be strong, but CoH? Really? I don't think this guy/girl plays a Holy Priest too often reading this. Nothing about our fail Chakra system either. Kind of only how he heard a Hpri friend heal 150k hps in a fight, while the others were pushing only 90k hps (makes you wonder how old this is to?:P).

    "If your raid doesn’t need that raw healing throughput, then of course you can always revert back to discipline, and we all already know how beastly discipline priests are at the moment." - Yahaha... jaja, yall know it should be "If your raid doesn't need that extra dps, absorbs and PWB" in 90% of the fights;D

    "The crazy thing is that holy will also be be quite viable, especially with the acquisition of the priest 2 piece bonus" - made me wonder a bit to. Is this supposed to be read "Holy are in a great shape"?

    Lookies, Mazi (you know I respect you a lot) and everyone else, I've been Holy since early BC. I love the specc. It always did OK hps on the meters compared to the other healers, not superduper always but never terribad if you could play it right.

    Nowadays they lack flexibility (Chakras destroys it) and the balance between the spells is pretty meh. Sanc needs a buff. Renews should be taken out of the Chakra bonus system (hell, just remove that darn thing) and buffed (ofc not so much you'd want to spam it all day long). CoH is low on our healing done even though it's actually not cheap and on a CD. Compare CoH to PoM, even pre t15, and it just looks quite meh with only half the healing PoM does or even less with the bonus. You almost can't see the healthpools jump up when you cast CoH anymore, ffs I need an addon tracking who was hit Yeah, I do miss the beefy CoH, but PoM is still my fav spell already in BC, so I am not too annoyed, I just think some spells needs tuning. And not to forget our failing Guardian Spirit!

    The best things about Holy are good mobility, very fun raid CD's in LS/Hymn & mechanics and nice hps in high dmg fights - ofc the reactive playstyle is thrilling. One more thing, there are several viable ways of playing this specc! Renew rolling with Cascade refresh, PoH/PoM/CoH rotation, Mastery build, Haste build etcetc, and that... it's hard to achieve! Well done with that.

    I think devs could pay a little attention to Holy now, I feel they only are throwing pebbles with the Disc specc atm, when we have big rocks that needs to be lifted. Ofc Disc is a little messy since MoP launch, but they really should have the workforce to handle all classes and speccs better than this. Ow, I always fall into the Disc vs Holy arguments:/

    Too long, cba to read: I won't put so much trust in others when it comes to a specc Ive been playing/raiding every day for.... omg, what is it now... 6-7 years? 8??:O Even if it is an article on Manaflask. I can listen to advices and such, and gather knowledge by talking to other experienced Holy Priests, but I don't think these few lines describes the healing situation very good, atleast not the Hpri ones. Hpriest biggest issue (both when it comes to fun and usefullness) is the Chakra system, and I don't think Holy will become a popular specc again until it is removed. Seen too many Priests all over the forums, who quit Holy because of it.

    But hey, everyone experience things differently.

  6. #126
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    I just find it odd how some holy priests (example: myself and mazi) have no problems with the spec when others feel it's jacked up. Listening to some priests is like watching Fox News.

    And Dookie, Mazi is referring to burst hps, not overall. There's something to be said about the speed Holy can top up a raid.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  7. #127
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    I just find it odd how some holy priests (example: myself and mazi) have no problems with the spec when others feel it's jacked up. Listening to some priests is like watching Fox News.
    Yeah, and you can also question yourself why so many did abandon the specc, or why they don't raid as Holy (read they go Disc) when the specc is so fine;P It'll be better in comparison in 5.3, but still that Chakra... urgh. The only real issue that is truly important to, beside bugging GS.

    I am curious, why do you enjoy Chakrat Ramen?

  8. #128
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    People gravitate towards the easiest style of [insert anything] that yields good results.

    Disc is simply easier to look decent at. It has a high skill cap, sure, but the high amount of snipe heals allow an average disc to look decent. It's not rocket surgery.

    Do I think there are problems with disc? Yes. Do I think chakra is clunky? Yes. But it is FAR from debilitating. I like the IDEA of chakra, but think its implementation is poor. It hasn't stopped me from being successful and it's definitely not as bad as people make it out to be.
    Last edited by ramennoodleking; 2013-04-19 at 12:48 AM.

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  9. #129
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramennoodleking View Post
    Do I think chakra is clunky? Yes. But it is FAR from debilitating. I like the IDEA of chakra, but think its implementation is poor. It hasn't stopped me from being successful and it's definitely not as bad as people make it out to be.
    Then you still somewhat agree with me and many others. For "people" it can actually be that bad, so bad they don't want to play the specc, Ive seen this many times now on forums, saying they quit because of Chakra mechanic... So yeah, that bad for them... Not for you, and not for me (cause Im still sticking to Holy).

    How would you change Chakra?


  10. #130
    Brewmaster ramennoodleking's Avatar
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    I would get rid of it. I don't see any real reason to keep it.

    However, if it "must" be kept, heals need to be baseline regardless of state. After that, I'm not sure where you take it. Utility that doesn't directly effect output comes to mind.

    It's hard to say no to Yoo-Hoo chocolate drinks...the name literally beckons.
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  11. #131
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Chakra should have the Renew refresh + CoH cd in their respective states, the Holy Words,and not any sort of +healing

  12. #132
    Kaels had an interesting suggestion on the topic of Chakra. I'm not sure it is a good one, but it sure was interesting.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...2144?page=4#62
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Danner View Post
    Kaels had an interesting suggestion on the topic of Chakra. I'm not sure it is a good one, but it sure was interesting.
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...2144?page=4#62
    Sounds like it'd make the chakra mechanic way more interesting (you might actually feel like you gain something, instead of gimping yourself in one area when changing) for sure (especially with the 15 second cd), I don't really know if I'd prefer that to simply a removal (or chakra stances becoming so weak that they basically don't matter). At least keep holy away from the abomination that is atonement healing though.

    Chakra should have the Renew refresh + CoH cd in their respective states, the Holy Words,and not any sort of +healing
    Would there really ever be a reason to swap chakras like that, or is that basically your intent?:P
    Last edited by Cookie; 2013-04-19 at 01:12 PM.

  14. #134
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    "- Prayer of Mending: Will no longer jump to targets already affected by Prayer of Mending."

    This is something I would add high on my wishlist to, especially as we raid with atleast 2 and up to 3 priests and with my DI talent this is really annoying.

    I miss the nice old glyphs, and there are very few and uninteresting choices for Holy atm. I especially enjoyed GS glyph (and it would line up better with the buggy (often fails when used reactively) version we have today and ofc the PoH glyph. Kael had some nice ideas for glyphs.

    I want the stances removed completly, I don't see a reason why we can not have both Serenity and Sanctuary but with a shared CD (if theres a Sanc placed the CD for Serenity would be 30s etc). Then we could contribute as good as the rest of the bunch on tankhealing and that would feel guuud for a change. PoM+CoH on tanks in all it's glory, often I wish I had Serenity+FH/GH to help out more even in AoE situations!

    Hmmmm.... hmhm, maybe.....;

    Instead of stances I would like Chakra as a throughput medium CD, Holy lacks that, and then it could be about ST/AoE if they absolutly want it to. That would make it a lot more fun & challangeing to juggle and you won't feel restrained by the bonuses 100% uptime. Imagine Council for example; Frostbite and tank dmg, I would choose to use the ST CD as Frostbite hits and heal debuffs+tanks. Inc AoE I would ofc choose AoE Chakra CD. Ji'kun; tank dmg, Caw and pool soakers ST CD, Quills AoE CD, Those CD's should not be too powerful, I believe keeping it on a +-20%'ish lvl would be ok. Perhaps heals behaiving in different ways depending on how you choose to, but something more creative than today. I imagine 30s(??) CD with a 15s duration could be cool. How fun wouldn't that be instead of being trapped in one Chakra always? Much more reactive, you can switch the exact moment it is needed for 15s of a little extra power, and after that go back to "balance" for as long as you wish. I think this is the feeling they wanted to create from the start.

    "But this sounds too much like the current Chakra", I would say no, because you don't have to push any Chakra atleast half of the time you play, you can choose to stay completly balanced as long as you like. I could however see this being a step down for Hpri in 25's where they are in Sanctuary Chakra a lot. It would for sure be great for Hpri in 10 mans though. Hm, it's hard to come up with something great, but I would for sure want a "resource" instead of a restriction.

    But as I said, I wouldn't miss Chakras a bit if they were removed, and they aren't needed to create balance for Holy Priest either.
    Last edited by nobodysbaby; 2013-04-19 at 10:34 AM.

  15. #135
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Would there really ever be a reason to swap chakras like that, or is that basically your intent?:P
    There would be incentive. There are many times when I wish I could have HW:Serenity for topping people off in between AoE phases. The CoH cd wouldn't be a huge loss and a worthy tradeoff for assisted tank healing with Renew refresh and HW:Serenity IMO. And then the few situations where you'd use HW:Sanc, you can swap to that and have the CoH cd for high damage phases.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazi View Post
    There would be incentive. There are many times when I wish I could have HW:Serenity for topping people off in between AoE phases. The CoH cd wouldn't be a huge loss and a worthy tradeoff for assisted tank healing with Renew refresh and HW:Serenity IMO. And then the few situations where you'd use HW:Sanc, you can swap to that and have the CoH cd for high damage phases.
    Fair enough, I guess I underestimate the impact it has in 25 man. I mainly do 10 mans and I don't think I'd ever swap renew refresh(+serenity) for the CoH cd reduction here.

  17. #137
    Chakra for me really down to losing the flexibility of what used to be the holy spec.
    In TBC we had 20 different buttons to hit; and healing was really all about pattern matching.
    A good healer picked the right buttons, and thus healed more, while a bad healer picked the wrong ones, and healed less.
    Since healers really weren't that powerful back then, having enough HPS was a big deal. And a holypriest that did it right, felt really strong. While a holypriest that did it wrong, felt really weak.
    Skill mattered, and a good priest could make a lot of difference, as the healing done per mana spent really was hugely different from player to player. Those days were really fun. Playing holy was exactly as complicated as you needed it to be, but to excel it was actually rather complicated.

    Chakra is ultimately also affecting your output. Half your arsenal, is by nature awesome, and half your arsenal is by nature horribly suboptimal at any time. Swicth chakra, and you switch which half is good and bad. As such, the flexibility of having 20 buttons and doing pattern matching is nowadays reduced to hitting a few buttons in a cycle. It feels like something a cast rotation macro can do. And frankly, that isn't the spec I fell in love with. The spec I fell in love with had an almost infinite amount of different healing styles, and the fight you were on dictated which was good and which was bad. Adapting to the situation; that was how holy should be played.

    Then came cata. How to play holy: bind "Heal" on your #1 mouse button. Cast it. Never cast anything else. Repeat until the next content patch. Worst point in healing history, for pretty much all specs.

    Yeah, sure, things have gotten a bit better since then. As we got more mana in cata, we could afford to hit more than 1 button. And mop actually managed to avoid that pitfall by not making mana more scarce than gold. But I sure miss the flexibility of tbc.

    So yeah, I think Holy would be better off without chakra. Totally agreeing with Drena there!

    --

    But if you really want to keep chakra; it needs to do something interesting.
    The suggestion by Kaels I think has a few issues with it; but it is doing something right: it doesn't limit your spell choices, and if will feel like a healing bonus rather than a healing penalty. That kind of thinking is what Holy needs.

    Sadly however, Ghostcrawler does not have a holypriest alt.
    As such, I don't think anything remotely interesting will happen to chakra until the next expansion at earliest.

    Luckily, that may only be a year away!
    Non-discipline since 2006. Also: fails. "Chakra, when the walls fell"

  18. #138
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cookie View Post
    Fair enough, I guess I underestimate the impact it has in 25 man. I mainly do 10 mans and I don't think I'd ever swap renew refresh(+serenity) for the CoH cd reduction here.
    Yeah I can see that. I never do 10m. In 25 CoH is a pretty decent chunk of healing and it's the easiest way to heal people semi-spread out (and snipe, lol).

  19. #139
    Brewmaster Mazi's Avatar
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    Sure, I will gladly more than double my Divine Hymn healing.

    Divine Hymn now targets 12 raid members (up from 5) each time it heals when used in a 25-player instance.

  20. #140
    Bloodsail Admiral nobodysbaby's Avatar
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    The Hymn/Tranq change makes so much sense to me. PW:B, AM's, SLT's etc are all much more powerful in 25 man compared to 10's aswell.

    But they forgot to change HoH;P

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