Page 16 of 22 FirstFirst ...
6
14
15
16
17
18
... LastLast
  1. #301
    Thanks Fierydemise, I'll have a look and see which I find easier. I've been putting off looking under the hood of Shadowcraft and Simulationcraft for a while, it's a about time I take that plunge... The only problem with getting the answer from Shadowcraft/Simcraft will be that it will give me a numerical answer for what it is, rather than a haste-dependent formula for what it should be (which I'd prefer, since I could plug it into a spreadsheet and forget about it, rather than it being another 'EP value' like constant I need to adjust in the future...)

    Very valid question why I could possibly need this! Nothing to do with RPPM trinkets (and definitely nothing to do with Talisman, thankfully!). I've moved to try to improve my spreadsheet modelling of the old trinkets (and the VP one), and was just wondering what's the best attack rate to use for the trinket activation.

    I thought that since my spreadsheet gives the EP value of RPPM trinkets depending on the fight length, I really ought to do the same for the non RPPM trinkets... And that led me to the question I asked. But really planning to stop after that. My whole aim was to get a better understanding of the RPPM mechanics and sense-check Shadowcraft. I suspect as of now I'm only still going due to inertia and a nerdy need to improve a spreadsheet...
    Last edited by wimp; 2013-04-19 at 08:25 PM.

  2. #302
    I made some fine tuning adjustments to Shadowcraft a month or so ago. The ui on mmo-mumble doesn't reflect it since it was done at the same time as a few other experimental changes.

    So make sure you use dazer's repo for slightly more accurate modeling and install it yourself, if you're invested to see how it works.

  3. #303
    Thanks Pathal.

    Some further questions along the same lines (stuff which theorycrafters will have figured out long ago - I realise I'm arriving rather late to this party, so please bear with my ignorance...)

    Can deadly poison (ticks/instant damage) proc trinkets?
    Can the epic meta gem lightning strike hits proc trinkets?
    Mutilate: do the trinkets proc from 'mutilate', or from each of the mainhand and offhand mutilate attacks?
    Shadow blades: does this replace melee attacks, or is it in addition to melee attacks? And either way: can shadow blade attacks proc trinkets?
    Can venomous wounds proc trinkets?

  4. #304
    I can only speak for Shadowcraft.

    It depends on if it's RPPM or otherwise. If it's RPPM Shadowcraft uses code based on Hamlet's math and a few other sources that simplifies the uptime calculations, and it's actually cited in the code.

    If it's not RPPM, it uses a separate method (can't remember the names right now, but I believe they're called "get_mh_procs_per_second" and the like). Each proc has it's own type (all_attacks, melee_attacks, etc) which allows the procs per second method to determine frequency. The rest should be reasonably easy to figure out.

  5. #305
    Thanks again Pathal (and the questions was about the non RPPM ones).

    As mentioned a few posts back, I was working the variation on EP values of the old style trinkets (the non RPPM ones) as a function of fight length. Since we'd done this for the RPPM trinkets, my spreadsheet felt unfinished without that work...

    Anyway, please find below the results. Nothing new here for theorycrafters (I expect Shadowcraft, Simcraft and the like all take these things into account). But I'm sharing since it provides a nice visualisation for the discussion over the last couple of pages about waiting for RPPM trinkets to make the bad luck protection guarantee a proc on pull. It also compares EP values of the non RPPM trinkets over different fight lengths.



    A few notes:

    1) The behaviour of non RPPM trinkets is pretty accurately modelled from this graph: for a given fight, they *will* proc soon after they go off cooldown.
    2) The behaviour of the RPPM trinket is much less predictable for any given fight (Ghostcrawler would argue more interesting): the curves just show their 'average' EP value after x amount of time - this curve is the statistical value, and what you'd see if you compared many different fights. Their actual value will vary from fight to fight - with probability to vary decreasing with the size of the variation.
    3) This graph assumes you've waited long enough to guarantee an RPPM trinket proc on pull.
    4) This calculation spreads out the value of bloodlust/heroism over the entire fight. Using bloodlust on the pull would push the value of trinkets with an agility proc higher up (and the greater the proc, the higher up the EP value would be pushed up).
    5) The graph above only shows EP values for fights between 5 and 15 minutes long. I didn't include the first five minutes in the same graph for clarity. For completeness, here is the same graph for the first five minutes:

    Last edited by wimp; 2013-04-21 at 04:59 PM.

  6. #306
    So yesterday i got Rune of Re-Origination, i've been using Ranataki's Soul Charm and Valor trinket, but had hude hit over cap, ~11% hit with it, so i changed valor trinket to rune and got rid of it, reforged to haste more for bigger uptime for more rune procs, am i doing right? armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Baksis/simple

  7. #307
    Do we know yet if the proc rate of the RPPM trinkets will increase with item upgrades in 5.3 or will it be static to its dropped itemlevel?

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Do we know yet if the proc rate of the RPPM trinkets will increase with item upgrades in 5.3 or will it be static to its dropped itemlevel?
    All the RPPM proc rates are independent of ilvl (except for RoRo).

  9. #309
    Im really confused, Renataki is simming really low in Shadowcraft but in this thread it seems like its one of two bis trinkets. what is the reason for that? Im overcapped with expertise so that is probably why its so low for me but still..

    Another question, With my current gear(ekhy on ravencrest EU) should i keeping using my valor trinket even if i get bad juju+bloodlust combo? Its just really confusing with all the different sites saying different things on this matter.

  10. #310
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    In a field, somewhere
    Posts
    6,126
    Quote Originally Posted by fejsrapr View Post
    Im really confused, Renataki is simming really low in Shadowcraft but in this thread it seems like its one of two bis trinkets. what is the reason for that? Im overcapped with expertise so that is probably why its so low for me but still..
    It isn't being simmed in shadowcraft, shadowcraft doesn't simulate anything it formulates it. You can read the differences here. I know nothing of the shadowcraft back end, but it seems obvious to me that it doesn't work with RSC right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by fejsrapr View Post
    Another question, With my current gear(ekhy on ravencrest EU) should i keeping using my valor trinket even if i get bad juju+bloodlust combo? Its just really confusing with all the different sites saying different things on this matter.
    Really depends on whose maths you go with and whose stat weights you go with.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Bagsis View Post
    So yesterday i got Rune of Re-Origination, i've been using Ranataki's Soul Charm and Valor trinket, but had hude hit over cap, ~11% hit with it, so i changed valor trinket to rune and got rid of it, reforged to haste more for bigger uptime for more rune procs, am i doing right? armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Baksis/simple
    The RoRO isn't a good trinket. First by design, second for our class. While you can say for assassination for example "mastery > haste" given all conditions and such, the actual stat values depend a lot on the amount you have of all the three.

    It's more like "the more haste you have, the better mastery becomes" and so on. RoRO just cancels two of your ratings to boost the third; but doing this it artficially lowers the value of the boosted stat hence giving you a smaller dps increase than the one you can imagine or common sense woul make you think about.

    RoRO is a bad trinket, mostly because of our class mechanics. Looking around the internet for comments on the trinket for other classes, i've seen the only one making a good use of it the the monk dps. Druids and Hunters tend to avoid its use too.

  12. #312
    Shadowcraft is showing me that 522 Bad Juju is a DPS decrease over 510 Bottle for Assassination. Is this just a modeling problem or just that Bad Juju 522 is in fact worse?

    Asking this cause wimp's list shows Juju as being a decent amount better than Bottle.
    Last edited by whathump; 2013-04-25 at 07:36 PM.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    Shadowcraft is showing me that 522 Bad Juju is a DPS decrease over 510 Bottle for Assassination. Is this just a modeling problem or just that Bad Juju 522 is in fact worse?

    Asking this cause wimp's list shows Juju as being a decent amount better than Bottle.
    With a certain level of haste. If you dont have any rppm trinkets or the LMG, mastery pulls nicely ahead of haste which devalues that trinket.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    With a certain level of haste. If you dont have any rppm trinkets or the LMG, mastery pulls nicely ahead of haste which devalues that trinket.
    I have 502 talisman and the legendary meta already. My haste is at 18.12%. Should've included that, sorry.

  15. #315
    I've observed that almost every good rogue with meta+2rppm trinkets stays true to mastery>haste>crit because on encounters where you have to switch targets your poison damage is most likely more important than a bit more single target dmg. If you go to haste>mastery>crit you may gain a simulated 500-2k dps (depending on your gear at this point) but will loose much poison damage and thus multitarget/switch damage.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    I've observed that almost every good rogue with meta+2rppm trinkets stays true to mastery>haste>crit because on encounters where you have to switch targets your poison damage is most likely more important than a bit more single target dmg. If you go to haste>mastery>crit you may gain a simulated 500-2k dps (depending on your gear at this point) but will loose much poison damage and thus multitarget/switch damage.
    Venemous wounds benefits from more haste so it works two ways, though the mastery is probably still better :P

    Also, most of the multi target fights are relatively small and usually demand rupture tabbing, in which case, is mastery that much better? You're not FOK to spread the DP dot, instead going for 3-5CP ruptures and switching frequently. I would imagine, DP instant and venomous wound would rank highly.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Venemous wounds benefits from more haste so it works two ways, though the mastery is probably still better :P
    Uh, I can't see any possible reason VW benefits from haste...

  18. #318
    More haste -> more ruptures -> more VW.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    Shadowcraft is showing me that 522 Bad Juju is a DPS decrease over 510 Bottle for Assassination. Is this just a modeling problem or just that Bad Juju 522 is in fact worse?

    Asking this cause wimp's list shows Juju as being a decent amount better than Bottle.
    Making an exception to the usual practice of not answering to 'which trinket should I use' questions since this more of a question about the modelling and so an interesting one:

    For an average fight length, 522 Bad Juju is always (statistically) better than 510 bottle if you wait ~5 minutes since your last trinket proc before a pull. This is the case even with 0% haste, and more so as your haste increases. Please note the 'statistically' part of the sentence: bottle is more reliable. Bad Juju will have more variation (amazing in some fights, a bit rubbish on others). Averaged out, it comes ahead of bottle. But if you'd rather have consistency, you could stick with bottle.

    Bear in mind that Shadowcraft models a great many number of things, but its trinket model isn't quite as refined as the one on this thread. For example, it doesn't account for trinket value variations with fight lengths (and so nor does it account for the increase in EP value if waiting 5 mins before a pull).

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by theherecy View Post
    Venemous wounds benefits from more haste so it works two ways, though the mastery is probably still better :P

    Also, most of the multi target fights are relatively small and usually demand rupture tabbing, in which case, is mastery that much better? You're not FOK to spread the DP dot, instead going for 3-5CP ruptures and switching frequently. I would imagine, DP instant and venomous wound would rank highly.
    And every target switch resets your swing timer, which also decreases the value of haste, as it decreases your autoattack and thus poison damage.

    I don't know the hard maths behind this reasoning, but feel free to browse Method's rogues for example. Mastery>Haste>Crit seems to be the way to go.

    I also guess that going with mastery will decrease maximum dps but increase average dps as its less rng, while a haste build relies on the unreliable rppm stuff.

    Good rogues always go for safer and reliable damage rather than potential higher dps.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •