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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahdehl View Post
    YAnd would the graph values change depending on what combination of trinkets I'm using?
    Using one trinket may make you reforge differently, i.e. different haste levels (though this can't and shouldn't be modelled). Talisman of BL will impact any other rppm trinkets by providing haste so this should factored in to your thoughts, it is also one of the highest rated trinkets

  2. #362
    Stood in the Fire
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    Assassination rogue with 510 ilvl~ would you say 489 Bottle > 502 Bad Juju or is it worth going for Juju despite the lower RPPM of a lfr verison of the trinket?

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Flandersson View Post
    Assassination rogue with 510 ilvl~ would you say 489 Bottle > 502 Bad Juju or is it worth going for Juju despite the lower RPPM of a lfr verison of the trinket?
    Depends, is your other trinket on the rppm system? It's still a toss up though I would say the juju edges out.

  4. #364
    Stood in the Fire
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    VP trinket is 2nd

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Flandersson View Post
    VP trinket is 2nd
    Best to check shadowcraft or simc. I'm not used to unupgraded normal bottle nor lfr trinkets, so it wouldn't be prudent to make a decision. I also don't know your gear..

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Ahdehl View Post
    Ya, those were the graphs I was referring to. What I was wondering is if it was possible to get the graphs with the 541 versions of the trinkets? And would the graph values change depending on what combination of trinkets I'm using?
    @ Adehl: sure, see below, though I don't think this will add much to the conversation: the curves still look the same, just higher up on the graph. As can be seen from the graph, for the the 541 trinkets: renataki's > Bad juju > Talisman for all fight durations.



    Regarding your other question, the only trinket which affects the value of other trinkets is the Talisman, as it procs haste, which in turn increases the proc chance of RPPM trinkets. Our current trinket list here (this is a link) lists the value of trinkets used both with and without a talisman - as you can see, the effects are very small.

    ***

    @ people asking which trinket to use: this list (this is a link) has all the trinkets, from un-upgraded bottle and relic to heroic thunderforged ToT trinkets. Additionally, as pointed above, we also have shadowcraft, which has been updated and is now modelling trinkets fairly accurately (except for RoRo, which no modelling tool is simulating accurately for the reasons given elsewhere on this thread - and I understand simulation tools aren't either).

  7. #367
    Perfect, just what I was looking for wimp. Thanks for all the work you guys have put in

  8. #368
    Dreadlord Vanthem's Avatar
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    I believe your trinket list link is currently broken Wimp. At least for me it is. I tried using Chrome/IE to get it open, but it wont.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanthem View Post
    I believe your trinket list link is currently broken Wimp. At least for me it is. I tried using Chrome/IE to get it open, but it wont.
    Using Chrome and opens it just fine,just tested it again to see if something was wrong but no problem at all.Could be from your side.

  10. #370
    Dreadlord Vanthem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinos View Post
    Using Chrome and opens it just fine,just tested it again to see if something was wrong but no problem at all.Could be from your side.
    Blah. Guess it is then. I tried IE and Chrome, it wouldnt pop up. Might have to clear my cache.

    EDIT: Yeah, cleared my Cache and the list now works. Sorry for the confusion! :P
    Last edited by Vanthem; 2013-05-07 at 02:15 AM.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by wimp View Post
    @ Adehl: sure, see below, though I don't think this will add much to the conversation: the curves still look the same, just higher up on the graph. As can be seen from the graph, for the the 541 trinkets: renataki's > Bad juju > Talisman for all fight durations.



    Regarding your other question, the only trinket which affects the value of other trinkets is the Talisman, as it procs haste, which in turn increases the proc chance of RPPM trinkets. Our current trinket list here (this is a link) lists the value of trinkets used both with and without a talisman - as you can see, the effects are very small.

    ***

    @ people asking which trinket to use: this list (this is a link) has all the trinkets, from un-upgraded bottle and relic to heroic thunderforged ToT trinkets. Additionally, as pointed above, we also have shadowcraft, which has been updated and is now modelling trinkets fairly accurately (except for RoRo, which no modelling tool is simulating accurately for the reasons given elsewhere on this thread - and I understand simulation tools aren't either).
    I were already wondering why Talisman of Bloodlust value suddenly dropped significantly in shadowcraft and you had already provided an answer and a bit more. In the past shadowcraft suggested Talisman of bloodlust even at 522 version being better than most of the other trinkets (paired with either renataki's / bad juju and the legendary metagem) but now it's below 522 bad juju for me, at least.

    Thank you for the awesome work you and others aswell have been doing!
    Main: Rogue - Alt: Balance Druid

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by wimp View Post
    Additionally, as pointed above, we also have shadowcraft, which has been updated and is now modelling trinkets fairly accurately (except for RoRo, which no modelling tool is simulating accurately for the reasons given elsewhere on this thread - and I understand simulation tools aren't either).
    I briefly skimmed through this thread, and the only modeling issue with "simulation tools" (presuming this includes simc) concerning the Rune of Reorigination was a statement that simc does not support negative stats nor variable bonuses. The former part has not been true for a very long time, and the latter part has never been true as far as I know.

    To my current understanding, Rune of Reorigination is modeled as accurately as you (as a Rogue) would expect any other RPPM trinket in simc to be modeled. There is a slight caveat to this for specs that use rating multipliers, but this does not affect Rogues. If you know of any other issues that affect the modeling of RoR that we apparently(?) have for the trinket, could you please reply so I can fix them?

    Note that the default action lists for Assassination and Combat have not been in any way updated to support behavioral changes when you have a Rune of Reorigination proc up. I recently changed Subtlety default action list to game a mastery-based RoR proc for supercharged SnD and Rupture, which resulted in a decent DPS upgrade compared to the sample T15H profile we had for Subtlety at that point. Nowadays, the sample profile runs with Juju/Rentaki (with a lot more DPS).

  13. #373
    @ Navv: my understanding simc was not modelling the Rune of Re-origination (henceforth RoRo) accurately came from that same post somewhere on this thread that stated simc didn't support negative stats: If that's no longer the case, I don't see a reason why RoRo wouldn't be simulated as accurately as all the other trinkets, and I contritely retract the slanderous remarks against this great simulation tool!

    The difficulty with trying to model rune is the variation in the changing value of the different stats when you change the value of some of those stats. For the most part, we ignore those changes, as they are deemed to be reasonably small. But that approximation doesn't work with RoRo, as the drastic change to the value of those 3 stats significantly affect the value of those stats (the value of the increased stat is decreased and the values of the two decreased stats are increased. Significantly).

    I expect simc doesn't have those difficulties, since as a simulation, once two stats go to 0 for 10 seconds, the simulation should plod along nicely with those new stat values, and everything that change signifies (so, for instance, if haste is decreased energy regeneration will be slower for those 10 seconds etc). It would be great if you could confirm that is indeed the case!

    As you point out, even if RoRo is simulated correctly, this conversation won't affect the BiS gear: RoRo should remain below Renataki's and Bad Juju.

  14. #374
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    I fear I must apologise here, I believe it may have been me to suggest that simulationcraft did not support negative stats but it was simply that I was not using correct syntax.

    Sorry, simc people!
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  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by wimp View Post
    I expect simc doesn't have those difficulties, since as a simulation, once two stats go to 0 for 10 seconds, the simulation should plod along nicely with those new stat values, and everything that change signifies (so, for instance, if haste is decreased energy regeneration will be slower for those 10 seconds etc). It would be great if you could confirm that is indeed the case!
    Simc treats it as a "normal" stat trinket that procs an effect that reduces 2 of your stats by their respective stat value (this includes temporary buffs and the like), and increases the third stat by twice the sum of the two reduced stats. In the case of haste rating, everything is updated, e.g., energy regen, casting time/GCD (not relevant for Rogues), next applied (applied being used loosely here) dots tick time, and remaining swing speed for your on-going auto attacks. These changes are also immediately reflected on your pets, presuming your pet inherits haste from the owner.

  16. #376
    Ok, but a problem with rogues is that bringing two stats at 0 rating and boosting that much the other changes a lot the EP of the stats; the calculations on simc do reflect this? Asking for clarification.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Ok, but a problem with rogues is that bringing two stats at 0 rating and boosting that much the other changes a lot the EP of the stats; the calculations on simc do reflect this? Asking for clarification.
    The amount of stat that we add to calculate stat weights can affect the behavior of the trinket. I.e., if you have balanced stats, and add 1000 crit rating (our default delta), you will be seeing a crit-positive RoR proc. And most certainly this has an effect on the stat weights. Same behavior is present in reforge plots, which look interesting to say the least for some specs using the trinket.

    EDIT: Actually, scratch all that. I checked the scaling/stat initialization code and the stat weight deltas do not affect the behavior of Rune of Reorigination at all. Confusingly enough, reforge plot stats do affect it. So I suppose the question is, what should be the behavior in this case?
    Last edited by navv; 2013-05-07 at 01:18 PM.

  18. #378
    FWIW: After playing around with Shadowcraft yesterday with my 4pce combat rogue, at 522 Ilvl I could not get higher number combinations than the vp trinket + rentakis.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by navv View Post
    EDIT: Actually, scratch all that. I checked the scaling/stat initialization code and the stat weight deltas do not affect the behavior of Rune of Reorigination at all. Confusingly enough, reforge plot stats do affect it. So I suppose the question is, what should be the behavior in this case?
    Well, simc should check if the trinket procced - recalculate stat EPs - run 10 secs with new EPs - return to old EPs as soon the proc fades.
    At least is how i see it, don't know if it's correct and/or possible, since old trinkets could be easily reduced to a "average static stat" while RoRo basically screws all that.

    Also: given the balanced stats scenario, if you have another proc which raise your crit by X, you should see RoRo proccing always crit rating. And iirc, even on the balanced stats scenario RoRo runs an artifical stat priority to choose which stat to raise during the proc.

  20. #380
    I might be wrong, but it sounds like there are two parallel conversations going on here regarding stat deltas. Which I suspect it's because Navv is coming from a simulation perspective, whereas other people on this thread are perhaps more used to a modelling perspective.

    The modelling approach needs to know the value of stats (haste, crit, mastery), which will be different once the trinket procs. Just knowing the uptime isn't enough for this trinket, because the value of the stats changes when you change the value of the stats. The questions about whether RoRo modelling take into account the changes in stat values are coming from this perspective (where we work out stat values before proc, work out stat values after proc, work out uptime, use this info to work out the trinket value).

    The simulation approach is a bit different. It simulates dps based on inputs (like your gear, your buffs etc). For rune, very roughly (and written from the point of view of someone who has no idea how simc works), it will be calculating dps as normal before RoRo procs (based on the stats you currently have due to your gear and buffs). Once RoRo procs, it will alter the value of your stats accordingly, and it will continue calculating your dps. What we call the 'EP values of stats after the trinket procs' don't go into the calculation. I don't expect Simc works out damage based on the relative value of different stats (either before or after things proc). Even though I doubt it uses them, simc will work out the relative values of the different stats if you ask it nicely.

    Quote Originally Posted by navv View Post
    I checked the scaling/stat initialization code and the stat weight deltas do not affect the behavior of Rune of Reorigination at all. Confusingly enough, reforge plot stats do affect it. So I suppose the question is, what should be the behavior in this case?
    I'm not sure what you mean by stat weight deltas. If I ignore the word 'weight' in there, then I'd expect you mean the deltas in the stats for the scaling (which should be affected by RoRo in the same way the reforge deltas are). The only stat weight delta I can think of is the margin of error in the stat weights... which shouldn't really be affected by RoRo.

    Just in case I'm missunderstanding and you meant something different, here's what I'd expect to happen to stats and their weights with RoRo (only talking about haste, crit and mastery, of course):

    • RoRo will encourage uniform stats. So the value of the lower stats will be pushed up.
    • Interesting things will happen if the deltas take you to a point where a stat which wasn't previously the highest becomes the highest. This could happen faster reforging (if, say, you take x from the highest stat and add it to the second highest stat) than just by adding x to the second highest stat (as is the case when Simc works out scaling). But the results should be the same in both cases: interesting things will happen when you change the order of the stats.

    Short answer: unless I'm missing Navv's point, in SimC the stat weights (and their deltas) shouldn't be affecting RoRo. But RoRo will affect the stat weights (and their deltas).

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