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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Anyhow, what I meant to say, is if you have a hit/mastery piece you would reforge the hit rating off for crit. Or if you had a hit/crit piece you would reforge the hit away instead of crit.

    Basically you gain a lot of your second best stat. Sorry for the outright wrong information there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Vicious Talisman of the Shado Pan Assault (converting hit to crit) - 6026 EP
    So you meant (converting hit to mastery) on the Shado Pan, right? And if so, did you calc the EP with mastery or with crit?

  2. #42
    Sort of on topic here (related to new vs. old trinkets)..

    I got lucky enough to get a Thunderforged Renataki's from a coin on Tuesday and so far I like it in conjunction with my double updated heroic Bottle, having replaced my double upgraded heroic Terror in the Mists. I know I'm wildly over expertise cap, and I'm far from a math whiz so I don't know how it comes out number-wise but I'm going to play with it for the forseeable future.
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by jsz View Post
    Sort of on topic here (related to new vs. old trinkets)..

    I got lucky enough to get a Thunderforged Renataki's from a coin on Tuesday and so far I like it in conjunction with my double updated heroic Bottle, having replaced my double upgraded heroic Terror in the Mists. I know I'm wildly over expertise cap, and I'm far from a math whiz so I don't know how it comes out number-wise but I'm going to play with it for the forseeable future.
    Just so you know, Shadowcraft is putting the Shado Pan trinket at +1716 dps over Thunderforged Renataki's in your current gear.

    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/us...jvK7pSVUesvgE=

    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/us...Lu0pVuesL9Bg==

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Just so you know, Shadowcraft is putting the Shado Pan trinket at +1716 dps over Thunderforged Renataki's in your current gear.
    Piggybacking on this: SC's current settings won't override socket bonuses that don't help you, and if you really want that Renataki's or can't afford the trinket, you can drop your non-reds to red gems for extra agility in your +expertise socket bonus items. I'm thinking Renataki's is really only going to be useful for Cats unless something changes (as they can plan ahead and apply bleeds, likely buffed with TF, at max stacks).

  5. #45

    Should i go for Shado Pan friendly trinket?

    Im right now using N Bottle of Infite Stars and Dominator Signet

    Should i go for N Bottle of Infinite Stars and Shado Pan Assault Trinket?

    Do they share the CD for proc or they can both proc on the same time?

    Thanks

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Jekkvallar View Post
    Im right now using N Bottle of Infite Stars and Dominator Signet

    Should i go for N Bottle of Infinite Stars and Shado Pan Assault Trinket?

    Do they share the CD for proc or they can both proc on the same time?

    Thanks
    It's a very good trinket, they can both proc. Use your discretion if you need to replace neck/wrists.

  7. #47
    The Shado Pan trinket is BiS until heroic ToT. So yes, buy it.

  8. #48
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    As Maelstrom51 said. It's very good (4th BiS including heroic trinkets.)

    The best 3 are:

    HC Talisman of Bloodlust
    HC Rune of Re Origination
    HC Bottle of Infinite Stars

    In that order.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    As Maelstrom51 said. It's very good (4th BiS including heroic trinkets.)

    The best 3 are:

    HC Talisman of Bloodlust
    HC Rune of Re Origination
    HC Bottle of Infinite Stars

    In that order.
    That's for Combat.
    For Mut, it's VP trinket > HM Bad Juju = HM Soul Charm, and for Sub, it (should be) VP trinket > HM Soul Charm >= HM Talisman.

    So yes, shell out for the VP trinket. It's also the only piece on the entire VP list that wouldn't be placeholder gear.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    That's for Combat.
    For Mut, it's VP trinket > HM Bad Juju = HM Soul Charm, and for Sub, it (should be) VP trinket > HM Soul Charm >= HM Talisman.

    So yes, shell out for the VP trinket. It's also the only piece on the entire VP list that wouldn't be placeholder gear.
    Any source on this? Shadowcraft is showing Rune of Re-Origination with Talisman of Bloodlust as as the best at BiS gear levels for Assassination. At least last time I checked, its been a bit over a day, something could have changed.

  11. #51
    It is a strong trinket.

    Assuming you use cooldowns at the startof a fight, you will do very high damage whichever spec you play. You also can +500 reforged Mastery and lots of hit meaning you can probably reforge hit off everywhere else.

    Last night the proc only had about 1/2 the uptime that the HC Bottle had (22% v 41%) but the proc is obviously much stronger.

    Overall I think it is a very solid trinket and would recommend it over most normal trinkets especially given that some are completely broken (e.g. Rentaki's).

  12. #52
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Any source on this? Shadowcraft is showing Rune of Re-Origination with Talisman of Bloodlust as as the best at BiS gear levels for Assassination. At least last time I checked, its been a bit over a day, something could have changed.
    That's because of the value SC puts on mastery. Sure, that huge spike in mastery will be nice but with the way rune works it's a detriment to overall dps missing that much crit/haste. It's been mathed out in other threads but overall the VP trinket is well above a NM Bottle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    That's because of the value SC puts on mastery. Sure, that huge spike in mastery will be nice but with the way rune works it's a detriment to overall dps missing that much crit/haste. It's been mathed out in other threads but overall the VP trinket is well above a NM Bottle.
    Shadowcraft actually recommends reforging Haste > everything when you have Rune and Talisman.

    Edit: Nevermind. Shadowcraft is now showing Bad Juju as second BiS and having all secondary stats close together for massive Rune procs. It seems the priority at that level is haste > crit> mastery (but within 3000 of whichever is the highest of haste and crit). In the profile I am using, the Rune of Re-origination proc provides a massive 35k mastery rating.

    Edit2: By the way, that proc results in you having almost 300% mastery. Pretty huge.
    Last edited by Maelstrom51; 2013-03-11 at 12:42 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Shadowcraft actually recommends reforging Haste > everything when you have Rune and Talisman.

    Edit: Nevermind. Shadowcraft is now showing Bad Juju as second BiS and having all secondary stats close together for massive Rune procs. It seems the priority at that level is haste > crit> mastery (but within 3000 of whichever is the highest of haste and crit). In the profile I am using, the Rune of Re-origination proc provides a massive 35k mastery rating.

    Edit2: By the way, that proc results in you having almost 300% mastery. Pretty huge.
    Still doesn't make Rune any good. None of those buffed poison attacks would crit, and your energy regen would be shot (meaning lots less Envenom uptime).
    With a good playstyle you might be able to make it work, but there's so much you'd have to put into gaming Rune in that situation (saved 10 CPs, 100% Envenom uptime during the Rune proc, capped energy) that it's improbable to do.

    And since you were curious, my resource was (keyword WAS) AskMrRobot, which mathed out Vicious and Bad Juju as BiS but changes itself once you plug in Rune (DPS jumps 5-10k and the second trinket changes to either Soul Charm HM or the VP trinket (for Sub).
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
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  15. #55
    Rune really isn't a very good trinket for assassination. Yes shadowcraft recommends it but shadowcraft substantially overvalues it. I explained the reason here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20462853

    I did the math on Rune here to demonstrate the weakness of the proc: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t131716-...1/#post2263230

    Additionally Rune messes with the shadowcraft gear recommendations, it will aim for rough stat parity so if you are mastery heavy it will substantially increase the ep value of haste. This is very likely an artifact of how shadowcraft handles the trinket. Rune probably brings stat values closer together but not to the extent shadowcraft shows.

    I suspect BiS trinkets for assassination will be heroic talisman and heroic bottle (2x upgraded) if nothing changes with RPPM. Heroic bad juju is roughly equivalent with a 2x upgraded heroic bottle but I'd put bottle ahead for the regularity it provides.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Still doesn't make Rune any good. None of those buffed poison attacks would crit
    Actually yes, there can be crit poison attacks during the proc. Rune puts your crit rating to 0, but not your crit chance. All the agility you get from gear, weapon enchant or trinket procs, potions... any agility... is directly converted to crit chance, even with the rune proc you will always have some crit chance. But anyway, this is just a sidenote, the trinket is bad.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    Rune really isn't a very good trinket for assassination. Yes shadowcraft recommends it but shadowcraft substantially overvalues it. I explained the reason here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20462853

    I did the math on Rune here to demonstrate the weakness of the proc: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t131716-...1/#post2263230

    Additionally Rune messes with the shadowcraft gear recommendations, it will aim for rough stat parity so if you are mastery heavy it will substantially increase the ep value of haste. This is very likely an artifact of how shadowcraft handles the trinket. Rune probably brings stat values closer together but not to the extent shadowcraft shows.

    I suspect BiS trinkets for assassination will be heroic talisman and heroic bottle (2x upgraded) if nothing changes with RPPM. Heroic bad juju is roughly equivalent with a 2x upgraded heroic bottle but I'd put bottle ahead for the regularity it provides.
    Gonna do some napkin math for using Rune with more even secondary stats at a higher item level. No idea if it will support your conclusions, or Shadowcraft's, but here goes.

    In the gearset I am using on Shadowcraft with Rune, there is 9892 Haste rating, 8112 crit rating, and 7368 (+3k from the buff) mastery rating. Using your "Typical EP" values from EJ of 1.10, 1.07 and 1.27 EP respectively, this is a total EP of 32,728 EP.

    For reference, reforging for mastery results in 12293 (+3k) mastery, 5960 haste, and 6141 crit, as well as +478 shifted into expertise, for a total of about 33,025 EP.

    Now, when Rune procs, it will reduce your haste and crit rating to zero and give you 36,008 mastery rating, for a total of 46376 mastery. Now, given your EP value of 0.88 for mastery when other stats are zero, that brings your total secondary stat EP to 41810 during the proc. With the 18.6% uptime on the proc as assumed in your EJ post, that brings the value of the proc down to 1503 EP.

    That's pretty damn terrible, especially considering you have to sacrifice a small amount of EP when without the proc, and that this analysis is biased towards Rune since the EP values used initially are based on a traditional spread of assassination stats.

    Tl;dr, I agree with you, and Rune is still terrible.

  18. #58
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    To get back on topic, yes, get the shado pan trinket. It's a decent upgrade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    None of those buffed poison attacks would crit, and your energy regen would be shot (meaning lots less Envenom uptime).
    Riiiight, becasue all your crit comes from crit rating and 10 energy per second is soooo much lower, than 11 energy per second (this excludes venomous vim procs).

    P.S. Since MoP rogue posions affected by melee (and not spell) stats, if you didn't know.

  20. #60
    I am Murloc! Ryme's Avatar
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    I've nearly finished working on some very basic spreadsheet work on trinkets, just figuring out talisman of bloodlust's placement. But beside, Shado-Pan friendly trinket in my calculations comes just slightly ahead of bottle of infinite stars heroic. Once the sheet is done, I'll post and let you clever little rogues scrutinise at your pleasure.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 10:52 AM ----------

    As a preliminary, assuming the absolute best of luck (realistic results to follow in a new thread), this is where I hold trinkets:

    Renataki's Soul Charm (H)
    Talisman of Bloodlust (H)
    Bad Juju (H)
    Renataki's Soul Charm
    Talisman of Bloodlust
    Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault
    Bad JuJu
    Bottle of Infinite Stars (H)
    Terror in the Mists (H)
    Renataki's Soul Charm (RF)
    Bottle of Infinite Stars
    Talisman of Bloodlust (RF)
    Bad Juju (RF)
    Terror in the Mists
    Relic of Xuen
    Bottle of Infinite Stars (RF)
    Terror in the Mists (RF)

    Note: This is also measured at the T15 BiS haste level.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-03-12 at 10:58 AM.
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