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  1. #161
    Thank you, i saw that post, but as it was for assassination i quickly scrolled on.
    I did use shadowcraft, but only now discover the hot-swap module, thanks for that!
    And ofcourse, thanks again for confirming my thoughts

  2. #162
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Hey guys,

    So I have a glance through the thread and have noticed some people say RoRO is good, some say otherwise. Does anyone have any numbers as evidence? The reason why I am asking is because I picked it up last night from a coin.

    My options are:

    HC Bottle 2/2
    Vicious Talisman of Shadow-Pan Assault
    Rune of Re-Origination

    My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Mutix/advanced


    Also - I noticed that people are saying ShadowC isn't going to be too useful for Rogues once multiple RPPM trinkets are being used? What about heroic ToT gear? Will that effect stat weightings too?

    One more thing, at the moment I'm reforging Mastery>Haste>Crit (capping hit/exp as prio) - with RoRo is it best to have a balance of Haste/Mastery/Crit but have Mastery very slightly higher than the other two so when RoRo procs, it procs massive mastery?

    Thanks, Mutix.

  3. #163
    Rune is a bad trinket, don't use it. Full logic is here. http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t131716-...1/#post2263230. This was before the RPPM change and proc rate buff so Rune is going to be slightly undervalued but probably not by enough to swap the values. If you have Rune you are going to want to have more balanced stats but the exact amount is up tricky and will require playing around with the back end.As

    As for the usefulness of shadowcraft, it is still accurate the problem is this tier we're starting to see ep ranks shifting within the space of feasible gear upgrades. Its always been the case that over the space of all gear sets you could make certain stats have different ep values but right now we're seeing that within very small numbers of upgrades or reforges the top ep value can change. Shadowcraft's optimization tools were never designed to handle that and can create some odd results. The model itself is still basically accurate but simply hitting auto-reforge all or optimize gems probably won't be enough to achieve perfectly optimal gear.

  4. #164
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    EJ have came up with this recently:

    Talisman of Bloodlust (Heroic Thunderforged) Unknown EP
    Rune of Re-Origination (Heroic Thunderforged) Unknown EP
    [Talisman of Bloodlust] (Heroic) 7571.3
    [Bad Juju] (Heroic Thunderforged) 7289.1
    [Talisman of Bloodlust] (Normal Thunderforged) 709937
    [Bad Juju] (Heroic) 6890.7
    [Talisman of Bloodlust] (Normal) 6716.6
    [Bad Juju] (Normal Thunderforged) 6452.7
    [Bad Juju] (Normal) 6097.6
    [Bottle of Infinite Stars] (Heroic 2/2) 5939.4
    [Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault] (Reputation) 5758.5
    [Rune of Re-Origination] (Heroic) 5721.4
    [Talisman of Bloodlust] (Raid Finder) 5594.0
    [Bottle of Infinite Stars] (Heroic 0/2) 5560.4
    [Rune of Re-Origination] (Normal Thunderforged) 5439.5
    [Terror in the Mists] (Heroic 2/2) 5419.8
    [Bottle of Infinite Stars] (Normal 2/2) 5374.0
    [Renataki's Soul Charm] (Heroic Thunderforged) 5315.5
    [Rune of Re-Origination] (Normal) 5211.3
    [Bad Juju] (Raid Finder) 5056.9
    [Renataki's Soul Charm] (Heroic) 5032.7
    [Terror in the Mists] (Heroic 0/2) 4995.0
    [Relic of Xuen] (Darkmoon 2/2) 4953.1
    [Bottle of Infinite Stars] (Normal) 4922.1
    [Renataki's Soul Charm] (Normal Thunderforged) 4722.4
    [Relic of Xuen] (Darkmoon 0/2) 4581.5
    [Rune of Re-Origination] (Raid Finder) 4542.7
    [Renataki's Soul Charm] (Normal

    Thoughts?

    Source: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130892-...ination_mists/

  5. #165
    That is a dump from the Shadowcraft backend, that is at BiS gear levels and may not correspond to gearing at other gear levels. For RPPM trinkets the value scales strongly with haste, if you only have a single RPPM trinket in general haste doesn't pass mastery so the value of the trinket is diminished by lower haste values. Bad juju normal for instance passes heroic 2x bottle at around 8-10% haste, below that point bottle is better, above bad juju. These are the kinds of questions a tool like Shadowcraft exists for, complex problems involving many variables like this are beyond what most people can feasibly calculate.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    EJ have came up with this recently:

    -list-
    While it reads "EP unknown" for Heroic Thunderforged, I'm pretty sure a less-than-8% increase to stats and proc uptime are NOT going to be worth 2000/5721.4 EP - which means that if the Heroic RoRO is under Bottle 2/2, under the VP trinket, under a normal trinket from ToT, under every other heroic agi trinket, and drops off the last boss - you'll never, ever want it.

    I do suspect something might be off with RSC there, given that Renataki's as a 541 is showing Bottle 502... but that might be a result of the gear set it's being compared to. Edit: no, the BiS list isn't expertise flooded. I'm not sure what's going on here, but with expertise instead of hit and similar agility values over a fight, H RSC and the VP trinket should be pretty darn close, which should put 541 equal or ahead of it (napkin math!) - but certainly not almost 10% behind.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-25 at 04:47 PM.

  7. #167

    Trinkets and Shadowcraft

    I'm wondering if there isn't an issue with how Shadowcraft evaluate trinkets' dps. According to EJ and the trinket thread here, Bad Juju is supposed to provide more dps than the valor trinket (assuming all hit is used ofc). Yet, Shadowcraft sorts VP trinket higher than Bad Juju.
    Considering I also have Heroic bottle (double upgrade), which site should I believe ?

    If I go for Bad Juju (and keep Heroic bottle which is the best of the three), should I start to reforge/regem my stuff towards hast rather than mastery ?

    If needed, my armory is Miskel on Khaz Modan(EU).



    PS: the whole question here is, can I trust optimization adviced by Shadowcraft.

    fixed server listing - Mugajak
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-28 at 08:27 AM.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by rahotep View Post
    I'm wondering if there isn't an issue with how Shadowcraft evaluate trinkets' dps. According to EJ and the trinket thread here, Bad Juju is supposed to provide more dps than the valor trinket (assuming all hit is used ofc).
    The posts by fierydemise above this should provide the majority answer. In short: yes. In somewhat-longer: the BiS list includes a considerable amount of haste (haven't pulled yours up yet) and should be (although EJ doesn't say if they are) be gemming/reforging partial haste, by the math shown there. It also includes ToB HTF, which adds a lot of haste itself, which directly, and significantly, increases the value of any other RPPM trinket. Since the Shado-Pan trinket is based on an ICD rather than RPPM, it doesn't follow this scaling, and is more powerful at lower haste values.

    Update: in your gear, yes, the Shado-Pan trinket IS an upgrade. It lowers your reliance on high haste (which the bottle doesn't benefit from anyway), pushes the value of mastery considerably higher, and doesn't suffer from your low-ish haste value without reforging haste.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-28 at 08:32 AM.

  9. #169
    I have a couple questions:

    1. I got Rune last night as well as a Normal Thunderforged mace (the shared boss Agi one), and was wondering whether or not I should switch Combat even though I don't have the T15 4P.

    2. What combination of these 3 is best: VP trinket, Normal Rune, and Heroic Renataki. I understand Mutix's list, but I think Rune is still being undervalued significantly because the proc doesn't get rid of your Agility-based Crit and you still have 10 energy/sec.

    3. What is the value of Heroic Renataki if you're able to utilize all of the Expertise (and honestly, nobody should have a problem with this part, I was able to stay within Hit/Exp cap when I had on VP trinket AND Heroic Renataki)?
    Carp - Illidan-US
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  10. #170
    1) My general suggestion is no, although it depends on your other gear. In general I think combat is being somewhat overvalued vs. what is realistic because of how sensitive combat is to interruptions during AR+SB. 4pc puts combat far enough ahead in theory that it will probably be ahead in practice although not by the amount shown.

    2) For assassination Renataki's and VP trinket. The analysis of rune I've linked in this thread twice now takes into account the stats that still exist at 0 rating, it is based on two runs of shadowcraft, one with a typical gear set and another with rune proc simulated and then subtracts the difference in total EP values.

    3) If you can utilize all the expertise heroic renataki's is very strong, competing with and possibly passing heroic bad juju for the 2nd best trinket available this tier. As for people have difficulty with expertise, there are a lot of items this tier with a lot of expertise on them that are still upgrades because of the raw amount of other stats, if you happened to come into this tier with a somewhat expertise heavy gear set and your upgrade path has picked up a lot of this tier's expertise pieces (for instance I'm still using heroic T14 shoulders as well as T15 chest and gloves, all with expertise) not being able to use 1657 or even 1000 expertise is not that unrealistic. In fact I would say the number of gear sets that can effectively use 1657 expertise are smaller then the number that can't, note for instance that tier chest and gloves and reforged renataki's will put you at exp cap with no other expertise gear.

  11. #171
    bad trinket design is bad that RoRO trinket sounded good but at the end is was just a big disappointment why do oyu have to sacrifice your other stats like crit which are also important for like a 40% or less mastery increase thats just stupid imo i should just increade the highest stat of all and thats it just reduce the amount that it grants and everything will be fine
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  12. #172
    (and honestly, nobody should have a problem with this part, I was able to stay within Hit/Exp cap when I had on VP trinket AND Heroic Renataki)
    Don't take your personnal case for a generality. I have way more hit than cap, and was at 13% two weeks ago, without any possibility to reduce it without losing DPS.

  13. #173

    Shado Pan Assault trinket- high risk/high reward?

    I admit that the proc on the Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault is amazing, 8,800 agility on the opening with all of your cds puts your output through the roof. The problem is that the proc is so amazing and on such a long timer that 'wasting' one or two procs in a fight turns the trinket into total garbage. Furthermore I find myself having to adjust cd management around that single trinket proc because it is so good. I'm curious of what other people think about this trinket and how it has effected their play style in ToT. Are rogues analyzing their raid dps and determining that on fights like Dark Animus, Iron Qon and Lei Shen it is not worth using the trinket because it will be on cd at bad times (or it will proc at bad times like just before or during transition).

    -I just realized there is a stickied thread on 5.2 trinkets, I can't delete the thread so if a mod could move or delete this it would be great

    Done. -Mugajak
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-31 at 04:37 AM.
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  14. #174
    I like it and I don't find myself wasting procs. I do find myself trying to game my cd's with my proc but I think that makes the trinket even more interesting. I am not switching it out on any of those fights. On DA, I will get 1 proc during the boss phase which is good enough (I'll also only get to use cd's once) so 'wasting' it on the little guys at the start doesn't really matter.

    On Qon the only time I could really see it being wasted is p2 if it goes off fight before tornadoes, but really even the rppm trinkets, while they don't have an ICD, you are only expected to get a certain amount of procs for a fight with a certain duration so wasting a proc is still wasting a proc which means your only real choice would be to go to a lower ilvl trinket with a far worse proc that has a higher uptime.

    On Lei Shen, we don't have a kill yet, but what I've noticed is that I get 2 procs before a transition and it won't clip the 2nd proc at all. There is nothing for me to hit during transition which actually makes the trinket better because both it and all my cd's will be up for when i get on the boss after the transition. If you use a rppm trinket, you could end up getting a proc wasted because he transitions during it, and the transition isn't long enough to max out your proc bonus like you have on the pull.

  15. #175
    I can't really call the trinket "high risk" since rogue DPS (as assassination, at least) isn't a rollercoaster that goes from 40-400k DPS from one part of a minute to another. It's also worth noting that any sim (ShC/SimC), unless specifically edited to do so, doesn't assume you pool resources or save CDs to line up with trinket ICDs or "expected" upcoming procs. The value is higher if you can shift (slightly) to make things line up, not lower - this is an inherent benefit of ICD trinkets that doesn't show up (normally) in modeling.

  16. #176
    So with some super random RNG i got Bad Juju and Rentakis off LFR. I just rerolled rogue (for the 2nd time this exp) so i'm wondering if i should be using either of them over 2/2 upgraded bottle hc. I assume the answer is no but i thought it better to check before i go back to raiding again for the first time since december.

    So, is LFR Bad Juju/Rentakis better than Bottle HC 2/2 Upg

  17. #177
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I'm doing some similar testing myself. I have Juju Norm, Talisman Norm, Rune Norm, Bottle HC DU.

    Personally, I think Talisman / Juju with full haste gem/chants is the most optimal. But this is all from my dummy testing which probably isn't 100% reliable. To answer your question, I'd stick with Bottle HC DU untill you get 522 RPPM's.

  18. #178
    Is it really advisable to go full haste enchanted/gemmed/reforged after acquiring double rppm trinkets? When I plugged my details into shadowcraft with the talisman and bad juju, it told me haste was a fair bit ahead of my mastery setup, but after selecting optimize gems/reforges it then put mastery quite a bit ahead on the stat weights. Seems to go back and forth between the two.

  19. #179
    The shadowcraft auto reforger does not handle gear sets where stat ranks change over the optimization space of a gear set very well. You've been able to see this for most of this expansion with crit and haste as assassination. The reforger takes a set of ep values and a gear set and reforges assuming the change in ep values will be negligible. When it isn't you will get reforges which bounce back and forth between two values. Until the reforger is changed to properly handle this case (a non-trivial challenge while being reasonably performance conscious) if you see this case auto reforge to the largest of the two sets and then individually reforge items to the higher valued stat until the stat values are equal.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by orderofmaken View Post
    Is it really advisable to go full haste enchanted/gemmed/reforged after acquiring double rppm trinkets? When I plugged my details into shadowcraft with the talisman and bad juju, it told me haste was a fair bit ahead of my mastery setup, but after selecting optimize gems/reforges it then put mastery quite a bit ahead on the stat weights. Seems to go back and forth between the two.
    It requires a balanced approach. Fierydemise's post details the optimization process that should be used in ShC.

    As you get more haste, mastery becomes better; as you get more mastery, haste becomes better. Our stats scale together. The RPPM trinkets just make haste scale well enough to overtake mastery until enough haste then makes mastery better. Aff locks have had to do this balancing act the entire expansion with haste and mastery being their best stats and scaling almost identically.

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