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  1. #1

    5.2 Trinkets Discussion

    MOD NOTE: For current trinket information, please see the last few pages of the thread. Any discussion at the beginning is highly outdated - both before changes, and before modeling of trinkets was being done accurately. The current newest results can be found HERE (this is a link).

    If your question is simply "which trinket is better for assassination" and you're not using RoRO (don't use RoRO), ask shadowcraft.

    Thanks! -Mugajak



    So, with the RPPM nerfs I was thinking about our trinket choices a bit, and I think that heroic bottle may actually be superior to the normal mode Bad Juju.

    A bit of napkin math, using 2.72 as agility EP and 1.15 as mastery EP (stat weights at t14 BiS gear):

    Bottle analysis:
    Mastery: 1218 mastery - 1400.7 EP
    Agility: 3653 agility, 45 second ICD, 20 second duration. Maths out at a maximum of 44% uptime, logs show it averaging 42.5% uptime. - 4222.9 EP

    Total: 5623.6 EP.


    Bad Juju:
    Mastery: 1467 mastery - 1687.1 EP
    Agility: 7333 agility, 20 second duration, 0.5 PPM. Averages out to be 1222.2 agility before "true haste" effects. Factoring in 15% average haste from heroism and gear, this is raised to 1405.5 agility. - 3821.6 EP

    Total: 5509.7 EP


    Obviously the voodoo gnomes add a small amount of dps and the effect of the trinket is variable on your haste. However, as it stands, Bad Juju is rather terrible for being twenty item levels higher.

    TL;DR, you'll likely be using your heroic Bottle until either heroic Bad Juju or until you have tons of haste on your gear. Hooray RPPM nerfs.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-05-22 at 06:24 AM.

  2. #2
    Tbh, it's not the first time that heroic trinkets are better than normal ones from the new tier.

    In WotLK a 10man Hm trinket was better than other normal ones from 25man (which had higher ilvl). The ilvl difference is not that big, and good designed procs will still provide a decent chunk of dps.

    This has nothing to do with the RPPM nerfs - actually it's a good thing since SnD was giving us a really huge amount of procs and our damage had to be toned down beacuse of that. I like better a direct damage buff to our abilities than an ability that grants us even more passive damage than it provides by itself.

  3. #3
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    This has nothing to do with the RPPM nerfs
    It may be your opinion that this is a good thing (and a perfectly acceptable one at that), but how can you seriously make a claim like this? The RPPM changes make us lose a third of our procs. That's huge, and would actually put the trinket where you would expect for being a twenty item level upgrade.

    Also, this did nothing to our passive damage. We lose some agility (which affects all damage) and gained a flat percentage buff to all our damage.

    Edit: Also note that the above EP values do not take into account Bad Juju clipping itself, which would lower its EP value slightly but is very hard to calculate without simming.
    Last edited by Maelstrom51; 2013-03-05 at 10:33 AM.

  5. #5
    I've made calculations for trinkets as well, however it's not as easy as stated in the first post. You need to consider that RPPM also takes into account how long ago your last proc was (which goes up to 10x original chance after 10 seconds).

    The trinkets still took a huge hit with the RPPM nerfs and my guess will be that Talisman of Bloodlust will take the #1 spot of the new trinkets now (which it didn't have before) simply because the base stat is agility there and the proc is "only haste".

    ShadowCraft should update rather soon with new trinkets so unless you want to do some more complicated math I guess you should wait until then.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    The RPPM changes make us lose a third of our procs. That's huge, and would actually put the trinket where you would expect for being a twenty item level upgrade.
    That's exactly why i agree with this nerf. Our damage was balanced taking into consideration that SnD would boost up trinkets uptime by an awful lot - so even more damage tied to an ability, SnD, which is already contibuting into a big chunk of our dps.

    Sure, it's a nerf. No one says the opposite. But i look at it and i see the same behaviour which ruled the "nerf" to BF - it's simply too much damage tied to a single ability. Basically we had a button which granted us 30% more trinket uptime with zero effort. That's why it's passive damage.

    If we want to have more "active damage", this is the kind of issue we have to deal with. I agree it's a big nerf, but that can be compensated in a lot of ways.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashvael View Post
    I've made calculations for trinkets as well, however it's not as easy as stated in the first post. You need to consider that RPPM also takes into account how long ago your last proc was (which goes up to 10x original chance after 10 seconds).
    No, you don't understand the RPPM system. Its not time since your last proc, its time since your last chance to proc. Which is every single attack.

    The number of procs you get per minute ends up averaging out to be whatever the listed RPPM chance is times your haste coefficient.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    That's exactly why i agree with this nerf. Our damage was balanced taking into consideration that SnD would boost up trinkets uptime by an awful lot - so even more damage tied to an ability, SnD, which is already contibuting into a big chunk of our dps.

    Sure, it's a nerf. No one says the opposite. But i look at it and i see the same behaviour which ruled the "nerf" to BF - it's simply too much damage tied to a single ability. Basically we had a button which granted us 30% more trinket uptime with zero effort. That's why it's passive damage.

    If we want to have more "active damage", this is the kind of issue we have to deal with. I agree it's a big nerf, but that can be compensated in a lot of ways.
    I'm just hoping it's setting the stage for the complete removal of SnD and the buffing of active damage.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Basically we had a button which granted us 30% more trinket uptime with zero effort. That's why it's passive damage.
    Well we've gone from a button that gives 40% attack speed and 40% more trinket uptime to a button that gives 40% attack speed and a flat passive 8.3% damage boost. Did this really solve anything?

    (By the way, a 35% decrease in proc chance puts the old RPPM at over 50% higher trinket and weapon enchant uptime, ignoring buff clipping, not 30% as you say).

    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    I'm just hoping it's setting the stage for the complete removal of SnD and the buffing of active damage.
    That would be nice actually.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    No, you don't understand the RPPM system. Its not time since your last proc, its time since your last chance to proc. Which is every single attack.

    The number of procs you get per minute ends up averaging out to be whatever the listed RPPM chance is times your haste coefficient.
    Indeed, my bad. I'm sorry.
    I probably misunderstood it in hopes that my following statement is wrong. It seems then that every single 522 trinket (cannot garantuee Talisman of Bloodlust since it's a little harder to calc average haste) except for the Valor Point one is worse than Heroic Bottle (510) for Assassination with 9% haste (my gear at the moment excluding bloodlust & any procs).
    Last edited by Ashvael; 2013-03-05 at 11:59 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Well we've gone from a button that gives 40% attack speed and 40% more trinket uptime to a button that gives 40% attack speed and a flat passive 8.3% damage boost. Did this really solve anything?
    (By the way, a 35% decrease in proc chance puts the old RPPM at over 50% higher trinket and weapon enchant uptime, ignoring buff clipping, not 30% as you say).
    30% was an arbitrary number, anyway you got the point. The nerf itself doesn't solve anything, it's the entire SnD mechanic which is too strong and tied to our damage - the old RPPM system only made it worse.

    I'm not against your pov, just my hope is that SnD becomes progressively less strong/mandatory. If it granted a 10% atk speed and was combat only, it would be a nice thing. Now it's "do this otherwise suck".

  12. #12
    as long its better then relic of xuen im fine with that :> because i dont have terror in the mists heroic yet :/
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    as long its better then relic of xuen im fine with that :> because i dont have terror in the mists heroic yet :/
    In that case you will likely be using the Shado-pan assault trinket. Its looking to be better than any of the normal mode ToT trinkets at the moment.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    In that case you will likely be using the Shado-pan assault trinket. Its looking to be better than any of the normal mode ToT trinkets at the moment.
    I wish I could swap out that easily for it, but I'm already overloaded with hit so I have to replace gear first.

    It sucks quite a bit.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    I wish I could swap out that easily for it, but I'm already overloaded with hit so I have to replace gear first.

    It sucks quite a bit.
    At 15% average "true haste" you actually don't have to make use of any of the hit rating to make it as good as Bad Juju.

  16. #16
    How good is Heroic upgraded 517 terror in the mists in comparison to the normal mode trinkets from 5.2 with the changes to proc system for assassination? Since it has a lot of baseline agility.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by orderofmaken View Post
    How good is Heroic upgraded 517 terror in the mists in comparison to the normal mode trinkets from 5.2 with the changes to proc system for assassination? Since it has a lot of baseline agility.
    Slightly worse than Bad Juju. You will likely be replacing it as soon as you hit friendly rep with the Shado Pan assault.

    I don't feel like showing the math, but I have 5365 EP for 2/2 upgraded heroic Terror using the same EP values.

    For reference, the Shado Pan trinket is worth 5500 EP assuming the hit only goes towards white hit, at a value of .64 EP per point.
    Last edited by Maelstrom51; 2013-03-05 at 12:49 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    At 15% average "true haste" you actually don't have to make use of any of the hit rating to make it as good as Bad Juju.
    That is quite intense. I suppose that makes it better than Xuen right out, then.

  19. #19
    The problem is not the 522 trinkets beeing underpowered, its Bottle beeing retardedly overpowered. When I upgraded for normal Terror to heroic bottle with 2 valor upgrades I gained more DPS tham when I got my heroic dagger from Stone guards... thats way too freaking much for a trinket.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    In that case you will likely be using the Shado-pan assault trinket. Its looking to be better than any of the normal mode ToT trinkets at the moment.
    well im not sure if i need another 1,4k hit since im capped already on both exp and hit and still have 75% mastery
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

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