Page 7 of 22 FirstFirst ...
5
6
7
8
9
17
... LastLast
  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    It really will depend on your haste, I have normal juju overtaking double upgraded bottle at around 10-11% haste.
    Okay, so haste is the crucial aspect here. *nods*
    I'm always balancing my haste and crit values (both around 3700) atm with ilevel of 510. So probably will take 5-10 more itemlevels to switch out the bottle for Bad Juju then, thanks.

  2. #122
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    In a field, somewhere
    Posts
    6,813
    Oh, and yeah, RSC is being extremely undervalued on that list - Just working out it's uptime again (ICD causes lots of issues) - also, rep trinket is being overvalued quite significantly.

    Updated list follows...

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 02:11 PM ----------

    Assassination Trinket List
    Generated using the following stat-dps values:
    Agility: 6.91
    Mastery: 3.53
    Crit: 2.97
    Haste : 3.11

    Haste: 25%

    Mathematics/logic: http://plg.uwaterloo.ca/~rwking/Anal...0Mechanics.pdf - All credit to Conjor


    Trinket Name Average DPS
    Bad Juju (H) 20690.40
    Talisman of Bloodlust (H) 18859.94
    Bad Juju (N) 18323.87
    Renataki's Soul Charm (H) 17974.80
    Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault 17233.79
    Bottle of Infinite Stars (H DU) 16729.30
    Talisman of Bloodlust 16701.88
    Bottle of Infinite Stars (H SU) 16117.14
    Renataki's Soul Charm 15918.65
    Bottle of Infinite Stars (H) 15530.49
    Bad Juju (RF) 15213.07
    Bottle of Infinite Stars (DU) 14819.37
    Terror in the Mists (H DU) 14425.43
    Bottle of Infinite Stars 13757.78
    Talisman of Bloodlust (RF) 13867.22
    Terror in the Mists (H) 13393.31
    Renataki's Soul Charm (RF) 13218.92
    Relic of Xuen 12310.48
    Bottle of Infinite Stars (RF) 12186.04
    Terror in the Mists 11868.27
    Terror in the Mists (RF) 10517.85

    RSC and VTotSA values assume all expertise/hit used effectively.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-04-17 at 02:39 PM. Reason: Updated to 25% haste
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  3. #123
    At the risk of being reprimanded for talking about epic metagems on a trinket thread... A repost of something I just posted to EJ, as it also uses the RPPM mechanic we've been discussing.

    Sharing this as Shadowcraft's calculations for the legendary meta gem are way off atm (due to be fixed next time it's patched)- it's showing the legendary would give me 21k dps.

    As far as I understand it, we get 324 crit, and 'some dps'.

    The damage part of 'some dps' is d = 280 + 0.75*AP

    The 'per second' part of 'some dps' comes from the RPPM mechanic. With a RPPM of 23 (that's 21 * 1.535 multiplier for assassination) and at 23% haste, the average time to proc is 1.5 seconds. You get the damage when you get 5 procs, so on average every 7.5 seconds.

    so, 'some dps' = [280 + 0.75*AP]/7.5.

    Say you have around 50k AP, the value of the gem comes to 324 crit + 5014dps.

    Alas, as the hits from the gem can crit too, assuming 20% crit chance, that nets us about 1k more dps, so with all these assumptions, the napkin math here gives us a value for the gem of 324 crit + 6018dps.

    * Other effects might increase the value further, e.g. bandit's guile.
    _
    Edit: better numbers
    Last edited by wimp; 2013-03-18 at 09:22 PM.

  4. #124
    Im wondering if i should get more haste and reforge mastery out - this is my armory http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Nerya/advanced
    and here is the log from yesterday from Twins http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10631&e=11204 with bad juju (N) 25% uptime
    The log is without reforge to haste

    With both my trinkets reforge to haste i have 5079 haste
    Last edited by Nerya; 2013-03-18 at 06:04 PM.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Assassination Trinket List
    Is it safe to assume this trinket list is about the same for combat, except with RPPM trinkets valued higher because of more haste?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 11:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerya View Post
    Im wondering if i should get more haste and reforge mastery out - this is my armory http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Nerya/advanced
    and here is the log from yesterday from Twins http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=10631&e=11204 with bad juju (N) 25% uptime
    The log is without reforge to haste

    With both my trinkets reforge to haste i have 5079 haste
    I'd say reforge one trinket to haste. Shadowcraft puts haste and mastery at about equal for you, with haste slightly ahead. Mastery overtakes haste again once you reforge one trinket (bottle is probably best to reforge).


    Seeing that is a bit weird for me though. Is there actually a mastery cap for assassination, or are RPPM trinkets just that good now?

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    Seeing that is a bit weird for me though. Is there actually a mastery cap for assassination, or are RPPM trinkets just that good now?
    Mastery while assassination's best stat isn't really that much stronger, 1.24 EP vs. 1.1 EP. Clearly the typical recommendation of mastery>haste=crit was basically correct but the difference between mastery and the other stats wasn't that great.

    What you are seeing is basically synergy between secondary stats, mastery makes haste better and vice versa. Haste does pass the value of mastery when you have multiple RPPM trinkets however you will actually lose dps if you drop a lot of mastery (fully regem or reforge) because that loss of mastery makes haste weaker. With two RPPM trinkets it is probably optimal to continue to stack mastery however you should make an effort to gear such that haste and mastery are basically equal in value. This will probably be between haste at 50-75% of mastery. This is going to play havoc with shadowcraft's recommendations because the reforger isn't really designed to handle stat balancing, to do things correctly is going to require a degree of hand tuning shadowcraft reforges.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    ~~~
    Haste: 17.5%
    ~~~


    Thanks again, and much appreciated!

    Just a quick question here: Do the 17,5 % haste invovle our passive 10 % from Swiftblade's Cunning or just from items?

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Thanks again, and much appreciated!

    Just a quick question here: Do the 17,5 % haste invovle our passive 10 % from Swiftblade's Cunning or just from items?
    Just from items. Swiftblade's cunning doesn't affect RPPM abilities.

    Signature by Geekissexy Check out her Deviantart

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Thanks again, and much appreciated!

    Just a quick question here: Do the 17,5 % haste invovle our passive 10 % from Swiftblade's Cunning or just from items?
    No, RPPM uses only "true haste", as a general rule anything that increases energy regen is true haste so RPPM scales with gear haste, BL, troll racial and maybe a few other sources. It does not scale with the haste buff, SnD, etc.

  10. #130
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    In a field, somewhere
    Posts
    6,813
    Quote Originally Posted by whathump View Post
    Is it safe to assume this trinket list is about the same for combat, except with RPPM trinkets valued higher because of more haste?
    Probably safe yes due to the nature of having that much extra haste. I'm not in a great position to estimate combat trinkets though, having never been able to play the spec properly (never ever seen a slow main hand weapon beyond heroics... go figure).
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  11. #131
    And thanks again. Btw, is the Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault also RPPM, so that Bad Juju now is always better?

  12. #132
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    In a field, somewhere
    Posts
    6,813
    Nope, Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault used the old ICD system (105 second ICD, 15% chance to proc on landing harmful abilities and spells, and melee/ranged abilities and swings.

    Source: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6?page=79#1561
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  13. #133
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    250
    Have I missed something Obvious Ryme or is there no Rune (heroic or otherwise) in your list ?

  14. #134
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    In a field, somewhere
    Posts
    6,813
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    Have I missed something Obvious Ryme or is there no Rune (heroic or otherwise) in your list ?
    It is omitted, for a couple reasons:

    - Modelling it as above is irritating since it sends EP values all over the place
    - Modelling it in a vacuum state makes very little sense due to it's interaction with other trinkets/procs
    - I hate it
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  15. #135
    Looking at the BIS list for assassination rogues, there doesn't look to be modeling for rune or re-origination. I think we need to start modelling that

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    It is omitted, for a couple reasons:

    - I hate it
    I choked on my coffee while laughing. Thank you, so much. With the exception of tracking it in conjunction with ToBloodlust, wouldn't vaccuum testing be close to reality? The only issue I see is missing crit and haste at the opening of the fight because of the "bad luck prevention" increase to proc chance, but that would actually show up in vaccuum testing because it would assume no crit and no haste at the opening of the fight anyway. Not sure how you'd want to model ToB and RorO.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 03:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheelchair View Post
    Looking at the BIS list for assassination rogues, there doesn't look to be modeling for rune or re-origination. I think we need to start modelling that
    As Ryme posted a couple of minutes before you, RorO (or RoRo or RoO, or RoRO, whatever acronym you use, in varying degrees of accuracy) is a real PITA to try to model. I'm not sure if SimC has made an update allowing procs to apply negative bonuses (-crit, -haste) or variable bonuses (+2x(crit+haste)), but I really doubt it - which leaves us to do napkin math and "approximations" to try to value the trinket.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-19 at 09:05 PM.

  17. #137
    I attempted to do an analysis of Rune here http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t131716-...1/#post2263230. It isn't perfect but I think its in the right ballpark. Short version, for assassination it isn't very good.

    EDIT: This is before some the RPPM changes so the proc rate is slightly higher then I have computed there but the net result is the same. I doubt heroic run beats a double upgraded heroic bottle.
    Last edited by fierydemise; 2013-03-19 at 08:31 PM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    I attempted to do an analysis of Rune here http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t131716-...1/#post2263230. It isn't perfect but I think its in the right ballpark. Short version, for assassination it isn't very good.

    EDIT: This is before some the RPPM changes so the proc rate is slightly higher then I have computed there but the net result is the same. I doubt heroic run beats a double upgraded heroic bottle.
    If everything else about your math holds, the proc rate would need to increase almost 200% to catch heroic bottle, and I just don't see that happening (10% increase + <=10s/fight duration, as a result of the ICD). Pushing from ~18% to ~22-23% is not a 200% relative increase; Rune should stay firmly under upgraded T14H trinkets (H to H, and N to N). If anything is wrong with stat weights or your stats are wildly different, you can run yourself with "hackneyed" stats (drop haste/crit to 0, increase mastery to old mastery +2x(crit+haste)) and see what you get, divided by the uptime + the value of the agility, like the original findings. For anyone really interested this is vital, since the trinket's value varies with your current secondary stats.

  19. #139
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Bedford, England
    Posts
    250
    Does this confirm those trinkets were an awful design from Blizzard! I just want to know what boss to use my coins on!!!!

  20. #140
    Great work fierydemise, did you happen to calculate it for combat? considering its a smaller adrenaline rush

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •