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  1. #181
    As far as RSC is concerned, I don't see many of us Assas Gnomes using it as we have an extra 340 exp rating kicking around. Even in my low level gear there is no amount of reforging that would make use of enough expertise (even after reforging) to make the static stats of this trinket worthwhile. Makes me a sad lil' gnome

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    It requires a balanced approach. Fierydemise's post details the optimization process that should be used in ShC.

    As you get more haste, mastery becomes better; as you get more mastery, haste becomes better. Our stats scale together. The RPPM trinkets just make haste scale well enough to overtake mastery until enough haste then makes mastery better. Aff locks have had to do this balancing act the entire expansion with haste and mastery being their best stats and scaling almost identically.
    i tried around a bit with better gear, and it seems mastery is always "better", but not by much. So even with heroic/thunderforged rppm trinkets you should focus on mastery first, like 60 % and 40 % into haste. In BiS gear something like 10k mastery 8k haste and 2k crit while exp/hit capped are okay.

  3. #183
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    i tried around a bit with better gear, and it seems mastery is always "better", but not by much. So even with heroic/thunderforged rppm trinkets you should focus on mastery first, like 60 % and 40 % into haste. In BiS gear something like 10k mastery 8k haste and 2k crit while exp/hit capped are okay.
    Any numbers / logs to back this up?

  4. #184
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    As always, simple priority orders like mastery > haste > crit are not optimal - You want to be maintaining a ratio rather than an order.

    Still simming out pretty graphs for this, they take quite some time to complete - but basic testing suggests to me a 10:8 of mastery to haste/crit should yield the best results, crit should outweigh haste (marginally with rppm trinkets) until around 522 item level.

    This is done with the assumption that you're going to be moving around a lot and not just whack a boss, whack a boss results just push haste up and out the reaches of crit.

    Graphs to come later tonight.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-04-03 at 10:24 AM.
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  5. #185

  6. #186
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    I didn't totally forget about this, nooo, I'm just testing your patience!

    EDIT: After an hour and a half of simulation, simulationcraft broke - Bear with me!

    EDIT 2: I have the data, looking for a nice way to plot the surface.

    EDIT 3: I have no software that can generate compelling 3d surface plots based on set data -_- I did not think this through, not giving up, just a set back.
    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-04-03 at 11:22 PM.
    I am the lucid dream
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  7. #187
    What data do you have available?

  8. #188
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    A very lovely csv file showing the dps changes based on shifting values in crit, haste and mastery - the final conclusion is not surprising but since I've got all the data, it would be nice to find a way to put it into a useful graph.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    A very lovely csv file showing the dps changes based on shifting values in crit, haste and mastery - the final conclusion is not surprising but since I've got all the data, it would be nice to find a way to put it into a useful graph.
    While it may be difficult to model as a 3D graph, have you considered posting a spreadsheet with alter-able variables showing the relative change in stats as one becomes higher or lower?

  10. #190
    Is it structured something along the lines of:
    f(stat a, stat b, stat c, ...) = (a value, b value, c value, etc)

    into:
    stat input a, input b, ... stat weight a, b, ...
    a, b, c, ... a, b, c, ...
    Last edited by Pathal; 2013-04-04 at 09:12 AM.

  11. #191
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    It's a large file, with over 10,000 data entries - it's possible to do it that way, but finding the useful data would be costly on your time

    Quote Originally Posted by Pathal View Post
    Is it structured something along the lines of:
    f(stat a, stat b, stat c, ...) = (a value, b value, c value, etc)?
    It's in the form:

    (Starting value - delta) stat a, delta stat b, stat c = dps

    For example, when it measures the change in dps when reforging haste into mastery starting at 1500 haste:

    1500 0 x DPS
    1450 50 x DPS
    1400 100 x DPS

    where x is a fixed value on the third stat.

    This can be plotted nicely, and has been done before like the following:

    Last edited by Ryme; 2013-04-04 at 09:18 AM.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  12. #192
    I see what you plotted then.

    If you're still struggling to render it somewhere, upload it to some site (maybe mega, preferably somewhere that doesn't require an account) and I'll try and get it done this afternoon when I get back if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

  13. #193
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    I believe I've found a way to get it done, I should be able to get it rendered tonight (around 10pm gmt) if no one else does before then.
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  14. #194
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    Well?! I want to know what to equip:'(

  15. #195
    i dont know why i would reforge and regemm into mastery while i was checking shadowcraft and simcraft with trinkets rschtf talisman rep trinket and botle while i was reforge into mastery and regem into mastery it was increasing my dps arount 1275,9 lol mrgins of mistake - proc from trinkets. so i just pulled all into haste and had hope to get more % from tinkets

    funy things is renetaki buffing back to back 4 times depensd how lucky im, on whole fight is like 7 times when he proc . and when i pulled all into haste talisman stacking more often to 4-5.

    the insternal cd on renataki is 74,5 sec with haste i have 65 sec, with talisman on the cd is lowered for another 10 sec , to 55 sec. some raid buff and other sutff, pretty decent, the burst dmg on pull is pretty close to same if not better with haste while rsc will pop up with BL, 2x dancing steels, potion. 40k+ agility on pull. if you have lucky and have back to back renataki like 3-4 times with stacked talisman is just fun. and more energy regen.

    math sux and numbers not always showing you the right thing. i think from haste i have more benefits that from mastery like energy regen internal cd from trinkets

    this how it works for me my gear is not the best like you see, but it works fine with haste
    sory for english

    i cant get you link im posting almost nothing

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rouge/advanced Link fixed - Mugajak
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-04-07 at 07:29 AM.

  16. #196
    For the purpose of clarification - the new trinkets have no ICD, but haste DOES lower the average time between procs, before anyone gets hung up on that.

    The thing about sims is that (the good ones) DO model haste's secondary effects - energy regen, energy regen from secondary effects, increased proc rate for RPPM trinkets, etc. and give you numbers which reflect that. Does that make the modeling perfect? Not quite, but it's pretty damn good (for rogues) since we're pretty easy to model. The action list isn't perfect I'm sure, but it is "good enough" that you can assume it's in line.

    The problem with anecdotal evidence (what you see in raid) is that a full haste and a full mastery build are not THAT far apart, but you'll notice bigger differences than exist. In Shadowcraft for your character, for example, swapping from "full haste" to a default nets you a little over 1500 DPS, but the variance you'd see in your damage from perfect play is MUCH larger than that difference. As a result, if you see an especially lucky set of procs (over expectations), you might conclude that haste is incredible and gem/reforge exclusively for haste, but if you were simply unlucky, you might conclude haste is awful and get rid of all of it. Neither conclusion is accurate, and simulations, by their nature, help us determine which is really ahead when things are close enough you can't say "WOW, THAT'S SO RIDICULOUSLY MUCH BETTER" the way you would if you switched from, say, shuriken toss/rupture spam combat to a real rotation. By running 1,000 or 10,000+ iterations of combat, we can determine much more accurately which one is, on average, ahead.

    I could easily conclude for my Warlock that the Unerring Vision of Lei Shen is worthless because it only procced three times on heroic Jin'rokh this week (the first over a minute into the fight - after bloodlust was over, and the last <2 seconds before he died) and my DPS suffered for it, but it boosted my damage a solid 30-40k on other fights that same night. Ironically, for those trinkets, the greatest possible outlier for DPS is for a mastery build to have both trinket proc all the time (Renataki's on its 22 second ICD, and ToB always at 5 stacks). The optimal reforging (so far discovered) for assassination suggests that neither mastery nor haste are "trump" stats anymore, and a balance between the two (since haste benefits trinkets so much, and mastery is so naturally powerful, and each stat empowers the other) is ideal for this tier.

  17. #197
    The Patient Mutix's Avatar
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    @Mugajak

    Any 'rough' figures of Haste / Mastery with/without double RPPM trinkets?

    I'm currently running 2 RPPM trinkets (Talisman / Juju, both normal) and have 7450 (29.28%) Haste and 6640 (66.73%) Mastery (unbuffed) whilst being Haste reforged and enchanted. Also using Agi Haste gems instead of Agi Mastery.

    On the other hand, I could flip out JuJu for Bottle HC or valor trinket If I decided I didn't like the RNG of JuJu, in that case would Mastery's weighting with regards to the nice 'balance' increase?
    Last edited by Mutix; 2013-04-07 at 08:24 PM.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutix View Post
    1) Any 'rough' figures of Haste / Mastery with/without double RPPM trinkets?

    2) On the other hand, I could flip out JuJu for Bottle HC or valor trinket If I decided I didn't like the RNG of JuJu, in that case would Mastery's weighting with regards to the nice 'balance' increase?
    1) NOPE! I'm not a math/simulation wizard. Could try Ryme if he's feeling ambitious after that 3D graph renders. Maybe ask me again in 3 months or so when I've bought a new computer and I'm not asking other people to run sims for me? :P
    2) Yep; RPPM trinkets do increase the value of haste by their nature, and having 1 non-RPPM trinket will lower the value of haste, making the mastery vs. haste scale favor mastery longer than it would with 2 RPPM trinkets. What those values aaare I can't really tell you. I'd play around with SimC at different haste/mastery reforges to see where you find the values for haste and mastery to pull even.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-04-07 at 08:40 PM.

  19. #199
    Immortal Ryme's Avatar
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    3D Graph renders will have to be done when I'm at work since the main data is on my work computer (freaking super computer can run reforge plots quite quickly 25k iterations) but I've reran it at 1k iteration which is enough to give a general idea (the error is about 440 dps). So if someone wants, they can have a stab at this data

    http://pastebin.com/xAh9cMvc
    I am the lucid dream
    Uulwi ifis halahs gag erh'ongg w'ssh


  20. #200
    https://twitter.com/holinka/status/321755134541570048

    Vicious Talisman of the Shado-Pan Assault getting nerf by 1.9k agility less

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