5.2 Trinkets Discussion

[Coldkil]

How can a spec be screwed by utterly complicated modeling? How exactly does the difficulty to model very precise and barely useful things affect its current ingame condition?

This is actually a very good patch for rogues, and good here applies for many meanings.

Ok, bad wording Our shape is good, but i don't remeber a time in which modeling what to do has been this complicated. Going to edit the post to avoid further incomprehension.

EDIT: @draigars you play in apex? Rofl i never noticed there are so many high ranked posters in these forums :P usually i never care about progression, but a discussion feels really good if done with over-the-median players.

[fierydemise]

So basically the only spec that has a clear stat prio (combat = haste) is screwed by mechanics, and assa has an utterly complicated modeling.

Fun patch for rogues huh?

Thing is the 4pc would probably be a mess for combat even if combat didn't stack haste. The real problem, as shadowboy is fond of saying is AR doesn't really make sense in a world of scaling energy regen. Even if combat had a stat priority like assassination without RPPM trinkets (mastery>haste>crit) you would still be able to saturate the .5 second GCD so you'd suffer in the same way.

I also don't think its accurate to say that assassination has complicated modeling, assassination is probably the easiest of the three specs to model with a reasonable degree of accuracy. Combat and sub rely more on careful ability timings which makes them much harder to handle with time averages. Assassination stats did get somewhat more complicated this tier but I think a large part of that is that reforging with stat balances is more complex then reforging without rather then any inherent complexity of assassination.

[Joenips]

OK so I know this has been posted many times but I really dont know what trinkets I should be using. I have to chose between the Shadow-Pan Trinket, Renataki's Soul Charm and Bad Juju all trinkets are ilvl 522.

My Armory

[Sesshou]

Why exactly don't you know? Pretty sure every time some one asks any gearing question, some one links shadowcraft. Use simcraft if you want instead or in addition to shadowcraft. SC says you are using the right two currently. No one here is going to be able to give you a different answer than what those give you unless they are just winging it or something.

[Ryme]

Since the shao-pan trinket gives a lot of hit and Renataki gives a lot of expertise it's going to come down to how much value you place on those stats and how easily you can reach your caps with or without them.

[theherecy]

Since the shao-pan trinket gives a lot of hit and Renataki gives a lot of expertise it's going to come down to how much value you place on those stats and how easily you can reach your caps with or without them.

This. Having one is perfectly fine, but why would you choose both the VP trinket and RSC, you will *never* lose enough hit and expertise to make them valuable enough.

[Joenips]

Ok maybe I should have included this on my first post:

If I go with Bad Juju and Soul Charm should I go with a more haste heavy build? If so what % should I be aiming to hit.

[theherecy]

Ok maybe I should have included this on my first post:

If I go with Bad Juju and Soul Charm should I go with a more haste heavy build? If so what % should I be aiming to hit.

Please please please re-read everything in this thread, It answers every question you have. /rage

To answer it anyway, it's probably more likely that haste will help you out, but no one has the time to go through by hand and work out your potential gains. This is what simulationcraft and shadowcraft do just fine. If you need any he;p feel free to pm me.

[Badjoe242]

Are people still going mastery build as assassination? Or are people going this new "haste build" to counter the trinket system?

[Deleted]

Are people still going mastery build as assassination? Or are people going this new "haste build" to counter the trinket system?

This thread has your answer. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...y-gritty/page9

[Badjoe242]

This thread has your answer. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...y-gritty/page9

Unless my eyes just can't see it after passing over the pages couple times. I don't see a post about choosing haste over mastery. Most of the talk is rotation and rune of O trinket.

[Deleted]

Unless my eyes just can't see it after passing over the pages couple times. I don't see a post about choosing haste over mastery. Most of the talk is rotation and rune of O trinket.

There's lots towards the end. I.e:

On mastery and haste: mastery has historically been ahead, but mastery increases the value of haste and crit, but does not increase the value of mastery. It would eventually be the case that haste and crit would both catch mastery if you gained enough mastery without gaining other stats. This effect has been pushed forward to the current point in time because of RPPM procs (trinket, meta). This doesn't mean haste > mastery, but that there is a "sweet spot" where reforging haste into mastery OR mastery into haste would be a DPS loss. Crit is distinctly behind at this point in time. I haven't yet seen a rogue profile where haste was over mastery when the stat values of both were equal, so you will most likely see mastery = haste (for adding more) when mastery is higher than haste.

[fallschick]

With 2 rppm and legendary meta makes haste better than mastery.

[Coldkil]

With 2 rppm and legendary meta makes haste better than mastery.

That's exactly the wrong point.

There's no "haste > mastery" or "mastery > haste". It's all depending on your gear and on the amount of both the stats. The more you stack of one, the worse it becomes and the better becomes the other one.

[wimp]

So, Shadowcraft tells us the talisman of bloodlust is king among trinkets, which makes sense. However, I'm not able to follow the SC code, and I tend to like maths I can put on a spreadsheet... Also like to double check SC's resuls. So with that caveat out of the way...

Does anyone have modelling for the talisman of bloodlust stacking? I'm after a mathematical model for stacking (as opposed to a simulation) - something I can fit onto a spreadsheet.

To recap: we have good maths for in a vacuum behaviour for all the trinkets, except for RoRo (due to the variation of EP weights when stats change as drastically) and Talisman of Bloodlust (due to the stacking behaviour). The difficulties with RoRo's modelling are class and even character-based (so no general model in a vacuum possible here), whereas Talisman of Bloodlust should be possible to model.

Bloodlust has no ICD, but can stack (up to 5). So new procs during an existing proc aren't wasted (as for other trinkets without ICD), but add one proc stack.

My questions are:

1) When you are on 5 stacks, can the 5th stack be refreshed by another proc, or will the 5th stack always drop off after 10 seconds?

2) Has anyone done the modelling/got maths for the stacking case?

(also posted on the hunter trinket thread)

[Coldkil]

1) I'm assuming it works like the strength one, so a proc at 5 stacks will refresh the duration.

2) Not into modeling unfortunately.

[theherecy]

I can confirm it does refresh at 5 stacks, though don't treat this trinket as a static 8k haste; it usually sticks around 2 stacks. With that said, during bloodlust this trinket seems to proc more (not sure why as it shouldn't be affected by additional haste) and the dps explodes.

It's a very good trinket all round though; alleviates complexities of gameplay whilst providing good burst occasionally.

[Ryme]

To go somewhat off topic, if I may, nothing beats Bad Juju refreshing itself several times so that you end up with an army of gnomes

[wimp]

An army of gnomes certainly beats mathematical modelling...

[Ryme]

An army of gnomes certainly beats mathematical modelling...

Sorry wimp, I'm a bit pressed at work at the moment, but I can certainly try to look into your issue. I might have something to offer tomorrow, though I'd wager someone like Conjor would be your best bet, his mathematical understanding on RPPM trinkets is quite exceptional.