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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueobelisk View Post
    I'm sorry you said you were a "top tier" raider? What exactly does that mean? World firsts? Server firsts?

    Your guide is very...general. I was expecting a guide to becoming one of the best raiders in the world for some reason lol.
    It's a relative term... I'll assume you aren't being a sarcastic prick, and you actually want to know my background. I have raided in guilds ranked top on server, and I've raided heroic progression going on three expansions now. I've always played at a level I know to be exceptional, and I typically outperform players that outgear me. Not making claims to be Jesus, but I think I have a good grasp on the game, and just wanted to pass some knowledge on.

    I'm sorry if the guide seems too "general" for you, but the fact is there isn't a whole lot more to being an exceptional player. Excluding class-specific topics (to which there are endless rabbit-holes to climb down), being great just means executing flawlessly and fully implementing all those good-kid strategies you know you should be doing. There is no secret to being exceptional; every player starts at their own given skillpoint, and he/she can only get better through practice and proactive learning of their class and raiding in general.

  2. #22
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shootz View Post
    I don't have any stats to back it up but I wouldn't be surprised if the number one guild killer was people just being downright awful to each other and all the problems that creates by killing morale, killing motivation, obliterating any semblance of fun in what is meant to be an enjoyable hobby.
    I suspect you’re probably right; then again, it’s not hard to figure out why it happens when many top guilds get together for purple pixels rather spending time having fun with each other. This is a generalisation, and I don’t need told that it’s not the case everywhere, but the ego management involved in some WoW guilds makes me cry.

    Also, to the OP:

    Very nice work. A lot of effort went in here, and the clean-up of the language was worth it. Thanks for posting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  3. #23
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    I think it's important to note something said in this guide which often goes overlooked: there needs to be a balance between mutual respect/tolerance (kindness maybe, huh?) and putting up with underperforming. Often I find I'm too nice a guy and carry weight which, while not exactly dead, is someone you don't want to be on the same platform with on p1 H-Sha because they get hit far too much by spray. Luckily, there's other people in our guild who can be not nice to balance me out, but if you're a serious minded guild, who doesn't have the World First-esque days to throw at a boss, tolerance of underperformance will fracture your raid group.

    Remember that being a team also includes respecting your teammates' time by being prepared, knowing your role for a particular fight (beyond the generalities of healer/dps/tank), and being able to acknowledge, absorb, and apply lessons from your mistakes (triple A system, baby, I think I just made that up). Mistakes once or twice are fine, maybe even a couple hours of mistakes on a particularly hard progression boss. Weeks of heroic Ambershaper because you somehow can't handle 3 buttons as a construct despite having a dozen in your main class = not fine. Not that I'm speaking anecdotally or anything.

  4. #24
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    Razecog approves of this.
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  5. #25
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    I'll be the unhappy dick in the corner:

    This guide isn't too useful for anything. It's too basic, has no depth and it's target audience doesn't exist: If you want to be a serious raider, enough that you could actually achieve it, nothing in this guide is news to you.

    What you could improve is perhaps explain the nuances to being a serious raider; how to analyse WoL, the expression editor for one thing is something that has woeful documentation;

    Explain how to be use sites like Elitist jerks or tools like simulationcraft effectively, what's more and what has almost no documentation what-so-ever is how to analyse the statistical inferences of simcraft which are hugely important;

    Perhaps give some basic overview on theory crafting, for example, it's quite alarming how few raiders know how to calculate the statistical worth of trinkets - gear is easy, trinkets seem to cause a lot of headaches for a lot of people - I'd recommend the thread over in the paladin forums, if it still exists, there's some absolutely fantastic maths being done over there concerning trinkets.
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  6. #26
    I thought this was superb. Thanks, this succinctly covers a lot of stuff that I'm not sure everyone in my team knows.

  7. #27
    Good guide, covers some important aspects of serious raiding that are often over looked in other guides, without being encounter specific or class specific.

    I'll say that there are other aspects that could be added, but this is a good guide to stepping up from casual raiding up to something more serious. Once you have a footing at the serious level then you might want more detail.

  8. #28
    The Patient
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    Foundation is everything. Good guide, thanks for the effort

  9. #29
    Its not a guide to "serious raiding". Its a guide to non-retarded raiding.
    Seriously, you would be kicked out of a pug raid group if you don't know the tactics and don't know how to use your dps/raidsaving cooldowns.

    The real guide to serious raiding should be focused on "how to keep your guild from falling apart on 8-hours/day 7 days/week progression raids", "how to do a guild climbing without being hated by everyone", "how to stay sane and not to lose your job during progression weeks".

  10. #30
    Simple. Sweet. Good job. Must read for new and seasoned raiders. Unnecassary profanity? never heard of that. lol Thanks for taking the time.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    I'll be the unhappy dick in the corner:

    This guide isn't too useful for anything. It's too basic, has no depth and it's target audience doesn't exist: If you want to be a serious raider, enough that you could actually achieve it, nothing in this guide is news to you.

    What you could improve is perhaps explain the nuances to being a serious raider; how to analyse WoL, the expression editor for one thing is something that has woeful documentation;

    Explain how to be use sites like Elitist jerks or tools like simulationcraft effectively, what's more and what has almost no documentation what-so-ever is how to analyse the statistical inferences of simcraft which are hugely important;

    Perhaps give some basic overview on theory crafting, for example, it's quite alarming how few raiders know how to calculate the statistical worth of trinkets - gear is easy, trinkets seem to cause a lot of headaches for a lot of people - I'd recommend the thread over in the paladin forums, if it still exists, there's some absolutely fantastic maths being done over there concerning trinkets.
    You're telling him to include things that are, on their own, separate subjects all together worthy of their own thread/discussion. You also tell him to go into statistical number crunching for trinkets (or gear in general)...why? In the same paragraph you even says it's done elsewhere. If someone else has put the work in then you acknowledge it's now a source for it...why does he have to go into it?? He is merely putting into a clear and precise format what most people "assume" and for that alone it's worth a read. This "guide" accomplishes its goal and the potential target audience is huge.
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  12. #32
    The Patient
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    This guide actually applies to the game of LIFE

    be nice, be prepared, respect other "players", be vocal, dont dramatize
    It is just a game

  13. #33
    The only question I have from the guide...

    What kind of raider smokes weed during progression? I know plenty who drink during farming and such, but does that really happen?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuadu View Post
    You're telling him to include things that are, on their own, separate subjects all together worthy of their own thread/discussion. You also tell him to go into statistical number crunching for trinkets (or gear in general)...why? In the same paragraph you even says it's done elsewhere. If someone else has put the work in then you acknowledge it's now a source for it...why does he have to go into it?? He is merely putting into a clear and precise format what most people "assume" and for that alone it's worth a read. This "guide" accomplishes its goal and the potential target audience is huge.
    The issue isn't that the guide doesn't accomplish it's goals. It's that it's not really a guide to "serious" raiding. It's more of a guide to just being a semi-decent player.

    Considering that one of the suggestions was to "watch encounter videos", it's safe to assume the guide isn't aimed toward anyone wanting to get into a world first, region first, or even realm first guild. If you're wanting to preform at a world class level, you need to possess/build the skills to analyze logs, use simcraft and build your own ideas of what you need to be doing during new encounters; not mimic other people's ideas.

  15. #35
    Keep your camera zoomed out to the maximum (without slipping behind textures into ceilings/walls) distance, and rotate it with your mouse occasionally, taking mental note of the raid’s overall position, visualizing where the raid will need to move/shift to over the next minute or so.
    As a melee, I disagree with this bit. If you play as a speck, you can't see yourself in the midst of everyone else + pets + adds + spell effects, and it also screws up positioning for boss cleaves, aoe etc. as well as moving to targets. (as a healer yes it would work for being zoomed right out and to a lesser extent for casters, but not for tanks and melee IMO)

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Quarts View Post
    The issue isn't that the guide doesn't accomplish it's goals. It's that it's not really a guide to "serious" raiding. It's more of a guide to just being a semi-decent player.

    Considering that one of the suggestions was to "watch encounter videos", it's safe to assume the guide isn't aimed toward anyone wanting to get into a world first, region first, or even realm first guild.
    You're completely correct, it's not aimed at anyone wanting to get into a world or region first guild (maybe realm first/second) - but I said that repeatedly in the Introduction. It seems like a lot of people just disagree in the title of the guide, considering in my Introduction I address all of the points people keep making against it. To this, I say that what I had in mind was simply give the foundation for what's necessary to develop into a serious raider, especially to someone who may not understand what all that entails; it's not meant to be "read this guide and you will be epic", it's more like "take the things in this guide to heart, mull that over for a couple months of hard work and attention, and you might be on your way to being exceptional".

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarts View Post
    If you're wanting to preform at a world class level, you need to possess/build the skills to analyze logs, use simcraft and build your own ideas of what you need to be doing during new encounters; not mimic other people's ideas.
    Again, you're right... this is also something I harp upon a lot in the guide:

    Quote Originally Posted by LSPrimigenia View Post
    I do believe, however, that seeing and reading the in-depth details of my play-style and the preparations I take may at the very least cause you to pose similar questions to yourself, and that it raises notions or ideas that may not have occurred to you before – if anything it should just allow you to more clearly view and improve your own ability as a raider. Hopefully, it will also cause you to learn to approach each fight from an analytical problem-solving perspective, and to cause you to discover your own “pro-tips”.
    More than anything I just think that it's important that, as you said, to build your own ideas of an encounter, decide what works for you, and learn to trust your judgment.
    Last edited by LSPrimigenia; 2013-03-08 at 12:05 AM.

  17. #37
    The Lightbringer TEHPALLYTANK's Avatar
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    Heh, one of the things mentioned reminded me of a common event that happened on my previous server. A new guild would form for hardcore raiders, they would push ahead in the first 3 months and get top on server then they would completely fall apart due to a large portion of their raiders having atrocious attitudes. The funny part is that each time this happened it was the SAME people who had the insanely arrogant attitudes joined the new guild, this happened about 4 times during wrath when I was still on that server.

    With regards to raid awareness as a tank I find that keeping my health bar in top left corner has given me the habit of keeping my camera facing just so that each time I glance there I can also check raid position. Healers do have it easier on camera positioning thanks to the fact that their facing has no impact on nearly all of their spells. I typically keep my camera at 25 yards out so that I can easily tell who is where by seeing their char models, I do move it to 50 yards on certain fights where the boss is so large and I need to see their whole model (will of the emperor) or I need to see the room more than I need to keep track of my position.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Quarts View Post
    If you're wanting to preform at a world class level, you need to possess/build the skills to analyze logs, use simcraft and build your own ideas of what you need to be doing during new encounters; not mimic other people's ideas.
    It may be just me, but I don't think that using a trusted source within your classes community for theorycrafting information, or stat weights on gear is mimicing someone else, it's just knowing where to go for a specific set of information. /shrug
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  19. #39
    Warchief Thereign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simjanes2k View Post
    The only question I have from the guide...

    What kind of raider smokes weed during progression? I know plenty who drink during farming and such, but does that really happen?
    I know lots of players that do, and honestly they're all quite good. It's not for everyone, though.

  20. #40
    Field Marshal Nighthawk1027's Avatar
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    Posts like this are what make the game seem too easy to the un-trained eye. Noobs learn too much from reading strategy and advice and then when they manage to clear a raid they think they're the shit and start complaining about content being too easy.

    STAHP IT!

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