President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has died

[artemishunter1]

uhh guy is a murderer, just look it up. If he tried to do half that stuff in a 1st world country he would be impeached and thrown in jail, however, in Venezuela hes revered as a hero for killing his opposition and silencing his critics.

Thats the thing. He was not in a first world country. He would not have done the things he did if he was in a first world country. But for his country, he did what he had to do. You have to judge based on a context rather than black and white or you would start doing something stupid like creating democracy in a tribal society.

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 06:43 PM ----------

I remember reading a few days ago that some were already suspecting he was dead. I hope the next leader will be better for the people's sake.

He is popular among the working class. The next leader will be better, but for the highly connected families.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

So Artemis killing his opposition and silencing his critics is ok? Yeah sorry but that doesn't fly.

[artemishunter1]

So how long have you lived in Venezuela? He was a bad president, he was a bad human being. He ruled from hate, even his best ideas where horribly applied.
27 years I lived there, I had to see him slowly dismantling everything that worked, taking anything he wanted, bringing down great industrial companies.
He was a socialist, but he wanted everyone to have nothing, not to share everything. Constantly lashed out against higher education because they would not bend to his will. He might have had ideals at one point, but they where corrupted by hate...

yet for some reason he is popular.

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 06:45 PM ----------

So Artemis killing his opposition and silencing his critics is ok? Yeah sorry but that doesn't fly.

consider his political opponents are just as shit as he is.

[Underverse]

He was a fine leader. Idk why everyone thinks he's terrible. I mean, he did some bad things, lot of inflation, ruined sections of the economy, and didn't do much to fight crime. But, he also drastically reduced poverty, built infrastructure, and reduced inequality. He was a socialist, which is why Americans hate him, and he didn't sell us his oil or something.

Edit: Oh yeah forgot bad freedom of press. Willing to overlook that for the good he's done.

[Buckwald]

Hugo Chávez’ presidency has been a disaster for the Venezuelan people. Chávez’ "Socialism of the 21st Century" changed Venezuela from one of the most prosperous and politically free countries in Latin America to one of the least competitive and most repressive countries worldwide. Venezuelans who go to the polls today will ponder many of the President’s policy failures, including a long list of Chávez’nblunders in the last year alone.


Under Chávez’ rule, oil-rich Venezuela has become one of the least economically competitive countries in the world. In 2012, the country ranked 126 of 144 in a study by the World Economic Forum. According to the report, Venezuela now has some of the lowest scores worldwide in functioning of public institutions, trust in the justice system and domestic competition. It has some of the highest scores in terms of regulation, trade tariffs, and rules that deter foreign investment. The country has an inflation rate of 26 percent, and has also suffered several food shortages this year.


Venezuelan infrastructure has been falling apart under Chávez. On August 15th, the Cupira bridge near Caracas collapsed despite repeated warnings from engineers that it was in disrepair. Last month, poor drainage infrastructure led to nationwide flooding, resulting in over 400 families losing their homes and 1,500 people ending up in shelters. Chávez also mismanages Venezuela’s oil wealth. Since the government effectively took control of the national oil company in 2004, it has become much less efficient and production is 25 percent lower than when Chávez took office. Accidents are common—an offshore oil rig sank into the sea in 2010 and an oil refinery explosion in August killed at least 48 people. Despite sitting atop the world’s largest proven oil reserves, Venezuela now imports and rations gasoline.


According to USA Today, Venezuela has the fourth highest murder rate in the world and is now the most violent South American country. Between the time Chávez took power in 1998 and 2012, kidnappings have risen from a few hundred annually to a record of 16,000 in 2011. Homicide rates have nearly tripled and suspect arrests have fallen by 61 percent. Only eight in every 100 murder investigations lead to an arrest. Murder of police officers has risen by 45 percent in the last year alone. Violence is much worse for Venezuela’s inmates despite Chávez’ campaign promises of prison reform. A prison riot on August 24 left 26 people dead and 43 injured after inmates took over the compound and held it for four hours. Venezuelans are 20 times more likely to be killed in penitentiaries than outside of them. More than three hundred people have died and 572 have been injured in Venezuelan prisons this year alone.


Venezuelans have also witnessed alarming revocations of political liberties during Chávez’ presidency. On September 10th, Chávez decided to withdraw from the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. He regularly targets media who expose his failures. He recently arrested two journalists for writing a satirical article about his leadership. In addition, he demanded the names of voters who participated in the opposition’s primary election last February, just as he did to those who unsuccessfully voted to remove him from office in 2004. Chávez has banned foreign funding for civil society watch dogs.

[Underverse]

Really Buckwald, did you even read that

[Buckwald]

Yes I did. And that's just one brief article about how terrible he was.


Also, article with sources: http://reason.com/archives/2012/10/0...-for-venezuela

[Underverse]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...lection-data#_


That once has nice pics

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 06:58 PM ----------

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...331625534.html

Aljazeera is more objective than most of the US media, which is where I assume you got your piece.

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 07:00 PM ----------

Yes I did. And that's just one brief article about how terrible he was.


Also, article with sources: http://reason.com/archives/2012/10/0...-for-venezuela

Free minds and free markets? I don't think you found an objective article, especially considering that Chavez implemented successful socialism.

[Buckwald]

Aljazeera? Objective? Really?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...lection-data#_


That once has nice pics

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 06:58 PM ----------

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...331625534.html

Aljazeera is more objective than most of the US media, which is where I assume you got your piece.

I've only just read from this thread so saying bias had a hand in it(You didn't say to me specifically but still) is inaccurate.

[Deleted]

./careface

[Underverse]

Aljazeera? Objective? Really?

Yes? Not sure what you're getting at here

[Raidenx]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...lection-data#_


That once has nice pics

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 06:58 PM ----------

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...331625534.html

Aljazeera is more objective than most of the US media, which is where I assume you got your piece.

---------- Post added 2013-03-05 at 07:00 PM ----------



Free minds and free markets? I don't think you found an objective article, especially considering that Chavez implemented successful socialism.

Define Successful

[Underverse]

I've only just read from this thread so saying bias had a hand in it(You didn't say to me specifically but still) is inaccurate.

Yeah I was just guessing, turns out I was right. American media hates chavez.

[jemd13]

He was a fine leader. Idk why everyone thinks he's terrible. I mean, he did some bad things, lot of inflation, ruined sections of the economy, and didn't do much to fight crime. But, he also drastically reduced poverty, built infrastructure, and reduced inequality. He was a socialist, which is why Americans hate him, and he didn't sell us his oil or something.

Edit: Oh yeah forgot bad freedom of press. Willing to overlook that for the good he's done.

"Drastically reduced poverty" doesn´t sound right...he might have reduced it, but nothing major. He did some good stuff, asides from that, yes, he was terrible.
There is innocent politicians in jail for going against him, a couple of them who have cancer and are NOT recieving medical care. People forced to leave the country for going against him. Closing/shutting down a national TV channel, also, for going against him. LOTS of inflation. The "Guardia Nacional" (I assume that´d be the army in other countries, not sure though) who are supossed to protect the people and the constitution do not let people protest against Chavez.

Also, the country is more divided than ever before, and his death wont change that. Because, the reason he got so much support from most people in the country is because most of the people in the country are in poberty, and have been since before he came to be our president. What did he do? He paid attention to them, no, not in the right way, but he did pay attention to them, and brought "an illusion" of medical care and other services to them, which they didn´t have before (I say an illusion, because it is not real medical care, they do get some hospitals, but those hospitals have no resources, the medics that work there graduated in like 3 years if they were from here, or are brought from Cuba, which, if you ask me, is not really good). He got the support from that big sector of the country by paying attention to them, talking about them during speeches and dividing the country, making his followers think that us (who are against him/dont like his government) are evil people that worship the US and capitalism and just want to destroy the country.

There you go, that is why he was so bad, yes, I´m saying this from the Point of view of someone who is against his government, but then again, I do not deny that he did some good stuff.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah I was just guessing, turns out I was right. American media hates chavez.

And I'll ask again did he really kill those who opposed him and silenced his critics? If so then he wasn't that good.

[Buckwald]

Aljazeera is hardly objective. It's like I'm reading talking points straight from ABC news or something. Any way, Seinfeld is on.

[Korgoth]

If Venezuela is socialism when it is successful, then it is clear that socialism is a very bad idea.

[Underverse]

Define Successful

Yes, uh, reduced poverty, almost eliminated illiteracy and increased education, reduced financial inequality, reduced unemployment, increased quality and coverage of healthcare.

Now what he did bad: Did not control inflation, did not allow extensive freedom of press, did not do enough to control crime and homicides.

I'm not saying he was perfect by any stretch. But he isn't the terrorist the US makes him out to be.

[Austilias]

Here's hoping Venezuela makes the transition and adopts a functioning political ideology.