[Arcane] Doesnt seem that bad!!

[Methusula]

I just noticed something else, Arcane DPS is closer to a healer/tank as it is to the top dps.

TOP DPS : 138kdps
ARCANE : 94kdps - difference is 31% (from top dps base)
TOP TANK: 68kdps - difference is 27% (from arcane)
TOP HEALER: 66kdps - difference is 28% (from arcane).

Wow. Yeah, that just screams poor balancing decisions on their part. We already now we are on their radar so I'm guessing they will gather some more data before making any hotfixes.

[Xzan]

Well well well... This doesn't surprise me one bit.
I just hope they manage to hotfix this before I lose my raidspot for being shitty dps So far I'm flying under the radar just thanks to 5.1 reputation... :|

[Kodaz]

Anyone else tried a full crit build with arcane?

I can't be bothered working out the maths but I'm wondering whether it's actually better than full mastery, since you don't really make use of 100% mastery anyway given the higher mana cost to AB. If you dump all that mastery into crit, then you are increasing the chance of doing 200% damage each spell cast and you are always going to have some mastery even if it's only 30%. I've just noticed that esp on cleave fights, stacking crit seems to do a lot more damage than stacking mastery. I'm doing about 10k less on single target compared to live prepatch too with a crit heavy build.

Movement still sucks balls but I'd like to hear some other thoughts on this crit idea. I'm sure zomgdps can shed light on the maths and whether i'm in fairyland :P

[Breakee]

Frost got buffed, but single target still sucks...
So, Fire is a hybrid one..
Arcane got nerfed...

We all need to respec, or start to use a second spec slot, aint...

Don't forget that fire got nerfed too =)
Was really necessary , seeing the 5.1 numbers ... right ?

They indeed couldn't wait a bit

[Methusula]

Anyone else tried a full crit build with arcane?

I can't be bothered working out the maths but I'm wondering whether it's actually better than full mastery, since you don't really make use of 100% mastery anyway given the higher mana cost to AB. If you dump all that mastery into crit, then you are increasing the chance of doing 200% damage each spell cast and you are always going to have some mastery even if it's only 30%. I've just noticed that esp on cleave fights, stacking crit seems to do a lot more damage than stacking mastery. I'm doing about 10k less on single target compared to live prepatch too with a crit heavy build.

Movement still sucks balls but I'd like to hear some other thoughts on this crit idea. I'm sure zomgdps can shed light on the maths and whether i'm in fairyland :P

I tried a full crit build with Arcane on the PTR because I was mainly going in there to see how Fire scaled with new gear. It worked out to be like 10% behind a full Mastery RoP build, so I don't think it will be a real option.

[jlwvolsfanjr]

Well well well... This doesn't surprise me one bit.
I just hope they manage to hotfix this before I lose my raidspot for being shitty dps So far I'm flying under the radar just thanks to 5.1 reputation... :|

same thing im hoping ive been giving them the excuse that i never played frost b4 but that should only hold up for so long.

[Tyresias]

Well theoretically arcane in full BiS t15 gear is top as shown by simcraft however please keep in mind it's going to be a good while to get a full BiS set also it is only during a patchwork fight. Fire from my tries so far with a perfect rotation with around 500 ilvl is well let's say abysmal and frost is pretty good. So since there are a lot of fights with movement in T15 realistically arcane will be the weakest spec. Fire will pull ahead of frost with the proper amount of gear so around 515-520 ilvl depending on what gear upgrades we get.

[Dunkman]

Well theoretically arcane in full BiS t15 gear is top as shown by simcraft however please keep in mind it's going to be a good while to get a full BiS set also it is only during a patchwork fight. Fire from my tries so far with a perfect rotation with around 500 ilvl is well let's say abysmal and frost is pretty good. So since there are a lot of fights with movement in T15 realistically arcane will be the weakest spec. Fire will pull ahead of frost with the proper amount of gear so around 515-520 ilvl depending on what gear upgrades we get.

Yeah if you can get off the bench to get gear I guess you can eventually get enough gear to be mediocre instead of awful.

[tomblits]

I want to tell you that I have raided this week as arcane and I did not feel like I was nerfed to last. I wrote the ToT stratagies for my guild and I was raid leading, which I don't usually do and it had a huge impact on my DPS for some fight just because I was not concentrating on DPS.

This is our Iron Qon kill worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-nj35aliaxw1kgjsb/sum/damageDone/?s=942&e=1594#Specdfood
The fight is a good example of Single Target DPS with raid mechanics that require movement.

This is our Council Kill worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hy6l1w886vq9h4ug/sum/damageDone/?s=4632&e=5085#Specdfood
This fight is a good example of a Multi-Dotting fight.
We two shot it and it was my second fight with the new arcane rotation so I could easily do much more damage with some more practice on this fight to min max.

Personally I spent most of the week trying to min max my rotation while also trying to learn the new mechanics of the bosses. I feel like I am not the best representation of Arcane mages but you can clearly see we are not bottom of the pack, and we can easily be in the top 5. If you look at where simcraft has arcane: simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T15H.html supposedly we are the top spec in T15 heroic gear. I cannot tell you why arcane is parsing so low on raidbots but it probably has something to do with the fact that our rotation has changed and the sample size is very small.

I made a video guide for 5.2 arcane and I don't want to post that in another thread and have it turn into another thread discussing viability of arcane so I'll just drop it here: youtube.com/watch?v=1hzY6vhOw9Q&hd=1

[Tyresias]

As soon as i switched to frost my dps was competitive enough to get my ass off the bench so that's fine and with gear and going back to fire in a few weeks it should be fine considering the scaling.

Also Tomblits from what i seee you had considerable more gear then me guessing before ToT you had around 509-510ilvl for arcane also on a patchwork fight i said aswell that arcane should pull better. With mine when i tried it it was pretty bad to be honest. When I get up to what you have numbers should be similar. So arcane while not optimal is of course usable as you said(didn't check the gear of you raid members so that might influence it aswell).

[TheoriesLA]

I want to tell you that I have raided this week as arcane and I did not feel like I was nerfed to last. I wrote the ToT stratagies for my guild and I was raid leading, which I don't usually do and it had a huge impact on my DPS for some fight just because I was not concentrating on DPS.

This is our Iron Qon kill worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-nj35aliaxw1kgjsb/sum/damageDone/?s=942&e=1594#Specdfood
The fight is a good example of Single Target DPS with raid mechanics that require movement.

This is our Council Kill worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-hy6l1w886vq9h4ug/sum/damageDone/?s=4632&e=5085#Specdfood
This fight is a good example of a Multi-Dotting fight.
We two shot it and it was my second fight with the new arcane rotation so I could easily do much more damage with some more practice on this fight to min max.

Personally I spent most of the week trying to min max my rotation while also trying to learn the new mechanics of the bosses. I feel like I am not the best representation of Arcane mages but you can clearly see we are not bottom of the pack, and we can easily be in the top 5. If you look at where simcraft has arcane: simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T15H.html supposedly we are the top spec in T15 heroic gear. I cannot tell you why arcane is parsing so low on raidbots but it probably has something to do with the fact that our rotation has changed and the sample size is very small.

I made a video guide for 5.2 arcane and I don't want to post that in another thread and have it turn into another thread discussing viability of arcane so I'll just drop it here: youtube.com/watch?v=1hzY6vhOw9Q&hd=1

Exactly, sample size is extremely small and people cant reliably predict movement as arcane this early in tier (due to not knowing boss mechanics) which hinders our dps substantially. Arcane isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. I tried out fire early this tier and quickly dropped it for a more consistent arcane spec. It seems fire only really shines on damage increasing boss mechanics like Jin'rohk, Primordius, and Horridon where you can line up cool downs effectively. When I get my t15 4 piece I may give fire another shot.

[Malfecto]

snip

I'm trying to get a handle on the fights other than Jin, because I can see how moving RoP would probably not be that big of a deal, but I am curious about Council in particular as well as Tortos.

First, on council, did you not have to move much from sand or charges? I found in our attempts that I had quite a bit of movement from gathering for Frostbite, moving from the charge, or moving from the sand. Now this is 10 man, perhaps in 25 man, you spend less time doing this? Are you precasting your RoP in a planned spot or recasting as you need it?

Secondly, why is there such a huge discrepancy in damage from the Council fight to Tortos? I haven't had an opportunity to attempt him yet, so I don't have a full grasp of the fight, but it looks like you are moving so much you can barely get casts off?

Anyway, just trying to understand. I appreciate the video. The only thing I don't agree on is Council being a multidotting fight, but maybe the perspective, again, is different for 25 man over 10 man.

[spaace]

Arcane is actually pretty decent.

rop, mastery. keep nt up.

abx4, am, am, barrage. repeat.



better then fishing for procs in frost.

[schwarzkopf]

Arcane is actually pretty decent.

rop, mastery. keep nt up.

abx4, am, am, barrage. repeat.

What is this AM you speak of ? I can run out of mana before an AM proc.

Around 10% dps from AM procs, and rarely at a 4 stack. That + 20% nerf = where I'm having problems.

[Malfecto]

better then fishing for procs in frost.

Yes! This is why I'm so frustrated. Fire just doesn't carry any consistency, dry spells on FoF procs are making me feel like I'm playing a freshly geared fire mage waiting for a heating up proc.

I haven't tried arcane. I guess I can dig into the bank and spend a little more on another respec to see how it plays. I wasn't bothering with all the naysayers, and I still don't hold much hope for it in practical terms considering how much movement I have already seen, but I'm willing to give it a whirl I guess.

My only saving grace right now is my 10 man doesn't have anyone to replace me with.

[jtmzac]

Stop thinking about frost procs as a different version of fire. If you don't want to be spamming frostbolt a lot you won't enjoy frost.

[NPI]

Actually, its better if you watch your mana than sticking to a specific rotation.
Always insert extra AB after AM's, if you are closer to 100%. Also, don't hesitate to use Barrage when you are very close to 85%.

I found the mana regen is very low, if you "accidentally" use 1-2 more ABs then its very hard to recover.

Also, its interesting that in Simcraft we are top DPS with a haste/rop build (so not mastery/rop).

[Firebert]

What is this AM you speak of ? I can run out of mana before an AM proc.

Drop Fire Blasts (and even Frostfire Bolts) into your rotation if you want to fish for AM. Your DPS may suffer though.

[Hasufer]

Stop thinking about frost procs as a different version of fire. If you don't want to be spamming frostbolt a lot you won't enjoy frost.

Heard!
And I must add - where is the actual HUGE difference anyways? I tend to miss it.

Frost = Spam Frostbolt's and use procs from fof/bf + keep bomb up. Use cd accordinly.
Fire = Spam Fireballs's and use pyro "procs" in between, keep bomb up and fetch a decent combust (use cd accordingly).
Arc = Spam some ab's, use am procs and eventually a barrage + keep bomb up. Use cd accordingly.

Not really much different cept from visuals and a slight dps variation on e.g. movement and multiple-target fights.
1. You shoot ya main dmg spell (filler).
2. You keep a bomb up
3. You use your procs wisely.
4. You use the cd's accordingly to which spec u play.

Only thing, and the thing that makes fire pwn later on, is the fact that you dont have a lot of "rng" procs once u reach the ilvl 520 or so, making it more reliable overall than a % based proc on fof/bf/am in frost/arc which stays the same, regardless of gear(scaling)

[jtmzac]

And I must add - where is the actual HUGE difference anyways? I tend to miss it.

Agreed. I made my account here just because after seeing the mop beta I was annoyed at how similar the specs were.

The only real difference is fire has ignite and arcane has mana management (sort of). Frost just has more push on cd buttons.

We're meant to be the high dps turret class and thats fine except we're missing the "high dps" part of it. Some more unique mechanics for each spec isn't really too much to ask for either.

We just have to hope 6.0 is to mages what 5.0 was to warlocks.