Page 14 of 34 FirstFirst ...
4
12
13
14
15
16
24
... LastLast
  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by brirrspliff View Post
    nope, i think it's exactly this reason. the only (if not all, by far the most) 25m guilds left are the ones that "mean it". serious raiding guilds. on the other hand, there are 10 mans like the one from the original poster of this thread; "LFR raids" who try their luck and get disappointed. you just don't have these guilds in 25m.
    It just feels as way too much of a biased explanation for me to buy into without any further evidence. I'm not even sure how you infer much of what you say in your post. The original poster simply said he had trouble with a certain part and certain aspects of the fight and asked for tips on how to get past it. Are you saying there are no 25 man guilds like that? How can that be a reasonable conclusion?

    As I said, in my humble opinion the difference in kill ratios between 25m and 10m Horridon is just way too extreme to be explained simply by '25 man guilds are good, 10 man guilds are bad', even if for some reason this seems to be the most popular explanation offered by the 25m raiders in this thread.

  2. #262
    "Friends&Family" 10m guild didn't get past Horridon.
    So they don't affect the numbers for Council/Tortos/Megaera/etc...
    So those numbers are a valid view of the situation.

    Council 25m: 25.8%
    Council 10m: 4.9%

    Tortos about even at 10%.

    Megaera 25m: 26.7%
    Megaera 10m: 5.6%

    Ji-Kun 25m: 9.7%
    Ji-Kun 10m: 14.5% (yes, 10m is higher)

    Durumu about even at 3%.

    Primorius 25m: 13.3%
    Primorius 10m: 9.5%

    Dark Animus about even at 4%.

  3. #263
    Horridon didn't feel overtuned at all. We killed him in the 4rd pull, and then spent the rest of the evening wiping at Council (17 trys). The way I see it, it's a steady increase of difficulty for the first three bosses. Actually, we wiped more often at the trash before Horridon than at the boss himself.

    The only thing we found difficult about the boss was the Frozen Orbs, so make sure you have some space to move on the 3rd door. If you have problems getting down the adds, try two-healing the encounter, it was pretty easy to heal.

    Also make sure your whole group has an average item level of about 500. That's what the boss is tuned for, and I assume if you don't have that gear yet, then you also don't have the skill to beat him with lower gear.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Tingol View Post
    That just shows that tortos is easier on 10 most likely and I assume it is the case since it was troubleing more then other bosses last night (25 man cleared up to ji kun)

    Look you can keep arguing all you want and I dont really care to make "one side" look harder. The fact is that ALL 25 man guilds that survived till now are pretty serious about what they are doing and will have much much higher % of succes than 10 man as there are loads of 10 man guilds out there who as i said are "friedns and family" guilds.

    I raid 25 man only 9h/week and I always clear content (talking about HC), most of the content I clear I do on 10 man as well and I'm not afraid to say that some fights last tier were harder on 10 man in HoF that we did (even though we killed it easier since we had more gear and experiance)

    Bottom line is some fights are always harder on 10 or 25 man and maybe horridon is. but if it is it is 5-7% harder than on 25 and be sure that some fights are harder on 25 man. Difference is not that big

    If you really think about what I'm saying here you will understand that those numbers do not represent the real thing (once again yes it might be slightly more difficult)

    EDIT: I know players from good 10 man guilds on my realm who said the boss is a joke, we said it is joke as well on 25... what could that mean? hmmmm
    It's more to do with how bad Blizzard is at scaling the difficulty curve as you go through the bosses in the raids. Just looking at 25m, 1st boss is 26%, 2nd boss is 12%, 3rd is 26%, 4th is 10%, 5th is 27%. It's ridiculous for it to bounce back and forth that wildly.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  5. #265
    The Insane det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    18,501
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It's more to do with how bad Blizzard is at scaling the difficulty curve as you go through the bosses in the raids. Just looking at 25m, 1st boss is 26%, 2nd boss is 12%, 3rd is 26%, 4th is 10%, 5th is 27%. It's ridiculous for it to bounce back and forth that wildly.
    Hmmm...reminds me of Lady DW on hardmode in ICC - if ppl wouldn't have been able to switch HM / normal on and off during the progression, many more guilds would have been stuck in this first wing. I guess people expect a "learning" curve or a difficulty progression, I just wonder if it is a fair expectation. Obviously you want the last2 or 3 bosses to feels special, but tuning 12 bosses like that...dunno. Then again I am no game designer or pogrammer, so I won't comment on "how bad" Blizzard is.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  6. #266
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The apotheosis of all Deserts
    Posts
    5,031
    While I won't say that he is overtuned particularly harshly, the number of adds that you get in 10 man can very quickly pile up. This is not as much of an issue in the 25 man version where you simply have way more DPS players than you do Trolls running out.

    It comes down to that, really. Overtuned? The enemies don't have a ton of health and so long as your not wasting time DPSing the boss or not prioritizing important adds, you shouldn't have that many problems.

    That said, A few more Adds, or two Dinomancers even, would drastically balance the difference out between Mobs vs Players.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  7. #267
    Horridon is all about interrupting the adds and dispelling whatever still gets through, 25m benefits from this because you've got better access to dedicated interrupters and more Mass Dispels.

    Having more healers in 25m also means having more people that are used to dispelling. The trouble with this fight on 10m is although you theoretically have classes that can dispel, unless they have a healing offspec they are very unlikely to have their UI set up for dispelling. That means mouseover macros and properly configured Grid/Healbot, something every healer has but few others.

  8. #268
    We one-shot it on 25N (with geat mostly ilvl 505) without any trouble
    But everything was planned ahead :
    - dedicated kicker on each kickable add
    - target dps priority carefully respected
    - healers asked to have their dispell always on cooldown, etc).

  9. #269
    I think the lot of the problem here has been said a million times before, it's about interrupt.

    But the major difference is the average ilvl of the gear of the raid. People who said "we had no problems even on our alts" probably still have alts with average gear levels of 500+.
    The main issue is for people who have cleared normals, but didnt get far in the heroics. These people have itemlevels in the 490-496 category. And if you just dont have the gear to burn down the adds fast enough you just get overwhelmed.

    My guild was 4/6 HC in T14, and our item level average was 494. It's not like once you clear your first heroics your items suddenly are 504 since you have access to them, they also need to drop, and that takes time.

    We were managing by the skin of our teeth, (we didnt actually kill it yet). I think if your gear is lower than what we have it's getting really really hard. Also we had 2 resto druids and 1 shaman, because we dont have access to priests or monk healers. It's all very setup dependent in 10m what you can handle.
    If your gear is over 500, im sure this fight is easy enough.

    Also im curious to the people saying "im not in a good guild, we only got 10/16HC last tier"... you're still WAY higher geared than 90% of the people coming here.

  10. #270
    I'll start by saying that I'm usually the LAST person to cry about content difficulty, in general I like the challenge and feel that it gives good players motivation to be better, and overall it's been missing from WoW for quite some time. However, I do feel this particular fight in 10m is either "over-tuned" or bugged, or maybe a bit of both. Our juggernaut is the second door, even using time warp.

    My group got a slow start in T14, then we had to weed through a few subpar players before we ended up with our current comp. As a result we ended up 2/16H, with all things considered we felt lucky to have gotten that far, and were looking forward to excelling in ToT.

    Seems everyone here who claims this to be very doable is ilvl 500 or better, with at least 5/16H T14 on farm. So you mean to tell me that in order for the SECOND BOSS of a new tier to be a reasonable encounter you have to have almost half of the previous heroic content on farm? How is anyone supposed to gear out by downing only Jin'Rohk once a week? Do we really have to go back to doing normal ToES, or start working on heroic ToES to get the gear for the second boss of ToT?

    Right now the average ilvl for my group is 496. Most of my raiders are experienced from back in BC, and have extensive heroic experience in all raids since then. We're getting roflstomped in here, and I can't even call anyone out for failing at any particular thing. We're simply just being over-run.

    Also, everyone seems to be calling out Priests (or MWs) to be the winning factor due to mass dispel. We have a ranking holy/disc priest, and the mana cost for dispels is killing her. Mass dispel costs 40k mana. With a 300k mana pool that's a cost of 13% for dispels alone. While I agree that mass dispel is key to this encounter, it simply can not be sustained at the current rate for a 15 minute fight. We also have a spriest for dispels, but with every little bit of dps needed for the adds, his mass dispel is really only for emergencies.

    Here is our logs from last night - worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iii6bwqvyza5miwd/ (had to omit the h t tp : / / and w w w b/c mmo says im not cool enough to post the link, wtf?) Please note that the dmg for our rogue and warrior is significantly lower than normal due to the priority we have to put on interrupts.

    If we need to just man up and find a way to do it, then I'm cool with that. Or if there is a bug, or tuning issue than I'm fine with that as well. Either way any type of response or nod from a blue ASAP seems warranted, given the amount of people getting smashed.

    Any positive feedback from our logs is would be welcome from any experienced players
    Last edited by Judaest; 2013-03-07 at 02:30 PM.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Hmmm...reminds me of Lady DW on hardmode in ICC - if ppl wouldn't have been able to switch HM / normal on and off during the progression, many more guilds would have been stuck in this first wing. I guess people expect a "learning" curve or a difficulty progression, I just wonder if it is a fair expectation. Obviously you want the last2 or 3 bosses to feels special, but tuning 12 bosses like that...dunno. Then again I am no game designer or pogrammer, so I won't comment on "how bad" Blizzard is.
    The intent of a difficulty progression is that people do the earlier/easier bosses they can to gear up for the later/harder bosses they can't. Cockblocking people early in the raid destroys their ability to progress without going to LFR (which Blizz has said they don't want).

    On HM, it's fine to yo-yo the shit out of the difficulty because people can just switch to normal and pick out their whichever bosses they want to progress on for HM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  12. #272
    I am Murloc! Anjerith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The apotheosis of all Deserts
    Posts
    5,031
    Quote Originally Posted by Qwerty006 View Post
    Also im curious to the people saying "im not in a good guild, we only got 10/16HC last tier"... you're still WAY higher geared than 90% of the people coming here.
    A couple things about this;

    - Most people that boldly claim to be amazing - are not.
    - Raid Members that don't actually do anything significant (and I am hugely sorry, but DPS is neither hard nor particularly involved) always spout out the "ah this stuff is easy" nonsense.
    - While there isn't any real DPS check in Normals this tier (although I suppose Horridon is pretty close to fitting that bill), Guilds that have been doing t14 Heroic are going to have an easier time, not just because of gear, but because the Heroic versions of t14 very closely mimic t15 normals in terms of the complexity of the fights. I.E. There is a lot going on in each encounter that can potentially kill you, rather than the one or two mechanics that normal-only raiders would have been exposed to in the previous tier.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  13. #273
    Wat, we 1 shotted this boss without even stepping into the PTR. Tuning seems absolutely fine.

  14. #274
    Felt a bit overtuned. My guild is 16/16 heroic from the previous tier and we tried making a group with half alts and half mains to get more gear for our mains. Admittedly our alts are only around 480 item level but our mains are around 505 / 510 so overall we probably have a normal mode geared group. We were wiping on the ice trolls.

    We are going to go back with our mains tonight and I don't expect to have any problems but we have more gear than 90% of groups. I think this boss will be a major problem to guilds that have only done normal modes which is probably about 80/90% of the guilds out there.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Azlarn View Post
    Wat, we 1 shotted this boss without even stepping into the PTR. Tuning seems absolutely fine.
    And what's you iLvl? From what I'm seeing anyone who's claiming one shots were in groups ilvl average above 500 and closer to 510. My group is in the low to mid 490's so we are having problems powering through the adds.

    There is no doubt that if your group is will geared from all heroics you'll plow through this boss's adds like nothing. For those of us who only tackled a couple heroics and not geared to the hilt are going to struggle.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Judaest View Post
    I'll start by saying that I'm usually the LAST person to cry about content difficulty, in general I like the challenge and feel that it gives good players motivation to be better, and overall it's been missing from WoW for quite some time. However, I do feel this particular fight in 10m is either "over-tuned" or bugged, or maybe a bit of both. Our juggernaut is the second door, even using time warp.

    My group got a slow start in T14, then we had to weed through a few subpar players before we ended up with our current comp. As a result we ended up 2/16H, with all things considered we felt lucky to have gotten that far, and were looking forward to excelling in ToT.

    Seems everyone here who claims this to be very doable is ilvl 500 or better, with at least 5/16H T14 on farm. So you mean to tell me that in order for the SECOND BOSS of a new tier to be a reasonable encounter you have to have almost half of the previous heroic content on farm? How is anyone supposed to gear out by downing only Jin'Rohk once a week? Do we really have to go back to doing normal ToES, or start working on heroic ToES to get the gear for the second boss of ToT?

    Right now the average ilvl for my group is 496. Most of my raiders are experienced from back in BC, and have extensive heroic experience in all raids since then. We're getting roflstomped in here, and I can't even call anyone out for failing at any particular thing. We're simply just being over-run.

    Also, everyone seems to be calling out Priests (or MWs) to be the winning factor due to mass dispel. We have a ranking holy/disc priest, and the mana cost for dispels is killing her. Mass dispel costs 40k mana. With a 300k mana pool that's a cost of 13% for dispels alone. While I agree that mass dispel is key to this encounter, it simply can not be sustained at the current rate for a 15 minute fight. We also have a spriest for dispels, but with every little bit of dps needed for the adds, his mass dispel is really only for emergencies.

    Here is our logs from last night - worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iii6bwqvyza5miwd/ (had to omit the h t tp : / / and w w w b/c mmo says im not cool enough to post the link, wtf?) Please note that the dmg for our rogue and warrior is significantly lower than normal due to the priority we have to put on interrupts.

    If we need to just man up and find a way to do it, then I'm cool with that. Or if there is a bug, or tuning issue than I'm fine with that as well. Either way any type of response or nod from a blue ASAP seems warranted, given the amount of people getting smashed.

    Any positive feedback from our logs is would be welcome from any experienced players
    Obviously there is a gear difference, however your raids DPS seems low, my raid's top DPS'ers did 220k on that fight. Yes, it was 25m, and yes we have better gear, but I highly doubt 14 ilvls and 10->25 = 100k+ dps difference. Browsing through the logs of a few of the DPS in there, it does indeed seem to be a DPS problem. Specifically, your warlock/spriest should be multidotting nearly everything (esp. if it's a dps issue) as well as a few other things they're missing, which is a large DPS loss.

    Whether or not it's "tuned too hard for normal modes" is something I can't answer, but your DPS have room to improve.

    PS: Ranking for healers really doesn't mean much, because healing with weak healers makes an above average healer look amazing, but having all amazing healers compete makes them all look average. Not saying your priest isn't amazing, but just saying ranking is irrelevant. Also, has she tried holy for this? There is little burst, so holy's raw throughput might be superior. As well, your holy paladin might consider taking hand of purity since you're often losing DPS to DoT's.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    And what's you iLvl? From what I'm seeing anyone who's claiming one shots were in groups ilvl average above 500 and closer to 510. My group is in the low to mid 490's so we are having problems powering through the adds.

    There is no doubt that if your group is will geared from all heroics you'll plow through this boss's adds like nothing. For those of us who only tackled a couple heroics and not geared to the hilt are going to struggle.
    490 means you have MV T14 norm gear, you are not supposed to vae easy time in T15 even on norm, go back to T14 to farm more (we do and we have all 496+ in raid) or stop complaining and wipe harder.

  18. #278
    The issue, as mentioned above, is that is is both the 2nd boss in the instance and its idiotically tuned for people who weren't clearing heroic mode T14 for a long time.

    If this was the 5th, or maybe even 4th boss, it would make more sense. But its crap to tell a guild like mine (started in January, got to 4/16H and has been clearing 16/16N for a month) that despite being in heroics T14, we now have to either go clear MORE heroic mode T14 or wait for LFR to be geared enough to do the 2nd boss of the new Normal tier.

    At least give us 3-4 bosses (that aren't as easy as that trash mob in the 2nd room) that are tuned to 490-495 WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE CLEARING NORMAL MODES HAVE. That way, we could gear up a bit each week and make progress. What a 2nd-boss cockblock says is "have fun in LFR for a month before you can enjoy the game again."

    Who does that benefit? It makes guilds who were succeeding unable to, will completely and totally stop struggling guilds from enjoying ToT, and the hardcore guilds that have no problem with these will continue to breeze through them after heroic attempts each week.

    The new blizzard mantra: If you aren't raiding top-100: go do LFR!

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Obviously there is a gear difference, however your raids DPS seems low, my raid's top DPS'ers did 220k on that fight. Yes, it was 25m, and yes we have better gear, but I highly doubt 14 ilvls and 10->25 = 100k+ dps difference. Browsing through the logs of a few of the DPS in there, it does indeed seem to be a DPS problem. Specifically, your warlock/spriest should be multidotting nearly everything (esp. if it's a dps issue) as well as a few other things they're missing, which is a large DPS loss.

    Whether or not it's "tuned too hard for normal modes" is something I can't answer, but your DPS have room to improve.

    PS: Ranking for healers really doesn't mean much, because healing with weak healers makes an above average healer look amazing, but having all amazing healers compete makes them all look average. Not saying your priest isn't amazing, but just saying ranking is irrelevant. Also, has she tried holy for this? There is little burst, so holy's raw throughput might be superior. As well, your holy paladin might consider taking hand of purity since you're often losing DPS to DoT's.
    Thanks for the insight gnor, what is your guild so I can reference the logs for spells?

  20. #280
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    457
    Quote Originally Posted by Raxxed View Post
    We cleared it with 3 alt groups, didn't post the slightest of threats.
    Not sure why people are complaining..
    "Gosh, I have a 518 ilvl. I can't imagine how anyone else would have a problem with this encounter...." /baffled /sarcasm off.

    Your main and your alts are more geared than a lot of folks that didn't finish clearing heroic MSV, HoF and ToES. It's not hard to figure out why you were able to brute force this fight smart guy.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •