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  1. #301
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    6700 guilds have 1 boss in T15 down. Apparently that is pretty much every guild that attempted to raid on the day of the patch (and the day after). However by the end of T14 almost 40 000 guilds raided normal. So 34 000 guilds haven't even started or not submitted info to wowprogress or whatever.

    2200 guilds have killed 2 bosses on normal (among them Horidon). That is 35% of the guilds who went and tested this new tier. Too few? Overtuned? Just right?

    It trickles out from there to 2 guilds having done a full clear. Make with those numbers what you want, everybody.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  2. #302
    We did manage to one shot without any idea what was going on (25man), BUT I do know that kicks are supposed to be huge, and if I recall correctly, you need to kite some orb thing from the frost guys as they do a lot of avoidable damage. Also I do also remember having no adds up at all during any transition, perhaps healers are not getting kicked?

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Sethesh View Post
    you shouldn't be expecting to go in and kill things if you gained access to N ToES 3 weeks ago. I'm not sure why people are complaining that such gear requirement (if it's even that, I'm sure it could be less with properly executed tactics) is too high.
    I think it's all depends on your philosophical mindset on raiding. I'm going to wager that a good chunk of the casual minded guilds believe that if they can clear a tier of content, they are ready for the next tier. I don't believe they feel it should be required to have that tier on farm for at least 6 weeks, before they are ready to move on. I've run T14 for a while and now I'm ready for something new aka different. I'd say a healthy chunk of the current raiding population is less about wanting more harder challenges then they are about having "different" challenges. A rough example is, I never finished the base Angry birds, but I bought Angry birds outer space.

    I understand that the Heroic crowd hates everyone else that isn't heroic and we're all worthless maggots that is ruining their game and we're all real life losers etc etc. At some point the Heroic crowd needs to move on and let that go. WoW normal mode raiding is a social game slightly ahead of farmville. Normal mode raiders as a whole, don't want to walk into a new tier and get rofl stomped by the 2nd boss maybe boss 5 or 6 maybe. I'll predict (and I'm sure the heroic crowd will say good riddance), is that if Horridon doesn't get changed, it will break the will of a fair number of guilds and just like with T11 and T12 in cata, that will lead to people quitting.

    I know the argument, People should want to get better...etc..etc. Those people do heroic raiding. My opinion is people who do normal mode raiding, wants something harder than LFR to do with their friends.

    And OBTW, as Always, I'm not screaming\crying\anything for nerfs. Just calling it as I see it
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-03-07 at 04:30 PM.

  4. #304
    What people need to remember in this thread is that there are the same amount of adds in 10-25 man. Except you have 2.5 times more people. Which means, more interupts, more dispels. When it's 10 man you're limited and it really is a comp check. We have spent 3-4 hours on horridon and we have gotten past the 2nd door 3-4 times, most of the time we had 1-2 people dead.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Non-heroic 10m raiding guild here. Average raid ilvl of about 490.

    Once we got the coordination down, we managed to 3 shot Horridon. Two tanks swapped after each gate, 3 healers (2x pally, 1x priest).

    P1 should be pretty easy. Just don't stand in the sand.
    P2 was a bit of a challenge. All of our dps that had interrupts focused a priest and did their best to kick casts. Burned down adds as fast as possible. Had to single-target cleanse poisons. Each pally took a group and dispelled them.
    P3 isn't too bad. All dps stacked on top of add-tank. Popped Heroism + CDs and we all moved towards the last gate while nuking down adds. Having a fixed movement helped us avoid frost orbs and kept the raid organized. Add-tank should use defensive CDs if needed.
    P4 wasn't too difficult either. Just avoid totems and kill adds.

    Once you get to last phase, it's a basic tank and spank. Tanks will take big hits every once in a while so tanks/healers should be ready to pop defensive CDs.

    Other tips:
    1. Have a melee dps be designated orb controller. Call out when orb drops. I believe you can move while you are controlling the orb. So no excuses for dying in void zones.
    2. This fight is similar to Garalon. Requires the entire raid to perform their role well. We spent about 2 hours wiping before we solidified our strategy. Once we had that down, it was just a matter of execution.
    3. To answer a question above - Priests cannot MD the poison. Not sure about the disease.
    I know what you are saying but you are oversimplifying your attempts by saying you 3 shot him when you actually 17 shot...

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Above post is a perfect example of how guilds should approach challenging content.

    You have to be willing to put in the time to progress, even if it takes multiple nights and 100 attempts.
    The major problem here is mostly that the encounter seems to be tuned to be fairly simple on 25m, while being tuned to be quite challenging on 10m. If it was tuned to be more similar for both raid sizes, I wouldn't mind as much, because that would simply show Blizzard's intent in keeping this raid tier more challenging than T14.

    As it stands though, most of the 25 man raiders in this thread are simply telling us 10 man raiders how easy this encounter is, and how they went in there and 1-4 shot it. The only 10 main raiders on here who tell you a similar story are those who already outgear the encounter by having a large amount of T14 HC gear to help them out. In reality almost every 10 man raider I've seen comment in this thread, who does not have an ample amount of T14 HC gear, is telling us how challenging this encounter really is.

    Is it an absolute monster of an encounter? No, it is not. Does it seem to be tuned very differently for 10m and 25m? Yeah, yeah it does.

  7. #307
    If you are having troubles with Horridon, I don't wanna see you attempt Council. Now THAT is overtuned...

    As for Horridon, it's just a matter of people not standing in shit, getting dispells fast enough on poison guys, and blowing all of your CDs (Hero/Lust included) during the Frost trolls gate. Focus the big guys, and have the raid stack up on one person (ideally not the tank, who is going to run around grabbing adds). Whenever you see a frost orb, GTFO as soon as possible. Once that gate is down, it's very easy.

    You should have tank swap on Horridon only when you are done killing all the adds from one gate.

    Good luck !

    Edit: All of our 3 10 man groups cleared it. So it's totally doable. Only 1 of our group managed to cleared Council though.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    I know what you are saying but you are oversimplifying your attempts by saying you 3 shot him when you actually 17 shot...
    I don't think my statement is really misleading here. I state that we had to figure out the coordination and once that was done...we 3-shot him. I think in the end it took us somewhere in the neighborhood of about 20 pulls to finally down him (with the first few pulls just being a...let's just see what this is like wipes). Compared to other bosses like Garalon or Elegon, that's nothing.

    My point was really to just show people that an "undergeared" 10m raid can definitely take him down and maybe help out the other guilds by sharing how we ended up doing it. For the sake of all the repair gold and time that went into developing our strat, I hope people don't oversimplify the work we put into it...haha.

  9. #309
    So what seems to be the problem on the third door? We went in as 25, and after an hour and a half of wiping on the 2nd door (extremely frusterating, seems most people weren't interrupting, and we don't have a MW monk), we finally got past it cleanly and had NO problems on the third door. We are going back in tonight to down him, and I'm a bit worried that getting past the 3rd door was a fluke. Is there some specific strategy we need to use on the third door?

  10. #310
    horridon aint overtuned u guys just doing it wrong we took him down on our 2nd try,we did BL on gate 3 and got the bloodlust with us at gate4,reading some post that ppl are wiping at the poisen gate just nuke the priest/interrupt them there ur prio targets before the dinomancer comes and make sure all gate mobs are dead before the next gate mobs spawn so u wont have sand traps at poisen and poisen at ice and etc..

    and then yeah we came at council got us several wipes 4-5 before downing but our problems was the sand guy when he spawns adds and when ya kill them they leave a pool he kept taking 70% of our melee down with the add pools and electric shield guy we were killing ourself cuz of over nuking so when we slowed down on him it was a easy kill.
    Last edited by Xtremerr; 2013-03-07 at 04:33 PM.

  11. #311
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grimsanta View Post
    So what seems to be the problem on the third door? We went in as 25, and after an hour and a half of wiping on the 2nd door (extremely frusterating, seems most people weren't interrupting, and we don't have a MW monk), we finally got past it cleanly and had NO problems on the third door. We are going back in tonight to down him, and I'm a bit worried that getting past the 3rd door was a fluke. Is there some specific strategy we need to use on the third door?
    Problem on the 3rd door in 10 man is 2 adds come out at the same time and you have 1 tank to take those 2 adds that use MS. I guess in 25 if you have an extra druid they could go bear for a while, a dps war could toss on a shield and go deff stance, etc etc and off tank (hell could even just 3 tank it) and basically remove that problem. In 10 man you wont have an extra person to do that and still have the dps etc to down it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 04:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Xtremerr View Post
    horridon aint overtuned u guys just doing it wrong we took him down on our 2nd try,we did BL on gate 3 and got the bloodlust with us at gate4,reading some post that ppl are wiping at the poisen gate just nuke the priest/interrupt them there ur prio targets before the dinomancer comes and make sure all gate mobs are dead before the next gate mobs spawn so u wont have sand traps at poisen and poisen at ice and etc..
    mind providing your armory so we can see your gear? I keep seing so many people say it's easy but without seeing there gear it's hard to tell if they have a great strat or if they are heroic raiders that OUTGEAR the mechanics and just dps burn it all to hell!

  12. #312
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Above post is a perfect example of how guilds should approach challenging content.

    You have to be willing to put in the time to progress, even if it takes multiple nights and 100 attempts.
    In no way should any normal mode boss be taking 100+ attempts.

    The average wow player will put up with a dozen wipes (at most) before jacking it in and doing something entertaining instead. My guild has cleared T14 and done 1 HC in T14, we simply don't have the ilvl to do horridon easily. We'll perservere and get there in the end after a lot of repair bills with the main run (the keen guys who are great and will wipe all night) but if I take my 2nd run (the friday night, super relaxed, lets have a beer and talk nonsense while raiding normals crew) I won't even bother trying past jinrok'h as things stand, there would be no point.

    Not only don't they have the ilvl, they won't be arsed wiping for hours just to kill a purple game dinosaur.

    Boss is overtuned for a normal mode. End of story.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

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  13. #313
    We struggled on Harridon the first night, came back in last night and killed him after 5 attempts or so. Those of you saying council was harder must be doing something wrong. After all the wiping on Horridon we 5 shot council. Pretty easy and didn't seem all that chaotic from a tanking perspective.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    Non-heroic 10m raiding guild here. Average raid ilvl of about 490.

    Once we got the coordination down, we managed to 3 shot Horridon. Two tanks swapped after each gate, 3 healers (2x pally, 1x priest).

    P1 should be pretty easy. Just don't stand in the sand.
    P2 was a bit of a challenge. All of our dps that had interrupts focused a priest and did their best to kick casts. Burned down adds as fast as possible. Had to single-target cleanse poisons. Each pally took a group and dispelled them.
    P3 isn't too bad. All dps stacked on top of add-tank. Popped Heroism + CDs and we all moved towards the last gate while nuking down adds. Having a fixed movement helped us avoid frost orbs and kept the raid organized. Add-tank should use defensive CDs if needed.
    P4 wasn't too difficult either. Just avoid totems and kill adds.

    Once you get to last phase, it's a basic tank and spank. Tanks will take big hits every once in a while so tanks/healers should be ready to pop defensive CDs.

    Other tips:
    1. Have a melee dps be designated orb controller. Call out when orb drops. I believe you can move while you are controlling the orb. So no excuses for dying in void zones.
    2. This fight is similar to Garalon. Requires the entire raid to perform their role well. We spent about 2 hours wiping before we solidified our strategy. Once we had that down, it was just a matter of execution.
    3. To answer a question above - Priests cannot MD the poison. Not sure about the disease.
    A million thanks Paul. And to anyone else who can reply with winning strats / experience for a <500ilvl 10m. Kind of pointless for 25m ilvl510 raiders to be posting 'omg lol dis boss is ez mode delete yur toons rite nao baddies" on here. One good look at the logs and you can see that the disparity between 10 & 25 is huge.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Obviously there is a gear difference, however your raids DPS seems low, my raid's top DPS'ers did 220k on that fight. Yes, it was 25m, and yes we have better gear, but I highly doubt 14 ilvls and 10->25 = 100k+ dps difference. Browsing through the logs of a few of the DPS in there, it does indeed seem to be a DPS problem. Specifically, your warlock/spriest should be multidotting nearly everything (esp. if it's a dps issue) as well as a few other things they're missing, which is a large DPS loss.

    Whether or not it's "tuned too hard for normal modes" is something I can't answer, but your DPS have room to improve.
    It couldn't possibly be that a raid that wipes on door two or three doesn't get the opportunity to Patchwerk-burn a boss that's taking 200% extra damage.

  16. #316
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    In no way should any normal mode boss be taking 100+ attempts.


    Not only don't they have the ilvl, they won't be arsed wiping for hours just to kill a purple game dinosaur.

    Boss is overtuned for a normal mode. End of story.
    I guess that then concludes any debate we ever had about the game in the old times. Every MC or BWL or SSC boss was a hardmode. And then there were the insane hardmodes of Naxx and SWP. The game didn't introduce HMs in WotLK, it introduced normal modes.

    I treasure those reads...he was boss 5 in MC, right?

    http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/thread-6762.html
    http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/thread-6609.html
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  17. #317
    I've heard a couple of different things now - is the health of the adds the same on 10 as it is on 25, or not? I was under the impression that it was. I recall the frost guys on the third door had around 10mil health, was it the same in 25m?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulleedot View Post
    I don't think my statement is really misleading here. I state that we had to figure out the coordination and once that was done...we 3-shot him.
    Not to nitpick or derail the topic, but I have to agree with Drummerboy that you're oversimplifying it by saying you 3-shot it when you spent 20 attempts on it just because you were still learning it. You could just as easily argue that the first two "official" attempts you were still learning it then as well, or else you wouldn't have wiped on those - should've focused on this guy, shouldn't have stood here, etc. Otherwise I could kill the boss and exclaim "ohhh, that's how it's supposed to be done! Well then all those other attempts didn't really count since we obviously weren't doing something right, so we'll just say we one-shot this." But that's just my opinion anyway, I'm sure someone will disagree with me.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Michelangelo View Post
    I don't think anything in this fight need tuning, but maybe change the Disease to Magic to make it removable by more classes! Severely punishing for 10m Normal groups that can't pick whatever classes they want to bring.
    As far as I know, every healer can cure diseases except shaman and Druid if you don't have a pally. It's highly unlikely that you can't clear diseases effectively, and its not like they 1 shot people anyway.

    Like blizzard said, normal mode is simply about executing mechanics once you have a reasonable amount of gear from 5.0 normals. If you think horridon or council are overturned, that's because you just aren't doing things correctly and probably expected to just mash your face over your keyboard (I.e you think overturned means you can't kill it after 5 pulls without planning for each part of the fight). If your raid can't figure out how to execute the fights even after thinking about it, you'll get more help next week when more videos are released.
    Last edited by DetectiveJohnKimble; 2013-03-07 at 04:58 PM.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Forumchibi View Post
    I've heard a couple of different things now - is the health of the adds the same on 10 as it is on 25, or not? I was under the impression that it was. I recall the frost guys on the third door had around 10mil health, was it the same in 25m?



    Not to nitpick or derail the topic, but I have to agree with Drummerboy that you're oversimplifying it by saying you 3-shot it when you spent 20 attempts on it just because you were still learning it. You could just as easily argue that the first two "official" attempts you were still learning it then as well, or else you wouldn't have wiped on those - should've focused on this guy, shouldn't have stood here, etc. Otherwise I could kill the boss and exclaim "ohhh, that's how it's supposed to be done! Well then all those other attempts didn't really count since we obviously weren't doing something right, so we'll just say we one-shot this." But that's just my opinion anyway, I'm sure someone will disagree with me.
    I see your point and it's valid, but since that wasn't the point of my post, I don't think it's an issue.
    I saw a handful of posts from people saying that it was helpful so, it's clearly serving his purpose. Also, is 20-something wipes a lot for progression on the first week a raid came out? Everyone in our guild would say that we're a "casual" guild so I was under the impression that what we went through wasn't hardcore or anything.

  20. #320
    As 10 man I felt overwhelmed, too many adds for the amount of possible dps (we were running on normal with some heroic items) we had to lust to barely get beyond the second door

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